housewife22

Today has not been good. On Tuesday night, we watched some of the videos. In one part of the video, Joel was talking about the 2o hugs, kisses, and smiles, and about how one wife started cleaning like crazy after only 8! I said, "Did you hear that?" Anyway, fast forward to today. I have the boys that I babysit today, so I had to get up early before they got here. I started cooking pancakes. After a while around 8:10 I went back in the bedroom and asked if he was getting up. One of the things he knows I want from him is for him to get up at a decent hour. So he said he was getting up, and that the smell of the pancakes was making him sick. (I don't know why-it's kind of weird that he reacted so bad to the smell of the pancakes.) So he gets up and starts doing stuff around the house, getting ready to leave. He does not initiate anything positive. At all. He is actually kindof grumpy. Then he makes some egg salad for him to take to lunch, and leaves the bowl of it sitting out on the counter. He is about to leave, so he gives me a hug, but no kiss. And it was the most boring, not heartfelt hug you can imagine. The whole point of the hug is for me to feel loved and that I am going to be missed. That did not come across at all. (You think maybe its because he wasn't thinking it??? nah. ) So then as he is on his way out the door I ask him if he was just going to leave the egg salad out on the counter. I reminded him that he did that with tuna salad earlier this week and it started to smell. (and I ended up cleaning it up.) He asked if I could put it in the fridge for him, which I did. (maybe I should have said no?) So then he gets home a few hours later. The youngest boy was sleeping. Ok, I think it should be obvious that the little one was asleep. Our house is not that big, and he is only 10 months old- it's not like he's going to be in the other room by himself unless he is asleep. But my husband goes into the room where the little one is sleeping and then shuts the door HARD behind him!!! I went in there and said "ARE YOU CRAZY?!?!?! X is sleeping in here!!!" And instead of apologizing, he says that he didn't know that the baby was asleep in there. I said "well what the heck did you think he was doing???" And then he tells me that I don't need to react the way I did. Ridiculous. Didn't even attempt an apology. This is not the first time this has happened either. So then he goes outside to clean the garage. Didn't give me the courtesy of telling me that's what he was doing though. Just disappeared outside and left me to figure it out. So about an hour later I find him in the garage moving a bunch of my stuff around. Now he has not been very respectful of my stuff in the past, so I asked what he was doing with my boxes and stuff and where he was putting it all, etc. He gave a really short answer that he was just cleaning and stacking everything better and then told me not to worry about it. I hate it when he says that!!! When he says "don't worry about it" to me he is saying, "your concern is stupid and not valid and I wish you would just shut up and quit annoying me. I didn't say anything to him about it. I know I should have. Then about another hour later I went out to ask him to come in and watch the babies for a minute so I could go to the bathroom. Normally I would have just gone with the door open so I could listen if something happened, but both babies were being fussy and since he was home I figured he could help. So I asked and then shut the door and was waiting for him to come in. A minute later he was still out there, so I opened the door and said, "I said I have to go to the bathroom. I need you to come in now." And he had the nerve to put a couple more things away while I am standing there. I know this isn't a huge deal, but after everything else, to me it just showed no sense of urgency for my needs. So as he's coming inside he asks where the 2 year old is and if he is asleep. I said "yeah, he's sleeping." So as I'm in the bathroom, with the fan on, I hear a door being opened and shut LOUD. Right next to the room where the 2 year old is sleeping. Not to mention I could hear our daughter crying. He was doing other stuff instead of actually interacting with the babies. So when I got out of the bathroom I asked him if he could be more quiet with the doors when there was a child sleeping. He said "yeah, when I know where someone is sleeping I always try to be quiet." What??? I reminded him that I had just told him that the 2 year old was asleep, and that he had been opening and shutting doors really loud in the hall right outside where the kid was sleeping!!! He tells me that he didn't know which room the 2 yr old was sleeping in. What the heck??? We have a small house!!! This kid sleeps in the exact same place EVERY TIME! I told him that, and he said he didn't know that, he's not always home when the boys are here, blah, blah, blah. I told him that he was here enough to figure it out and that he needed to think more. So that is how my day has gone. And now he's saying that I am being rude to him and that this is supposed to be about mutual respect and I haven't been giving him any respect today. And that I haven't been treating him how I would want to be treated. And I have a band/choir practice to go to tonight. He doesn't understand how much this affects me!!! It is so hard for me to even function around other people or at all when he is treating me this way. It makes me feel so dead inside, like I have nothing left to offer. It just makes me want to curl up in a ball on my bed and stay there all day, either that or just get into a screaming punching fit. But I still have responsibilities and things I have to do. Needless to say, we are going to be having a serious talk tonight. He had better be receptive to what I have to say. I am mad. This is ridiculous. We are supposed to be on the call tonight since it is Thursday. Maybe we will have a chance to talk on the call.

Thank you so much for responding guys!!! And thank you Firewalker for your encouraging words!!! It means so much!!! Just to have someone else understand how BIG of a deal this is! I don't think my husband really yet understands how big of a transformation I have experienced. I pray that he will one day. But in the meantime I am so thankful to have other people here that understand exactly what I am experiencing. I hope one day I can help others to experience the freedom and healing that I am right now. Just a quick update because I don't have much time. Things have been getting better. No fights in the past few days. My husband(he needs to get on here so I can call him by his screenname! ) has actually been being nice to me!!! Yesterday he got up early and helped me A LOT with the kids (I babysit 2 days a week) without me even having to ask. BIG DEAL. He also swept the kitchen floor! And then went to work!!! He got home early in the afternoon, and decided to take our daughter outside to play in her pool, without me even suggesting it!!! YAY!!! It hasn't been all good, but better though. I told him during the day yesterday that I wanted to spend some time together that night. He got home from work, and then someone called him with an extra ticket to the local high school's graduation. We talked about it and decided that he should go because 4 of the youth from our youth group were graduating. He did mention that maybe he should stay home because if he went it would cut into our time to spend together that night. I told him to go ahead and go, that it was part of his job and it was ok. As he was on his way out the door I said, "Maybe we can watch my movie when you get home???" (I have been really wanting him to watch a movie with me- its a natural childbirth movie. I know that's not something he would normally be into, but it's something I am VERY passionate about, and I need him to show a little interest. And I think he would enjoy the movie more than he thinks he would. Its about how most of the medical industry is just in it for the money. It's called The Business of Being Born, btw, and if you are pregnant or thinking about getting pregnant you should definitely watch it. I will warn you though- there are a few graphic scenes of women giving birth, so if that is offensive to you then this movie is not for you. ) He said "maybe" in a tone of voice like 'you know i don't want to watch that!' Ok, whatever. So then when he got home, I was on the computer, and he sat down and turned on the tv and started eating. Ok, fine, I'll let him relax for a few minutes and get dinner down. I was still hoping we could spend some time together. He did compliment my soup. (yay! And I made this soup from scratch with no recepie, and it was really yummy!!! You might think this is silly, but I think this is just one more example of how I am learning to be ME!!! I can cook dinner and make up my own recepie without having to follow the "rules" of someone else's recepie??? And without being scared the whole time that it is going to be gross, and asking my husband's advice because he went to culinary school??? Making up a soup recepie is not a big deal, but it is an example of the BIG DEAL change that has happened in me!!! YAY!!!) So the night went on, and he just kept watching tv, and I just kept sitting on the computer. I kept getting more and more disappointed. Finally I looked at the clock and it was 11. I was tired and decided to go to bed, but I didn't want to go to bed with disappointment on my heart. So I said, "can we talk for a minute???" He said yes. I said, "I have to be honest, I am disappointed. I wanted to spend some time together tonight. I was fine with you going to the graduation, but we had plenty of time to do something after you got home, but you have just been sitting on the couch watching tv all night." He said he was sorry, and that I could have suggested something after he got home. I said, "yes, I could have said something. But I don't want to always be the one initiating our together time. If I am the only one initiating it, it makes me feel like you don't really want to have together time or you don't really care, whether that is true or not. Besides, I had mentioned several times today that I wanted to spend time together tonight. So you knew! But you just watched tv all night anyway." He admitted to it, and apologized. While I do think he realized what I was saying, it was just an "I'm sorry". I would have liked more. But since this was such a HUGE improvement from before, I decided to just leave it at that. Plus I was really proud of myself for getting that off my chest and not just going to bed hurt and disappointed because I thought that he wouldn't understand or care. So we are making progress!!! YAY!!! Praise the LORD!!! So much for a "short" update!

I love the blog!!! Thank you so much for everything that you guys are doing to help get this message out there.

I have been waiting ALL DAY to get on here and make this post!!! I know the Lord gave me a revelation last night and I wanted to share, but I was babysitting all day and didn't have time to get on. Last night I was thinking about the last post I made, in particular the part where I was too afraid to be direct with my husband and tell him how I really felt about what was going on. I couldn't bring myself to say the words, "you are being selfish right now and you need to stop. Let's talk about the call and share with each other." As I was thinking about this I realized something. Our entire marriage, I have been afraid to tell my husband how I really feel. I have been afraid to be honest with him. And I realized that I never really have been honest with him. (Heck, I wasn't even honest with myself!!!) If I knew that something I wanted to say would make him upset, or if I knew that he would disagree, I would just not say it. Or if it was something so important that I had to say something, I would water my opinion down until it was unrecognizable. This is a big deal!!!!! How could we have expected to have a happy marriage if I wasn't even honest with him about what I was feeling and thinking?!?!? That is ridiculous to even say! Ok, let me back up. I am not saying all of this to take him off the hook. I am not saying that if I had just been honest with him this whole time that we would have had an awesome marriage. One of the reasons that I felt like I could not be honest with him is because he was not a safe place for me to share. There have been many many times when I would try to share something with him and he would blow me off, tell me that was stupid, tell me to get over it, etc. etc. That is not ok, and that is one reason why I felt I could not be honest about my feelings. But another reason, and I think maybe a bigger reason, comes from my childhood. My dad was very controlling. My mom was very "submissive". I didn't realize it as much at the time, but there was a LOT of dysfunction. My dad used to make a joke- "we put the 'fun' in dysfunction." Anyway, my dad was very controlling, and we (my mom, my sister, and me) were all afraid of him. Literally. Ephesians 6 tells fathers not to provoke their children to wrath. Well, my dad did that a lot. He would make messes and tell me and my sister to clean up after him. And as obedient children, we would. But that is just wrong. And after so much of cleaning up after someone who will not clean up after themselves, it just gets old. I remember vividly one time when my dad did something to really make me and my sister mad. I honestly cannot remember what he did(which I think is weird), but I remember being so hurt, and feeling like he treated us very unjustly. And most of the time when he would do something abusive, it was justified by saying that he was the man of the house and that he could do whatever he wanted to. But I remember this time, there was no way it could be justified. He had treated us(me and my sister) wrong, and we all knew it. I was talking to my mom about it(I believe my sister was there as well), and asking why? Why does dad do this? Why does he treat us this way? She would say, "Why don't you talk to him about it???", knowing full well that all of us were too terrified of him to really talk to him about it. She would say, "he's your dad! You don't need to be afraid of him!", but you could tell by the way that she said it that she completely understood why we were afraid of him, and that she felt the same way too. It was just so messed up. We were being treated unjustly, and instead of going to my dad and sticking up for her kids, she just told us to go talk to him even though she knew we were too scared of him to ever do anything about it. And by her doing that and refusing to stick up for us, our fear of him was just perpetuated. So ever since I was a child, I have been taught to be afraid to share what I am really feeling, especially when I am being treated unjustly. How crappy!!! What a rip off!!! But I am so thankful that I am going to be able to stop the cycle now!!! Now that I am realizing that I have had such a fear of sharing my thoughts and feelings I am starting to see how this has affected my marriage. I have always felt like we never truly "bonded". Like we never really KNEW each other inside and out. Well that would be impossible if I was too scared to share how I felt with him. And throughout our marriage his biggest complaint was that I didn't trust him. (Now, I will admit that the way he came about telling me this was wrong and hurtful. And that sometimes he was not trustworthy, which is a good reason to not trust him.) Well of course he would feel that way! I was too afraid to trust him with my feelings and thoughts and opinions. Now again, I am not letting him off the hook here. This post has been pretty much all about me and what I have learned about myself and what I need to change. I am going to start sharing my thoughts and feelings. I am going to start allowing myself to be vulnerable. I am going to start being honest with myself, and with my husband. I am not going to candy coat my opinions anymore. Now as I do that, it will be up to my husband how he responds to it. I am hoping that he will listen to my heart and validate me. I am hoping that he will die to himself and bring healing to me.

We got on the call last night for a little over an hour. It was good. Something interesting happened after the call though. We had been listening to the call for about half an hour when DH looked over at me and asked, "how long did you want to be on? Don't you think we should set a time to hang up?" I said, "no, I don't think we need a time limit. Lets just listen for a while longer." He said that he was thinking of listening for another half hour and then doing some cleaning around the house. I was ok with being on the call for an hour- although I would like to be on longer, an hour is a decent amount of time. I was annoyed that he was talking about getting off the call though. So we kept listening, and after about and hour and 10 minutes total on the call he said that he was going to bed. So after a couple more minutes, I got off the call too and went in the bedroom. He was just laying in bed. I was irritated that he didn't have anything to say about the call. A lot of good things had been said to a husband that was just not getting it. I was hoping that he would initiate a conversation about it. But instead he asked if I wanted to hear the new revelation that the Lord shared with him earlier in the day- a new sermon idea. When he asked that, it totally rubbed me the wrong way. Instead of initiating a conversation where we could discuss the call, and work on our marriage a little bit, he was initiating a conversation that was going to be all about him. Look what God showed ME today. Yay me!!! Now here is where I did the wrong thing. He asked if I wanted to hear about it. I said sure. I stayed "in my cage" as CHeRIsh would say, and I went along with what he wanted to do. Then he said, "That's not the answer I was really looking for. Are you sure you want to hear this?" He thought that he was being nice and looking out for what I wanted, but all I heard was him saying, "I wanted you to say, 'absolutely, I would love nothing better than to hear your new revelation!!!'" Yuck!!! I wash wishy washy for a minute, and then I told him to go ahead and tell me. So he got about 5 seconds into his "sermon", and I just couldn't take it. I just had such a wrong feeling in my spirit, like this was not supposed to be happening right now. (it wasn't! Why should I let our bedtime conversation be all about him?) So I stopped him. I said, "ok, stop, stop, stop, this isn't right." He asked me what I meant, and I did a really bad job explaining it. I didn't come right out and say that he was making the conversation all about him, and I should have. I kind of skated around the issue. Then he says, "But I'm trying to have Bible time with you!" (which is one of our issues- I need him to initiate family Bible time.) I said, "no! This is not Bible time! This is you trying to share some cool revelation you want to share with me. Bible time is when you say, 'hey sweetheart, lets sit down and read a couple of chapters together.'" He said that he understood that. Then I said, "I would like to talk about the call, and what we learned from it tonight." And I asked him to go first. So he said that what he heard on the call was a lot of women (we really only listened to 1 1/2 couples- so I guess that counts as "a lot" of women ) talking about all the things their husbands did to hurt them or make them feel unloved. I thought he was about to take it in a bad direction, but then he didn't. He said that it seemed like all these women were letting their husbands know what they were doing wrong and that the problem was the husbands were not listening. I said "yes, that's the wife's job- to let the husband know what he is doing wrong." Then he said, "But I feel like you are not doing that with me. I feel like we are going days and days and I think everything is fine, and you are not telling me if it is not, and then suddenly you blow up at me and say that you have been mad for days." He said that he wanted me to start telling him when he did something wrong like the wives on the call were doing. So that kindof hit me square in the jaw. I haven't been holding up my end of the deal. I haven't been committed to being a good help meet and holding him accountable. I have allowed myself to be paralyzed by fear. If I am going to be committed to seeing this change happen, then I have to be 100% committed to holding him accountable. No more, "I'm scared of how he will react", or "I'm just to tired of dealing with it." NO MORE!!! I have to hold him accountable!!! So that is where I am at today. Also, I had a conversation on the phone with CHeRIsh yesterday, and she thought it would be a good idea to post about it as well. I am not comfortable sharing all the details on here, so I will just say this. I have been struggling very much lately with thoughts of the grass being greener on the other side, or what if things had turned out differently. What if??? Could I be in a better place right now? Things of that nature. I know that is very vague but I am hoping maybe some of you women will be able to relate.

Hello everyone. This is my first post in this area- I have posted before in the "Wives whose husbands are working against the marriage" section. I thought it would be fitting to start a new thread in this section since my husband is now working with me and going through the Joel and Kathy material with me. A little bit of background: We have been married for 4 years. We have a daughter who is a year old. My husband works as a youth pastor in a local church. I come from a family where the submission message was drilled into our heads constantly. As a result, my mom has no identity. When my dad passed away 4 1/2 years ago, my mom went out and married the most controlling manipulative "man" she could find less than a year after the funeral. Our relationship has suffered greatly because of this. My husband grew up in a very dysfunctional home. His dad cheated on his mother several times. They stayed married, but only in name. His dad treats his mother terribly. No love there. So that is our background information, just so you have something to go off of. It has been about 3 weeks since we have been doing the J&K stuff again. CHeRIsh so kindly offered to let us borrow her video set of Joel and Kathy, and we have been watching it together. (not as quickly or as often as I would like, however.) Let me start with the good. J&K's books changed my life. I realized for the first time that I was valuable, and that I deserved to be loved. For the first time in my life, I have been able to be honest with myself. I have been able to look inside of myself and honestly say, "I am not happy." I think I was too scared to do that before. A few weeks ago, after talking with CHeRIsh, I decided that I was not going to give up until my husband would do J&K with me. I was not going to give in. I was not going to agree to do someone else's marriage book. I was not going to let him continue to tell me that their book was bunk. I stood firm and made that decision in my mind. What I didn't realize until afterwards was that this decision was the first decision I have made on my own in my entire 23 years of life. WOW! 23 years old and this is the first decision I have made without the approval of either my parents or my husband?!?!?! That is truly mind-boggling. It is such a freeing feeling. So, I came to my husband and told him that I wanted to do J&K's way. That I wanted him to do it with me. He started whining about how he didn't want to, and that he felt like the Lord was telling him to stay away from their book, and that their teachings were dangerous, blah, blah, blah. I honestly believe that the Lord gave me this response, because it was so good!!! I said, "How many times in our marriage have I gone along with something that you wanted to do, even though I knew it was wrong, and I knew that the Lord did not want us to go down that path??? I think after all that, I deserve for you to go with me on this, even though you think it is wrong." So finally after we talked about that for a while, he agreed. So we have been watching the videos together. He has spoken to Joel on the phone once, a three way call with Joel and Dead-guy. We are starting to get on the Thursday night calls every week. I have seen progress, but it is coming very slowly, and it is so frustrating for me. We(he) still have a very long way to go. I told him that if he wants to keep me, he has to win my heart back. I don't think he has thought about that much lately, but it is still very true. I see the efforts he is making, but none of it is really touching my heart. My heart is still very broken and hurting and alone. I just want to be loved!!! I want to feel that love and that desire. I want that excitement in my heart for him back. And I'm not feeling any of it right now. I love him, but I am not in love with him. And I can't be the one to fix that. He will have to win my heart back if he wants to keep me. I have been struggling with depression for several years. Now I understand why. And I am still struggling. Every time we have a fight or he does something particularly unloving, it sends me into a tailspin. I can't find the motivation to do anything. I am so tired of struggling with this. I just want to be happy again. I don't want to be depressed all the time. It is not fair for me or my daughter. I think that is all that I am going to say for now. I want to get my husband to start posting on the forum, I think it would be good for us. This is such a great community here. So many people who are willing to help, and to be honest with great advice.

Hey everyone I just wanted to give you an update on how things have been going. First of all, I am sorry for not keeping this updated. My husband flat out refused to read the book, and I was scared that you guys were going to freak out on me! Anyway, he has refused to read the book. He said he would read another book with me, so I ordered a couple of Gary Smalley books. (I remembered someone on here mentioning that they were pretty good.) I was hoping that with those books we could at least see something start to change for the good. The books have not come in the mail yet, so we haven't started them. Things have been going downhill with us though. Fights and fights and him not listening to anything I have to say. This morning I came to my last straw. We had been out of the house for 3 days in a row, basically only home to sleep. The house was pretty messy, which I was aware of, and I had a mental list of things that I needed to take care of that day. I was already a little stressed out about it. So then on his way out the door this morning, he says "Before you spend too much time on the computer(I was on the computer as he was saying this) you might want to think about jumping on those dishes and the toilet that has been dirty for 3 weeks now." I reminded him that I had not been home to clean for the past 3 days and that I knew what needed to be done and I didn't need him to remind me. He said, "As a husband that works over 40 hours a week, I think I have the right to say when the stuff arond the house is not getting done right when you stay home all day." I had had enough. I am staying with some friends tonight. I just can't be in that environment anymore. The couple I am staying with are very close friends of mine that I have known for almost 10 years, and have known my husband as long as I have. I talked with them today, and the husband is with my husband right now trying to talk some sense into him. Something has to change or this marriage will not last. I really hope for my daughter's sake that this marriage can be turned around. But my husband is going to have to make some big changes. I am for sure spending the night here tonight unless my husband comes and grovels at my feet, and even then I think I might stay here just to prove the point. But if that doesn't happen, I'm not sure when I am going back. I have to babysit kids at our house on Thursday, and then on Friday I am flying out to see my grandma and I will be gone until Monday. So hopefully that will be some time for him to think. Prayers and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I know I've said this before, but it really does mean so much to have your support. Hoping for sunshine: I agree. He is still working on his own terms. It was his idea to do the fast, and that is how he wanted to do it, not what I wanted initially (for us to read the books together). I realize that. But I also think that a lot of good could come out of "his way" if he (DH) really honestly opens his eyes for the Lord to reveal the truth to him. And I think he will. And absolutely, I still want him to read the books. I am hoping that he will change during this fast and maybe he will actually WANT to read them. I know that sounds crazy, but God does work miracles. And if that does not happen, then it is back to the original plan I guess. I see what you are saying though. That I should not just leave him alone and "let him off the hook" for these 2 weeks. That I should still be challenging him to study the other side of these scriptures. I will have to give that some thought. On one hand, I don't want to just back off completely and make it seem like I have "given up" on this new way of thinking. On the other hand, I want to give him space to let the Lord speak to him. I think that if I keep pressing the issue, that it will just turn him off even more. Don't get me wrong. If nothing happens after these 2 weeks, I will not give up. No way. I just think that it might be a good idea to back off very briefly to give him a chance, you know? Firewalker: Thanks for the concern!!! When he said that he had "ruined my life", he was saying that because that was how I was making it sound- like my life was ruined because our marriage was so bad. I'll admit- I did go a little overboard. I was just sooooo excited to be free!!! I know that he is not cheating on me. Really. He wouldn't do that. And I know I may sound like a naive wife who doesn't have a clue, but I know that he is not cheating on me. He really is a good guy, except for the marriage part. He has a great heart- that's why I married him! He is really sold out to the Lord. He has a huge heart for ministry. I know those things do not exempt someone from adultery, but trust me, that is not the case here. The reason he said that he had ruined my life is because that is how extreme I made it seem. Don't worry, I have my eyes wide open here. I am not going to be deceived by a few nice words. I really want to see a real change here. I want to have an Outrageously Happy Marriage!!! I want to feel validated, loved, and important!!! I hope I have articulated that well enough for everyone to understand. Please feel free to ask me to clarify if you don't understand something. I want to share a story with everyone. I guess its a testimony of how the Lord has opened my eyes and is helping me to see things more clearly. On Sunday morning I did not go to church because I was not feeling well. I had been up until 2 in the morning with stomach pains. Anyway, we have a sunday night service that we are supposed to be at. I told DH that I needed him to watch DD for me at a certain time so that I could take a shower and get ready to go to the evening service. I said that I needed to be in the shower at X time. Dh went to take a nap. No big deal, he had been up early for church and had a long week. He had told me before he went to his nap that he wanted to wash the cars before going back to church. So he came out of the bedroom and said that he wanted to wash the cars, and asked if I wanted to stay home instead of coming up to the church. I said that I didn't care, but that I was concerned that if I didn't come that people were going to start thinking that I wasn't really committed. He didn't really say anything and went outside to wash the cars. I came outside a few minutes later and expressed my concern that people were going to think that I wasn't committed. He said, with a lot of attitude like I was annoying him, "committed to what???" I said, "our youth ministry!" (duh!) He said, "why would they care- I am the one getting paid for it." He was getting annoyed with me. Ok, let me stop there. I realized exactly what was going on. (I know some of you are going to get on my case for not standing up for myself and calling him to the carpet for what he was doing to me, but I am excited that I was even able to identify it. I think now that I really understand it i will be able to stand up for myself more effectively next time.) Anyway, I recognized it immediately. He was getting annoyed- my concerns were not important. (let's not even mention that he could have chosen either the nap or washing the cars- he didn't have to do both and then I could have come to the church too.) He acted like it wasn't a big deal for me to be committed to the youth ministry. We have discussed before that it is really important for me to be a part of the ministry- it just wasn't convenient for him at the time. And the worst part(to me anyway) was when he said "why would anyone care- I am the one getting paid?" Man, that was a low blow. So because I am not the one getting paid, I am not important to the ministry. How belittling!!! And that is something I am already insecure about- I am a SAHM- the only income I have is a very small amount from babysitting 2 days a week. I need to be validated and told that I am important even though I am not bringing in the income- not belittled and told that I don't matter because I am not the one getting paid. I felt those old feelings rise up. In the past I would feel belittled(although I didn't know that's what it was), and then I would start feeling sad and depressed. On Sunday, I was able to identify it. But I decided to carry it out in my mind and see what would have happened in the past. in the past, I would have believed those feelings. That I wasn't important. I would have started feeling depressed, and feeling that connection with my husband slipping away. I would have been desperate for some relief- to feel happier and to feel connected to my husband again after he had essentially just brushed me and my feelings aside. So in the past, this is what would have happened. In reaction to all the things I was feeling, I would have gone up to DH about 10 minutes later and said, "are you mad at me? Did I do something to make you mad?" (of course not- I hadn't done anything wrong!!! I was feeling upset and belittled, but because I wasn't able to realize that I was just searching for something, anything, to make me feel better and connected to my husband again.) And then when I would ask DH if he was mad at me, he would say something like this, with a big amount of annoyance, "No, I'm not mad at you!!! Why would you think that?!?!? Why are you always asking me that?!?!?!" And then I would feel even more belittled. Why was I feeling all of these strong feelings, and so unhappy, when my DH was 100% ok??? How could I think that my DH was mad at me so often, when he wasn't? There must be something wrong with me. I am so glad that I was able to identify what has been happening for so long. It is just so freeing. Just to understand that I am not crazy. That I am not worthless just because I am being belittled. Just to know that I don't have to believe those lies of the enemy. Thank you all so much for helping me to see that. Sorry this was so long!!!

I meant to say housewife23.

I have been meaning to get on here for a few days and post an update, but I have been very busy, and also sick. I would appreciate some prayers for that- I have been having some symptoms that could point to something kindof serious. I am concerned. I will be calling the dr tomorrow and getting in for some tests ASAP. Prayers would be greatly appreciated. I'm sorry for the lack of details, but they are kindof embarrassing. On the plus side, today is my birthday!!! I guess I should be housewife 223 now! Ok, here is the update. I asked DH to get on the call with me on Thursday, and he didn't want to. He said that he has a "check in his spirit" about those people "Joel and Kathy", and their books and everything. He said the only reason he has not burned the book in the backyard yet is because I have been so adamant about it. I got such a bad feeling in my stomach when he said that. We talked for a couple of minutes and he said that he wanted to take the book to our pastor and see what he thought of it, and that if he agreed with it then he(DH) would reconsider. I reminded him that just because our pastor did not agree does not mean that what the book says is not true. He told me that also just because he agreed with the book does not mean it is true, but that he would be willing to reconsider if our pastor agreed. So I got on the call on Thursday by myself. I was on for about an hour and a half and then I got to talk to Joel and Kathy. It was cool getting to talk to them. They are awesome. Anyway, I was feeling so discouraged, almost hopeless, after talking to them. (It wasn't their fault, I will explain.) This feeling had started when I talked to DH that afternoon and he said that he had a bad feeling about the book, and it had been growing in intensity ever since. It was starting to get unbearable by the time I got off the phone with J&K. DH and I went to bed shortly after getting off the call. I laid in bed for 15 minutes or so, but I couldn't shake the feeling. It was keeping me awake. I got out of bed. DH asked what I was doing and I said that i was going to go watch tv because I couldn't sleep. He asked why I couldn't sleep, and I said that I felt really discouraged about everything we talked about earlier. He said, "me too." Then he said, "do you want to talk about it?" I said, "not really, but if you want to I will listen." So he started talking. I don't remember everything he said at first. But he got around to telling me how he felt about everything. He said I was making him feel like a criminal with everything I had been saying to him lately. He said that he doesn't see how I have been unhappy for the past 4 years. He said that after everything that I have said the past few weeks, that he almost wished that we had not had our baby, and that we could just split up and make a clean break. He said that he wishes he could just be like Paul and be single and just focus on ministry. He said that if we could get divorced that he would never get married again so he wouldn't ruin someone's life the way he had done with me, and then he could just focus on ministry. But now that was impossible because of our DD, and that he would never make her grow up in a broken home. Wow. I was stunned. I cried. I didn't realize that was how he felt. I don't remember how we got around to me talking, but I tried to explain myself. I said, "what I really want is for both of us to be happy." He said, "Really? Because it seems like you just want you to be happy, and if that means getting rid of me then you are perfectly ok with that." (he wasn't being a smart alec this time. He was really opening up to me.) I told him that honestly from the bottom of my heart that I wanted BOTH of us to be completely happy. I told him that it hadn't been a torturous four years, but that I was just not happy with how some things were going. He said, "but you have already said multiple times that you were unhappy. You can't take that back." And I tried to explain that the principles in the J&K book are not really what he thinks they are. I said that at first the concept of when the man gets his issues straight then the womans issues will get fixed automatically sounds idiotic at first but starts to make sense the more you look at it. I told him that I didn't want to just sit back for the rest of my life and not have to do any of the work in the marriage. I tried to explain that that is not what J&K are all about. I said, "I promise you, this is not what you think it is." I told him that I thought he was a great person(which i do) and that I just felt like he needed some work in the "how to be a good husband" area, and that that did not make him a bad person. I said, "just because I say I am not happy does not mean a death warrant on our marriage. Why do we have to look at it like: I am not happy, so our marriage must be over. Why can't we look at it like: I am not happy so lets try to fix some things???" He said that I was the one that made it seem like a death warrant by the way I had presented it. My heart was breaking at this point. I knew he was right. I said, "I am so sorry for making it seem like that. I just thought that I was going to have to resolve to live a certain way for the rest of my life, or the next 25-30 years until I just got so fed up that I couldn't take it anymore. (I was sobbing uncontrollably at this point.) And when I read that book and realized that I didn't have to live that way, I just got so excited that I went a little overboard." I was pouring my heart out to him. He reached over and put his hand on my shoulder. I could tell he was understanding what I was saying. I put my hand on his. A few minutes later, he said, "can I ask you a favor?" I said ok. He said, "I want to do a fast for the next week, maybe two, and I am going to study these scriptures(the ones on marriage) and try to get some answers about what they mean. And if I do that, can you back off on these books at least for a while?" I asked what a while meant, and he said at least for the time that he was on the fast. So I agreed, and then asked if he would do me a favor. I said that I was concerned that as he went to study, that no matter how objective he tried to be, that his subconscious would be tainted by what the church has ingrained in everyone about marriage for the past several decades. I asked if I printed some stuff out for him if he would read it, kindof as a balance from the other side. I told him it wouldn't be something from J&K's book. (I was thinking of printing out some of the studies from Toddler No More.) He said that he didn't really want to do that, and that he didn't think his mind would be as tainted about marriage as mine or maybe someone else's would because he didn't grow up in the church his whole life. So I had an idea. (from the Lord, I believe.) I said, "ok, I have another idea, kindof as a compromise if you will agree. I will print the studies out for you tomorrow, and I want to you put them in your Bible, or notebook, or whatever. You don't have to read them right away. Only read them if at some point in your fast/study time you feel the Lord drawing you to read them. (which I think has a strong chance of happening, tee hee!) And if you get through the whole fast time without feeling that drawing to read them, then you will read them for me when the fast is over." He agreed. So after that I laid down to go to sleep. I was still crying a little. DH rolled over and put his arm around me! It was so nice. He said, "you know I would never trade DD for anything." I said, "I know." He said, "do you know what I was trying to say?" I said, "yes, i understand." We talked for a little while and then drifted off to sleep. It was so nice. I really believe that something good is going to come out of this fast/study that my DH is going to do. If I know my husband (and i do) he is really going to study deep, and really going to seek the Lord. And if I know my God (and I do) I know that he will open up my DH eyes to the truth, and will work this all out for me!!! Hallelujah!!! I would appreciate your prayers during this time that the Lord would open my DH's eyes to the truth, soften his heart, and bring reconciliation to our marriage. I have had so much peace about it during the past few days. I really think the Lord is going to work a miracle during this fast. And i think that the reason I had such a bad feeling in my stomach is because the enemy did not want us to have that conversation that we had on Thursday night. We went out for my birthday yesterday and had a really good time. Dh was really a gentleman. We took a walk by the water while we were waiting for our reservation. When we ordered our food, his steak turned out great and mine was really terrible, and he offered to trade with me. It was so nice. He even opened the car door for me. I know those may seem like small things, but I think it is just a taste of the good that the Lord has in store for us during this fast. Thank you for making it through this long story, and thank you for your prayers!!!

Wow. Thank you so much everyone who responded. You have encouraged me so much. I am going to try to respond to each persons message. Could someone show me how to do multiple quotes? I can't seem to figure it out on this board. I am going to do my best to respond anyway, hopefully in a way you can follow! FIREWALKER: My DH has compared himself to Joel as we were reading, Aka: "this guy sounds like a real jerk!", implying that he would never act that way. Funny how a few sentences later Joel explains that it doesn't matter if you were as "bad" as he was- the scripture applies to everyone. Of course that part was glossed over. Sigh. Ok, I have a question about something. You said that when he called me a feminist that was manipulative, and when he yelled with our DD there and when he said I was messed up that was controlling. Can you explain that more??? I'm not saying I disagree(those things are obviously wrong), I just don't think I fully understand why they are manipulative and/or controlling. I would appreciate some more insight on this. As far as the safe room for DD- I agree, but here is the problem. She is in the age where she is very clingy/separation anxiety. Sometimes she will play in a room by herself, but sometimes if you leave the room she will scream and become hysterical. I can't just leave her there to scream, you know? I will definately try to keep her away from the arguments if it is at all possible though. It breaks my heart to think of what we are exposing her to. But on the other hand, I want to get this all resolved before she gets older and can remember stuff like this. Thank you for the encouraging words. I am nervous about going to counseling with our pastor. I don't know their stance on marriage. And I don't feel like I could get the pastor's wife involved with the counseling. She is not really a part of the ministry of the church at all. She shows up on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights and that is about it. She has struggled with depression for years. I am not trying to judge her or anyone else who has struggled with depression, but I'm just saying that's probably not the person I want counseling me about my marriage, you know? As far as reading less and discussing more- that is a good idea. We hadn't really been discussing it at all when we read. He would make a weird comment about the book, and I would either not know how to respond, or be afraid to tell him what I really thought because I thought it would make him mad. So if we read it together again I will be sure to discuss. CELIA: Thank you. PURE IN HEART: I know for sure that he is wondering what is going on with me- he has said so! He says that he does not like the person that I have become since reading the books. And I say that all I am doing is just pointing it out when he does something that hurts me and not just stuffing it inside anymore. He says, "why would I want to read these books when they have not made a big change in you? You have not been treating me better- you have been treating me worse. So why would I want to read them when they are not helping you any???" I liked what you said about God's love "doing" something. That is so true, and I had never thought about it like that before. Very helpful. As far as Dh reading the forum- he doesn't even know that it exists. I think it is time that I tell him about it and ask him to start posting. TODDLER NO MORE & JJ: Thank you so much. It is so encouraging to me to hear that you were in almost the exact same place. It gives me so much hope for my DH and our marriage. My DH does argue the theology. And he hasn't even read much of the book- he is just assuming what they are going to say!!! I already said how I felt about getting the pastor's wife involved. I just don't think that is going to happen. She doesn't ever get involved with any of the counseling or anything that the pastor does, and she has struggled with depression. Again, I'm not trying to judge her for that, I just don't think that she would be the best person to speak into our marriage. And I don't think that she would come to counseling sessions either. I started reading your story. I will finish as soon as I get the time(I am watching 3 babies today). It is amazing how similar it is. Thank you so much for your prayers. I know my DH wants to be a good husband. But as Kathy would say, he is clueless!!! I actually just got off the phone with Kathy. She was so nice!!! We are scheduled to get on the call tonight. So I am going to do everything I can to get my DH on the call. I am also going to try to get him to start posting on the forums. I think it will be helpful for him to hear from other guys who had the same concerns at first and (excuse my language) are not ball-less. That is what he is worried about. Again thank you all so much for everything. I appreciate it more than you know.

He just got back home and told me that he has called our pastor for counseling. I am scared!!! I don't want to go to our pastor for counseling!!! I don't know what he believes about marriage! I am scared that he will just take DH's side and tell me that I need to submit more. I am scared that I will not be able to open up to the pastor and tell the pastor what DH is doing that hurts me. DH is an assistant pastor at our church. How can I talk to the pastor openly about what DH does that hurts me??? I am really upset about this. I just want to cry. I feel like I have been punched in the chest.

If there is anyone out there reading this thread, would you please pray for us? We had another big argument today. I don't have the heart to write the whole thing out, but I will try to give a few highlights. At one point he said that I was using too strong a word when I say that he is hurting me. He said that hurt was too strong of a word and made him feel like a criminal, and that just because I was upset about something does not mean that he is hurting me. Too extreme. I said that he WAS hurting me, and that I hope that my use of that word would open his eyes to what he was doing. At the end of the fight, he said that I am turning into a feminist. He said that he doesn't know why I married him if I am this miserable with him. He said that he is not controlling like my dad was and like my stepdad is with my mom, and that I should quit projecting that on him. He said that he is my head, and that I need to recognise that. He was shouting at this point. I asked him to quit yelling at me. It was making me feel really belittled, plus he was holding our daughter while yelling at me. When I said "DD is watching you yell at me, please stop!" he said "well if she could understand words then she just heard you make fun of me and that is just as bad". Then he said that we really need to go to counseling, because I am really messed up. Then after all of that he walked out of the door. We had agreed that he was going to take the truck and go somewhere and I was going to take the car. (long story but I cannot drive the truck right now, plus the car has the baby's car seat in it) Well he took the car!!! I called and asked him why he took the car and he said that he just felt like it, and that I could go where I needed to go when he got back. I said "I was ready to go and you said you were taking the truck- just bring the car back and take the truck!!!" (he had literally just pulled out of the driveway.) He said, "no, I am taking the car- if you are going to accuse me of being an arrogant dictator then I am going to start acting like one." He told me that he didn't want to read the book with me anymore- that he was going to read it on his own. Whatever. I am just praying that the Lord will soften his heart as he reads. On another subject- I feel so bad when our daughter sees us fight. She is only 10 months old, but I know it must affect her somehow. She was laughing during most of the fight today, or playing with my necklace. But when DH started yelling she was just staring at him. She didn't look scared, but she was definitely watching. I just feel so bad having a fight in front of her. But she is only 10 months old- what are we going to do? Its not like we can leave her in the other room and go in the bedroom to have a fight or something. She would get into things she shouldn't, or just cry because she was by herself. What would you do???

We have started reading the book together. We started off where he had left off- we read Chapter 3 on Tuesday and we read Chapter 4 last night. I am glad that he is reading the book with me. But I am so frustrated because he has an attitude the whole time. Like if he is reading, by the time he gets to the end of the chapter he is reading really fast, because "it is soooo long". Or if I am reading he is sitting over there squirming the whole time and trying to distract me. Last night was my turn to read. I read chapter 4, which took about 25 minutes. I started reading chapter 5, and he stopped me. He said "lets just do one chapter at a time." I said, "we have only been reading for 25 minutes and I said I would like to spend 45 minutes on this tonight. Can we keep reading this next chapter?" He claimed that I had said I wanted to spend 25 minutes, which is not what I said. I started to get a little upset, and then he starts telling me how I am making it too hard on him. I expect him to read it with me and then I can't be happy with one chapter at a time. He says we can read one chapter at a time most nights of the week. I said that would be great, but that we won't really read a chapter a day. I told him we weren't going to be able to read at all on Saturday or Sunday because we were going to be so busy. He said that I couldn't say for sure that we weren't going to be able to read. Yeah right. Anyway, he said he wanted to stop because he was wanting to watch a basketball game. I had to talk him into stopping watching it so that we could read, and I suggested that he tape it on the DVR so that he could finish watching it after we were done. I know all of this is probably "normal". But I just want him to take it seriously, you know? We were reading the chapter last night- the one where Kathy is telling their story and about how she didn't leave joel even though it got so rough. DH first comment was "She sounds like 'a woman scorned'. Everything she says sounds so bitter." I didn't know what to say, so I kept reading. A couple of minutes later, he says "This guy sounds like a real jerk." (talking about joel) Then a few minutes later he says, "I don't see how this is supposed to help us. I am nothing like this guy. This book is all about how a guy is supposed to win his wife's trust back, and I haven't done anything to lose your trust." I said, "aren't you talking all the time about how I don't trust you enough? And if this book is going to teach you how to help me to trust you, then don't you think you should really pay attention to that, even though you haven't done something extreme like cheating on me?" He said "It doesn't really apply, because I have never done anything for you to lose trust in me. You have never really trusted me from the start. And I don't know why." I didn't know what to say, so I just kept reading. I am frustrated. He is not getting it. He doesn't think this book applies at all. I know that this is probably normal at first. We were reading last night and he said, "I don't see how this applies to me. I'm not controlling like your dad was." Should I just "ignore" this kind of stuff for now and hope that as we get further into the book he will start to "get it"? I just remembered something else. As we were reading chapter 3 earlier, he had a comment. It was the part of the chapter when Joel is talking about how he was a jerk to Kathy, getting mad because she had the blinds facing the wrong way, or had parked over in his parking space. My DH totally didn't get that it was wrong for Joel to blow up about that stuff. Instead he said, "Maybe you can help me with this. What goes through a wife's mind when she does something like that?" Me: "huh?" DH: "Well, she had to have been thinking something when she parked in his spot. Either she didn't care enough to even notice that she was in his spot, or she noticed and didn't care to take the 10 seconds to move the car. Either way the guy ends up feeling disrespected." I said that maybe she thought that she was going to go out again before Joel got home, and since he was gone that it didn't really matter where she parked the car. And he said, "but see, that is part of the problem right there. She doesn't respect him enough to do things the way he likes it even when he is not there. And then the guy ends up feeling really disrespected in his own home when he finds out that that's how she does things when he's not around." I didn't know what to say. I could have said, "well, what are you thinking when you lay your clothes on the end of the bed, when I have asked you not to. You are either thinking, yes my wife doesn't like this but I don't feel like putting them up, or you don't care about me enough to even think about it. It goes both ways!!!" But if I said that then he would say that I am doing what I always do- turn the argument around on him. I just kept my mouth shut because it was pretty much a lose/lose for me if I said anything. Is he going to get it??? I am getting frustrated!!! I told him last week when we had a big talk about the book (before we started reading together) that I felt like we were at a crossroads. If we took to heart the teachings in this book then we would take one path, and our lives would be blessed in every area. But if we ignored this book, then we would take the other path, and continue to go around the same mountains for the rest of our lives. I told him that I was really feeling like that was what the Lord was speaking to me, and that I wanted him to trust me about that and take me seriously. And after i said that, he said that the Lord was confirming in his heart that I was right about that. So why now is he not taking this seriously??? He acts like it is the worst thing in the world to sit down and read with me for 30 minutes. Much like a little boy and homework. Please tell me that it will get better!!! Or if you can't do that at least tell me what I can do to help him along!!! (oh, and nothing crazy like "lowering the boom" or separating or anything like that. We are not anywhere near that point. I am so glad that I found Joel and Kathy's ministry at this point though. I can only imagine what our marriage could have been 10 or 20 years from now without this teaching.)

Everything is going ok. We had a BIG fight on Saturday. But in the end we ended up talking, and I got to share some of my heart with him. He is more open to finishing reading the books now. He said that he wasn't really interested in reading the books because he would rather just have me talk to him and tell him what I am feeling. He said he doesn't care what some author has to say, he wants to know what I want from him. I told him that I was glad that he wanted to hear from my heart, but that we still needed to read the books for 2 big reasons. #1. The books ARE EXACTLY how I feel, and they can explain it even better than I can. #2. He is so much better at debating than I am, and if I am trying to teach him about the "doctrinal" things in the book, he is going to be able to talk circles around me. But I think that the book will explain all of that better than me just trying to explain the whole concept in 5 minutes, especially when I am so new to it myself. So he agreed about that. But then he started talking about how busy he was, and everything that he was studying to preach, etc, etc, and that he didn't want to give up any of that. I said first of all, I'm glad that you are doing all of the Bible study, etc. That is all good stuff. But the way I see it, you have 2 options. You can either give some of that up and read this book, or you can keep all of that, and take one hour out of the four that you watch of tv every night and read this book. And then I said, even though all of those things are good, and even ministry related, shouldn't our marriage be first priority? What are you doing right now to work on our marriage? What does all the other stuff matter if our marriage fails? I could tell by his face when I said that that it was finally getting to him. I felt like he really understood. He didn't have a comeback! He just said, "youre right". So that is the good. The bad is that we are still having issues. Here is what happened last night. I had a terrible sinus headache. Still do. It is the worst sinus headache I think I have ever had. I had been talking about it throughout the night, so DH knew I was not feeling well. By the time bedtime rolled around, it was so bad that I was feeling nauseous. I put the baby to bed at 8, and DH was watching baseball while I was surfing the net. He fell asleep on the couch. I finally got so tired that I was going to go to bed(around 11). So I nudged DH and said "will you come to bed with me?" He groaned and mumbled something. I said "come on, lets go to bed!" Again, mumble groan. So I said, "I am not feeling well and I need you to come to bed with me." I was getting frustrated at this point. Whether or not he comes to bed with me has been a big issue for us. So he started getting mad. He said that I was just ordering him around, and that I wasn't giving him an option whether or not to come to bed. I said that he didn't really need to make a decision- he was already asleep on the couch! I just wanted him to come to the bed to sleep! He said that I was not his mom, and that I couldn't tell him when to go to bed or not. I told him that I wasn't trying to make him give up some great plans he had for the next few hours- he was already asleep. So I went to bed by myself at that point. About 5 minutes later he came to bed. Then he says, "do you see how what you did makes me feel like you are bossing me around?" I said that I was not bossing him around. I wanted him to come to bed with me for comfort because I was not feeling well, and since he was already asleep on the couch, I didn't think that would be an issue. He went into this whole discussion about how I wasn't giving him a choice, and how I didn't even give him time to decide. (why should it take 5 minutes to decide to come to bed with your wife when she is not feeling well?!?!?) He thinks i should have asked him nicely to come to bed and then just gone in the bedroom. Yeah, I have done that before, and he ends up spending the whole night on the couch. I wasn't going to risk that happening because I wanted him there when I wasn't feeling well. He said that he didn't know how him coming to bed would be comforting. I said "I'm sorry that you don't understand that in you male mmind, but to a woman that is comforting." After his whole dissertation was over, this is what I said: "You made me feel really devalued. I needed you to come to bed with me because I wasn't feeling well, but you couldn't get past your immature attitude of 'You're not the boss of me- I don't have to come to bed just because you say so". You didn't take any time to think about how I was feeling. You couldn't get past your immature attitude for one minute to focus on my needs. And that makes me feel devalued, like me and my needs are not important to you. And then when I try to explain that to you, you just start talking about how I made you feel so bossed around, when really this would be a great time for an apology." I was so proud of myself. In the past, I would not have been able to express my need like that, or be able to be so confident about how he was making me feel or what I needed from him. I probably would have apologized for "bossing" him around, and then laid there wondering if I was just being too emotional for "needing" him to come to bed with me. Maybe I should just grow up and be able to go to bed by myself. (that's what he tells me- I am a grownup and I should be able to go to bed by myself. Nevermind that i didn't get married so that I could sleep bymyself.) Anyway, after that great explanation from me about how he made me feel, what I needed from him, and a plea for an apology, here is what he said: "Well when do I get my apology for how you made me feel?" I was floored. I didn't say anything. I figured it was probably pointless, as he obviously was not getting it. I just rolled over and went to sleep. I was mad, but at the same time I was so thankful that I was able to stand my ground. I didn't give in to the devaluing. I didn't go to sleep wondering when I was going to be able to grow up and stop being so needy. I knew that I had a valid need, and that my "position" was completely valid, whether he wanted to validate it or not. It is so freeing. I hope and pray that his eyes will be opened soon. But at least for the time being, I have the consolation of knowing that I am not crazy, and that I don't need to just grow up and stop being so needy.