Looney_Tunes

In January 2008, I was praying to God for some way out of a cold, loveless marriage. My then-husband was emotionally shut down and silent, except for periods of explosive anger. I remember telling God that if I had to endure this for 30 more years I would probably jump off a bridge. God's answer? You haven't done everything yet. Great, God. There is almost nothing left of me. What else do You want? The next day, I followed some link from somewhere and landed on Joel and Kathy's website. My husband got on board for a time. We went to an intensive. But ultimately, he decided that he didn't want to change. Walking away was easier than growing up. He left and found someone else who was willing to be his mommy, and I learned that God really does take care of His girls. 6 1/2 years later, I am still here ... but that is about to change. God has been telling me for a few months now that my time here is coming to an end - that there are other things He needs me to do. He hadn't made it clear exactly when it was to happen, so I've just been waiting for Him to let me know. This week, He did. I have been incredibly blessed by my time here. I have learned a lot. I have rejoiced with people over their successes and prayed over (and been thoroughly frustrated with!) those who weren't willing to do the things they needed to do. My cattle prod has gotten quite a workout! I don't know how many hours I've put in on the calls and on the forum, but I don't regret any of them. Above all, I have met people whom I never would have met otherwise. Some of them have come and gone, and I find myself wondering what happened to them. Some of them have become my closest friends. Some I have met in person, and some are still just a post, a voice on the phone, and maybe a picture on Facebook. But every one of them has touched my life somehow, and to me, that's priceless. So thank you for your love, prayers, and support. And thank you, Joel and Kathy, for your ministry and for the opportunity to serve here. May God continue to help you reach hurting couples and spread the message He has given you.

Justhoping, I'm going to address a couple of your comments if you don't mind. I'm not speaking for MJ ... she can certainly speak for herself! ... but you brought up a couple of ministry principles here that I'd like to comment on. Our understanding of marriage here is based on Ephesians 5:25, where God says that a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. If he is to give himself up, then certainly he can give his cigarettes up. Your comment suggests ... and please correct me if I am not understanding you ... that MJ somehow does not have the right to ask Z. to give up smoking. She does. It doesn't matter if he was smoking when they married or not. We all grow and change, and things that were working, or at least tolerable, 10 or 20 years ago may not be now. Similarly, if MJ had a habit that Z. felt was interfering with their relationship, he would have the right to gently bring it up to her. That is a little different. It is not something you could control. If your husband had not realized before you were married how important it was to him to have children - and sometimes people don't - then he needed to be willing to either let that go, or adopt. Smoking is a behavior. Not only is it simply not necessary, it's harmful. There is absolutely no benefit to Z. to continue it. Yes, it's difficult to stop, but anyone who has the necessary level of motivation can stop. People do it all the time. There is plenty of help out there for people who want to quit. And I know MJ - she would not expect him to quit cold turkey. She would be loving and supportive. So the real issue here is not the smoking at all ... it's the condition of Z.'s heart. He is faced with a choice - his marriage, or his cigarettes. One would think it would be a no brainer. An expensive, dirty, potentially lethal habit, or his wife? And the fact that it is not a no brainer for Z. - that he is not willing to say Of course! I love you. It's going to be hard, and I'm going to need help, but you are more important than a pack of cigarettes - speaks volumes. A man who is not willing to give up cigarettes is most likely hanging onto some other things that God would like him to give up - pride and control, for example. In the end, this is really about surrender to Christ. He who loses his life will find it.

Nice! And it probably wasn't all that difficult, was it?

You can post as much as you want. We don't have a limit and there's no need to apologize. This is why the forum is here. There really isn't anything else I can tell you or him. We're just gonna have to wait and see what he does. I would think about setting a reasonable time limit for seeing some progress, however.

This kind of has a 2 part answer. The first part is yes, if the issue really isn't something critical, let her have her way. You might have to take a few hits on the chin in the process, but if it makes her feel like she is important and valuable to you, it's worth it. So whenever possible - whenever it's not really going to make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things - go ahead and do it her way. It sounds like your wife has a control temperament that makes it hard for her to be responsible for her decisions ... or she has learned that through her life experiences. When you come to those issues where it does make a difference, the way you approach it can make it or break it. Let's talk about dealing with your son. I'm not sure if you've said how old he is - if you did, I don't remember. Are you correcting him in a way that might be causing him to get upset over something other than just not getting his way? Are you allowing him to throw a fit in front of his mom when you have said something he didn't want to hear? He also needs to learn that he can control his emotions and his behavior. From your description I am getting the impression that your wife's issue is not that you have corrected him, but that she has to deal with the fallout. Don't let that happen. If it's another issue, do your best to stay calm and just lay out the options for her. Honey, we could do A or B here. Do you have a preference? If she chooses one, go with it. If it doesn't work out, don't rub her nose in the fact that she chose what to do. If it's your choice and it doesn't work, just calmly say Yeah, that didn't work the way I thought it would. Don't take it as a personal attack. She is operating out of a very hurt place and isn't going to always be rational. The thing to realize is that deep down inside, she knows she is not always being fair. She needs to grow some too, but it is not your place to point that out. You just need to be the rock. Stay strong and steady and don't freak out or get angry ... at least not in front of her.

Ha! Good luck with that! Joel will nail him to the wall.

Awesome! OK, it sounds like you have turned into a pretty decent husband. I'm going to let you live.

That's because you have not changed. Pro tip ... if you find yourself trying to convince your wife that you have changed, you haven't. She is not stupid. She sees how you behave. When your actions are different, no one will have to tell her, least of all you. She will go bragging to her girlfriends about how wonderful you are. Trust me. So how do you think this is going to happen? Why? What is the real problem here? And please do not answer with what you think I want to hear. It doesn't take very long before men in this ministry learn what they are supposed to say. They become excellent parrots, and then they make no progress because they are not dealing with what they are really thinking and feeling. Your wife and I already know that you don't really believe what we teach here, and that you think she should have more responsibility in this process. Just about every guy is there at some point in this process, but we can't work through it with you because you are not really talking to us. You are simply saying I know I should listen to my wife. Well, yeah, you should. But we can't really go anywhere with that, because you are not telling us what you are really thinking and where you are struggling. One of the things I often see here amongst the more passive men is the belief that somehow, knowledge just automatically translates to behavior. So you read and study and take notes and somehow feel that poof! you will just start doing the right thing. It doesn't work that way. You actually have to take control of your behavior - something you probably don't think you can do - and choose to act differently. It's the actions that will rewire your brain, not the other way around. You cannot think your way into better behavior. You behave your way into better thinking. I really wish I was getting the sense from you that you want to change, but I'm not. I'm getting the feeling that you are willing to learn all of this information, but that you are not willing to actually do something with it. I'm getting the sense that you believe that the ability to spout off all the knowledge you gain here will somehow satisfy your wife. I really, really hope that is not the case, because somehow you need to see that a relationship that never touches your heart is not a relationship at all. That's what you have with your wife and with God, and neither of them are happy with it.

We know. And you can keep protecting him if that's what you want to do. It's your choice. However, your marriage is unlikely to improve if you continue to do that. We ask him to read your posts because he is not listening to you in person. Many times a man will get it when he sees it in writing. The reason we don't recommend that you read his posts is that, frankly, they are a lot of BS. You will most likely find yourself angry and agitated, and we see no reason to put yourself through it. However, just like everything else we tell you, it's a recommendation. It's your choice to follow it or not. If you really want to read his posts, go ahead. We know. We have worked with countless men like him. Heck, I was married to a man like him! We know that he twists and spins things to put himself in the best possible light. We know to take everything he says with a grain of salt. We know to read your posts first,and then go to his, because his perspective is going to be radically different from yours. So trust me when I say that we don't just automatically believe him. We know that his thinking is wrong, and therefore his understanding of whatever took place is most likely going to be wrong. Nope, not rude at all. We understand. He probably doesn't. That's actually OK. The part that's not OK is that he doesn't seem to want to get it. He is not exhibiting any desire to learn here. He does not believe you or us. He is hoping that he can do a few things to pacify you without really needing to grow and change. We don't take it lightly either. We are a marriage restoration ministry, not a just-get-divorced ministry. But you are miserable, and God does not want that for you. If your husband won't change, then you essentially have 2 choices - stay in the marriage and continue to be miserable, or leave and move forward into whatever God has for you. And we are not just talking about you here. Your husband is cold, distant, and emotionally abusive. There is no way anyone could convince me that he has a close relationship with God. If you stay in the marriage, you will enable him to continue holding you and God at arm's length. That's not what God wants for him either. Unfortunately many people have to hit rock bottom before they really come to Christ. I'm sure your husband would disagree with this, but his actions show that he has had an intellectual conversion, but not a heart conversion. God may need you to get out of the way so He can deal with him. Exactly. And if he is not willing to give up his agenda for you - and it sounds like he isn't - then why are you staying with him? He clearly doesn't love you. I don't want to sound like I'm beating you up. You are allowed to choose to stay with him. It's your life, and I understand that for some people, staying is the lesser of 2 evils. But I want you to know exactly why you are staying. I want you to have the legal information you need, so that you know what things would look like financially if you divorce. I want you to really understand that, from my experience - both personally and in this ministry - the odds of him changing are very low, and that things may continue to get worse, not better. I want you to understand how much God loves you and how it grieves Him to see you treated like this. I want you to understand that you are worth so much more than what you are getting. I don't want you to stay because you are afraid you can't make it without him, or you don't want to be alone, or you somehow think that God wants you to stay and be mistreated. I don't want you to stay because you don't want to allow your husband to suffer the consequences of his actions. I don't want you to stay because you feel sorry for him. I don't want you to stay because you think that maybe tomorrow, he'll get this - he might, but if he does, he can pursue a relationship with you even if you're not together. If you are going to choose to stay, then make the choice with your eyes wide open.

That's awesome! I too have been blessed with men in my life who are showing my boys what it means to be a Christlike man. That is a priceless gift, and I don't take it lightly. I'm glad you have family who are willing and able to reach out to your kids. And I'm glad you're finding friends. I don't know what I'd do without mine, both in and out of this ministry. We aren't meant to do this life thing alone. So it does sound like you are getting better! D What factors led you to stay with your husband? I know that for me, I was in a "shut up and pray" church, and I was told I was not allowed to divorce him. At the same time, I was afraid that if people knew how bad it was, those who did believe it was OK for me to divorce him would figure that if I was stupid enough to stay, I deserved what I got. So I was danged if I did and danged if I didn't. I'm not asking that question to beat you up ... I just think it's helpful to look at, so that you can recognize areas that might need to change.

Unfortunately, that's pretty common. So the question becomes ... what are you going to do about it? In the end, you cannot change him. All you can do is decide how much you are willing to tolerate, and put boundaries and consequences in place. If you want to continue to live with him and make the best of it ... well, we don't recommend that, but it's your choice. If you want to get out from under his abuse, I would suggest talking to an attorney and finding out your legal rights, how much support you might get, etc. However, you cannot separate unless you are prepared to go through with a divorce if necessary. If you do, it will backfire and he will become more abusive. Of course the goal in separating would be to make him realize that he is about to lose everything. Hopefully he would care enough about that to make the changes he needs to make. The problem is that many of these passive guys do alone very well, because alone is not risky. They can live in that universe inside their head and not have to deal with scary things like emotions and responsibilities. So the reality is that if you ask him to leave, there is a good chance that he won't pursue you. But do you really want to be with someone who will only stay with you if he gets his way? Do you want to be with someone who doesn't love you enough to make himself the least little bit uncomfortable for your sake? I didn't, and that's why my ex is my ex.

[smilie=to funny.gif] [smilie=to funny.gif] [smilie=to funny.gif] Uh huh. That's why I put so many hours into working with both of you. Yeah. I am divorced because my ex kept doing the things J is doing.

That was going to be my next question. The first step in healing is to stop believing his lies. He did such a good job of indoctrinating you that 4 years later, you are still carrying his baggage. Time to drop it. The next step is to figure out who you are and what you want. As you start to picture that and start taking steps toward making it happen, more and more of his garbage will fall away. So what do you want to be when you grow up?

That's interesting. So your view of marriage is that ~ Each partner must contribute financially Raising children is of less importance than earning an income The partner who does not earn an income is somehow taking advantage of the one who isDid you learn this view in childhood, or is this a result of the way your husband treated you?

His position in the community was based on lies. If anyone had known the truth, he would've been knocked off his pedestal pretty quickly. Interesting. Let's look at that for a minute. Betraying him indicates that you somehow feel you owe him something. What would that be?