Jump to content
God Save My Marriage

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 3.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • 1 month later...

I posted this on Looney's thread yesterday...

 

Thanks, Ladies, for your prayers for Looney. She is working so hard to hold down the fort at our place, and her own, with our EXTENDED "vacation".

 

Yesterday she had to call me with more (potentially) bad news. The lady who owned our daughter's horse before we did (she gave the horse to our daughter) has caused a LOT of heartache for us in the past, and knew that she was not welcome at our house without prior notice, our permission, and with us being home. Well, the horse is a little thin with the hay shortage, and my sis-in-law called me last week to tell me that she was concerned. I told her that I was aware that he was a little thin, and I would take care of things once I got home (not that I could do much but just to make her feel better... Looney is stuck with no money or vehicle to get hay, so even if we could find some, she would not be able to get any with us gone).

 

Well, my brother and sis-in-law made the BRILLIANT decision to bring this woman by our house with us gone, to see the horse!! First of all, she is so overly attached to this horse, even several years after giving him up. She has never asked US to see him since she caused all of the problems, so I have to believe that they were talking about the hay shortage and his weight just "happened to" come up. Secondly, the last time she threatened to come TAKE HIM. We did not have any papers or bill of sale on him at that time, so we were not sure what we could have done to stop her. Now we have the papers, and he is "officially" ours, but that does not mean that she won't try something... to take him, threaten us, or to call animal control (even though he is not that thin... she can cause trouble).

 

I can't believe that they would do this to any of us. I feel so betrayed. Anyway, I feel badly for Looney, for having to deal with any and/or all of this without us. :sad:

 

We have had so much going on... here is a little bit of it.

 

I was offered a chance to travel to the Washington, DC area to work at a store for three weeks that was in need of some extra help. I jumped at the opportunity, as I love to travel and thought it would be a great chance to learn more and have an adventure. Stephen was able to come with me, as he can work from home, so he just packed his laptop and worked from the hotel room. I worked overnight shift, so he slept while I was working and vice versa. We would go out to eat together some time in the late afternoon or early evening and have some time together.

 

From there we went down to see my sister, who I have not seen in about 2 1/2 years. Our relationship had taken a bad turn, and things had started to turn back around, so I really wanted to get to see her.

 

We were supposed to stay here from Friday til Tuesday... but the hurricane hit and all the snow in WV had us concerned about traveling home. So we decided to stay until Thursday. Then on Thursday we left, and only got about 30 miles down the road, and the car started acting up, badly! We started to lose power and once Stephen got it pulled over, he had a hard time getting it started. When it would start, it sounded awful and would not stay running.

 

Well, we ended up having it towed and guess what??? We need a NEW ENGINE!! One of the cam shafts broke! Unheard of! And half of the shaft was completely dry of oil... so something was stopping oil from getting up to that part of the engine. So even if they rebuilt the "head" of the engine, the other problem would still be there and we would probably end up in the same situation down the road... probably soon.

 

So, here we sit, waiting for the "new" engine (thankfully they found one that has only 15,000 miles on it that was just down the road!) to be installed... probably going to be another couple of days.

 

But most importantly, I have my husband. He is himself, real, loving, attentive, and AMAZING. I can't even explain all of the changes that have happened.

 

One of the biggest things that has brought about this change is this... we were talking about ML, or lack of ML in our case, which had continued to be a problem for us. He admitted that every time he would initiate, it would take him right back to the terror of the abuse. He had NEVER told me this and that was upsetting to me.

 

But I told him that he needed to be willing to push past that, as he admitted that it was just a momentary thing that passed as we "progressed" physically. He was not willing to do this, so I told him that it came down to this for me... one thing that I have learned this year, through all of my emotional struggles, is that when there is a crisis, you have only two choices... solve it or survive it. And since I have not been able to solve the ML issue... I needed to survive it. Or decided that I was not willing to survive it (the "it" being complete and total rejection of me) and decided that this IS a deal-breaker and end our marriage. Simple.

 

I have had professionals ask me why I was still in this marriage... why I tolerated the rejection. I did not have an answer for them. And this is what it came down to... am I willing to tolerate the rejection or am I not. And I told him point blank that I was not. That I deserved more. And I think he finally got it... that I wanted more, deserved more, needed more.

 

And things have been GREAT. ::love

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Been awhile since an update from us - things went well up until about Thanksgiving, and then things went back into a negative place. We are still working to get back completely on track - we are back to a painful place and dealing with issues that we have tried to deal with before. I did get on the Monday night call with Cindy and Tim and talked with them about things, but things are still a struggle...

 

The remaining struggle for us is our physical relationship - even when things have been going great between us, there is still a lack of consistency and frequency in our LM. When I spoke with Tim on Monday night, I told him that I struggle with feeling selfish and self-focused when I think about being physical with Eeyore - to me, I think more about what I want to get out of the "interaction" than what I think she might need/want. Eeyore and I tried to talk about this tonight, and it was not a helpful conversation at all - Eeyore is definitely getting to the point of feeling like talking about this topic more than we already have is pointless...

 

When I think about ML to Eeyore, I find that I am thinking more about what I want to experience than what I want her to experience - to me, it seems that this is completely selfish (doing something with the hopes of getting what you want seems to define selfishness, right?) and that it is NOT how I should be thinking. My thoughts should be on what she wants and how to go about giving that to her, without concern for myself - that will "take care of itself" and shouldn't be my concern or focus. Eeyore's view is that as long as I am thinking about being with her, then nothing else really matters, and that I shouldn't be so worried about being selfish. I know that she is right, and that it is just that simple...

 

The problem is that I am still stuck on the fact that if I am thinking about myself and what I want when I initiate LM, then it seems to me that I am not thinking the way that I should be. Eeyore doesn't seem to be concerned about my selfishness in this area, so maybe the whole issue just needs to be dropped, but I also know that there are a lot of issues from my abuse that are connected to this area, and I want to be able be free from it and stop dragging us back to this place.

 

Just needed to spill this out - if someone has something to add, I would be grateful...

 

HD

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to add something here... not to be too graphic, but I think some specifics are needed in order for clarification of what he is asking are needed.

 

One of the things that he said that he "selfishly" thinks about is a desire for oral sex ("just lay back and receive oral sex"). He says that he CANNOT think this way because this is "about him" and that is selfish. The problem with this thinking is that he squelshes ALL of HIS desires!! So, we don't ML because he only initiates because of me, not because HE wants it!!

 

There were other things that he brought up that he would like, and yes, they are "about him", but they are part of ML, ways that I CAN please HIM, and he is shortchanging himself AND me by shutting down his desires.

 

He told me that he has been told that he is not to think about himself and his desires, because he is supposed to put my needs first. I told him that putting my needs first is NOT putting his needs completely to death (NOT the same as dying to self). I want and need him to have sexual desires, and it is such an important part of a healthy marriage, but he REFUSES to see what I am saying to him. I told him that putting me first is about making sure that my needs are met too, not taking me against my will, not having only "quickies", and other acts that only please him.

 

He has it in his head that he must only go into ML with the mindset that he wants to please me and not about what he would like to experience. He won't see that HIM wanting something can please me as well. He literally "pleases" me before he is "pleased" and that is another issue... (not mutual or simultaneous). Things are very much the same each time, no creativity and to be honest, it can be boring!

 

I told him point blank that no matter how he puts me first and no matter how he denies his own desires, he still only can physically feel his own pleasure... and isn't that selfish (based on his mindset)?? After all, when he has sex, he is pleased, and since he is not supposed to go into sex wanting that, then I guess we should throw sex completely out the window!! :roll:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I only have a few moments, so just real quick. I know Eeyore is very eloquent and she is great at explaining what you, HD need to know. I do want to point out one important thing. The fantasy that Eeyore describes is remnant of arrested development and mother-son issues. The part about laying back and letting Eeyore pleasure you. You feel a repulsion for that fantasy and for good reason. It comes from arrested development. I know firsthand how my arrested development affects my sexual fantasy life. (i could put that in past tense, but it's not completely behind me). You can reject those thoughts without rejecting the whole love-making experience. I want to stress that it's not bad for that particular fantasy to be fulfilled, but I'm sure you can see the extreme being-taken-care-of in the fantasy alone as an incomplete fulfillment of love-making. ALWAYS: --->...mutual pleasure is so so important in sex. You can't ever deny yourself pleasure in lovemaking or in life in general. A wife's happiness is completely wrapped up in her man's own pleasure and happiness, so when you deny yourself pleasure and happiness you are denying your wife's happiness and pleasure. Do get on the conference call with John and Susan. You'll never hear John (or Joel etc) putting down his own sexual desires as "selfish"!!

Edited by Crystal
Link to post
Share on other sites

Before you read this, I want you to remind yourself (again!) that your thoughts and ideas about sex are messed up. You need to choose to believe what Eeyore and I and everyone else tells you. If you are going to choose to mentally argue with us and hang onto your messed up ideas, you are never going to get to the other side of this. You know that none of us will lie to you. Most of your entire experience with sex, unfortunately starting at the age of 5, has been a lie. You know where those lies come from. So start with driving satan out of your head, and then you can keep reading. OK? OK. :D

 

I should probably warn anyone else reading this that I'm not gonna mince words - we've all had sex, we all know how it works, and the only way to bust through some of these crazy ideas is to talk about them. If using the "o" word offends you, though, skip this post. ;)

 

So let's deal with your ideas one by one . . .

 

When I think about ML to Eeyore, I find that I am thinking more about what I want to experience than what I want her to experience - to me, it seems that this is completely selfish (doing something with the hopes of getting what you want seems to define selfishness, right?) and that it is NOT how I should be thinking.

 

Well, sort of. You need to understand that, to a woman, selfish sex on the part of the guy basically equals one or all of the following - 1) being forced against our will, 2) continuing to do things that we find painful or uncomfortable in any way after we've asked you to stop, and 3) not making sure that we orgasm if we need to . . . and we don't always need to.

 

You also need to go farther with accepting the idea that an OHM is mutual submission, mutual blessing, and mutual satisfaction. When we love our man - and you know that Eeyore loves you - and when he is treating us well, we want to make him happy. You have gotten much better at allowing Eeyore to respond to your love by loving you back . . . in every area except the bedroom. What I'm saying is that your fantasy of just lying back and letting Eeyore take care of you is probably something she'd be more than willing to do, as long as it's not the only thing you do and as long as you make sure that she gets her needs met too. She doesn't want to be selfish about sex anymore than you do . . . it's supposed to be something that you both enjoy. Sometimes, yes, one of you just needs it and you give more than you get, but overall it all balances out. When you are determined to totally squash your desires and focus only on hers, it makes sex feel like another chore that you have to check off your list. That's not exactly the way to make her feel sexy and desirable.

 

Having said that, reaching an OHM is about meeting your wife's needs, and that includes her need for sex. That means that no matter what is going through your head, you need to initiate at least a couple of times a week. That's going to show her that you really do want to work through this issue . . . because it's not all going to happen in your head. You can mentally deal with your demons all you want, but if you don't get the equipment up and running, it's not going to make one bit of difference in your relationship. If she sees you initiating consistently - even if, at the moment, you're still thinking you're being selfish and it's still the same old pattern - she will know that you want to make this better and that you're actively doing something about it.

 

The problem is that I am still stuck on the fact that if I am thinking about myself and what I want when I initiate LM, then it seems to me that I am not thinking the way that I should be.

 

This kind of strikes me as learning to use chopsticks - if you get the food into your mouth, you've done it right. :P If you initiate sex and you and Eeyore are both satisfied and go to sleep happy, who gives a rodent's posterior what you were thinking when you started? Your thoughts only matter if they cause you to do the wrong thing. Do the right thing no matter what you're thinking . . . does that sound the least bit familiar? You might have heard that somewhere before . . . :roll:

 

I also know that there are a lot of issues from my abuse that are connected to this area, and I want to be able be free from it and stop dragging us back to this place.

 

Are you having flashbacks? If so, are they specific - certain positions, or when Eeyore touches you in a certain way - or does the abuse pop into your head every time you think about having sex? I get the impression that it's the former. If so, I'd suggest avoiding those things for now until you deal with the whole overall issue you have about initiating sex. Do things that you know feel good to you, are fun - yes, FUN! - and don't bring up any reminders that you can't deal with in the moment. It's OK to put some issues aside until you're strong enough to deal with them.

 

I told him that putting my needs first is NOT putting his needs completely to death (NOT the same as dying to self). I want and need him to have sexual desires, and it is such an important part of a healthy marriage, but he REFUSES to see what I am saying to him. I told him that putting me first is about making sure that my needs are met too, not taking me against my will, not having only "quickies", and other acts that only please him.

 

Yes! Remember way back when, when you were thinking that needing food or sleep or any other basic need was being selfish? It took awhile, but you finally got that idea out of your head. You need to take care of yourself physically so that you are able to control your tendencies to be abusive. Guess what? Sex is a basic need! Yes, your body will take care of itself if you are not able to have sex for whatever reason, but that doesn't work so well when you have a willing wife and YOU are the one who is not doing what you need to do.

 

He literally "pleases" me before he is "pleased" and that is another issue... (not mutual or simultaneous).

 

Putting Eeyore first does not mean that she literally has to orgasm first. Sometimes the biggest turn on is for us to watch our guy lose control. Getting off at the same time is pretty much guaranteed to blow our mind. And yeah, sometimes it's nice if you take care of her first. For most of us, though, the thing we like best is variety. Switch it up a bit. Try something new. Remember that this is supposed to be FUN!

 

Please remember that this is an area where you HAVE to take the lead right now. Eeyore's not strong enough yet. I think she'll eventually get to the point where she will probably initiate almost as much as you do IF you choose to do what she needs to be healed. You have made her feel undesirable, ugly, and rejected for way too long, and it's going to take awhile before she'll feel confident enough to just say I want you to ____. I can promise you that inside she's thinking I wish he would ___, but she's not able to say that right now. And I know that you don't feel confident yet either, and so you default into the same old thing because it's too scary to ask her what she would like. Somebody's got to go first, though, and you have the Y chromosome.

 

I really wasn't intending to write a novel . . . what else do we need to talk out? Put it all out here. The lies can only be dealt with by bringing them into the light. They've rattled around in your head for 40 years, and look at the trouble they've caused. :wacko:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ee

Eeyore's view is that as long as I am thinking about being with her, then nothing else really matters, and that I shouldn't be so worried about being selfish. I know that she is right, and that it is just that simple...

 

The problem is that I am still stuck on the fact that if I am thinking about myself and what I want when I initiate LM, then it seems to me that I am not thinking the way that I should be. Eeyore doesn't seem to be concerned about my selfishness in this area, so maybe the whole issue just needs to be dropped,

 

Cindy and Chrystal put so much thought into their replies. I have to make a simple comment, getting ready for church. Eeyore is right again. Making love is fun. Fun for both sometimes and sometimes just a blessing for one person to bless the other. (even though it is fun for us either way.) Don't get hung up on this. Just make love. Have fun. Enjoy. That is what God made our bodies into amazingly sexual instruments for. Create a symphony!

 

Hey - "Sex with a married woman" by Robert Alter is available now at the shopping cart. www.joelandkathy.com/cart/ and you can use the "Christmas" coupon code to get a $5 discount. It is another gem by Robert and his bride!

 

Thank you Cindy (looney) and Crystal, for your time invested in your heart felt replies!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Eeyore, Crystal, and LT - I appreciate the comments and help...

 

I guess one of the things that keeps ringing in my head is when Tim said to me during the call "THAT doesn't sound like unconditional love" when I brought up this issue - so I keep wondering what DOES unconditional love and sex look like? To have sex without any conditions seems like it should be a focus on Eeyore without concern for "what I want", and "what I want" will take care of itself - from what Eeyore and everyone is saying, that's not the correct understanding or view. If I am not thinking of myself and my wife when contemplating sex, then I am not doing it right...

 

When I think about what Crystal said - that's the idea that I was afraid was in me, the self-absorbed, "want to be served" mentality of the selfish jerk that I am trying to no longer be. Glad that everyone agrees that it doesn't seem to be something to be concerned about...

 

LT - I wouldn't really say that I am having flashbacks as much as just a general level of anxiety and an "extremely immature mindset", for lack of a better way of putting it. Basically, I feel like I am trying to connect jumper cables to a battery behind my back - like I know just enough about what I am trying to do, but not enough not to turn it into a really awkward and painful situation. I feel scared and clueless and completely out of my element - not scared of Eeyore or anything like that, just scared and freaked out. I don't know how to act like a "real man" when I feel like this, let alone like a "godly man with a plan" to bring joy to my wife and myself.

 

The combination of my past abuse and Eeyore's current abuse at my hands seems to make this an area that is beset with pitfalls, which then makes me feel self-conscious and guarded and awkward. I can't seem to find the freedom to be truly relaxed in this area - I am trying to get past this, which is why I am talking about it in the open, finally.

 

HD

Link to post
Share on other sites
Basically, I feel like I am trying to connect jumper cables to a battery behind my back - like I know just enough about what I am trying to do, but not enough not to turn it into a really awkward and painful situation. I feel scared and clueless and completely out of my element - not scared of Eeyore or anything like that, just scared and freaked out. I don't know how to act like a "real man" when I feel like this, let alone like a "godly man with a plan" to bring joy to my wife and myself.

 

This is one of those simple-but-not-easy things to overcome. You are going to have to be intentional about it, and you are going to have to continually pull your thoughts back around until they no longer drift off to that scared place.

 

The key is to simply stay in the moment. Use all of the mindfulness stuff you've learned while you're making love. Focus on what you're doing right this second, how it feels, and how Eeyore is responding. When that scared, anxious feeling bubbles up, bring your thoughts back to where she is touching you right now. You've learned how to do this in another context. Just apply it to this situation.

 

You also know how to defeat negative self talk, so if that's coming up on your way up the stairs, get rid of it. You are certainly not a failure at making love. Remind yourself of all the times when you've rocked her world. You DO know how to blow her away, and you DO know how to make her feel loved and cherished.

 

Remember that in a normal relationship, sex is different at different times. Sometimes it's long and slow. Sometimes you're swinging from the lights. Sometimes it's hard and fast. Sometimes it's just a quickie to take care of physical needs. All of that is OK. If you have done what she needs at the moment, you're good - and what she needs at the moment will not always be the same. Every time doesn't have to be something out of a romance novel. Don't put that kind of pressure on yourself.

 

Stay in the moment, and watch and listen to Eeyore's cues. Don't let the fact that something might not feel good to her take you to that shame based place you've worked so hard to get out of. If something doesn't feel good, it means . . . wait for it . . . that what you're doing right now doesn't feel good. Period. It doesn't mean you are a total failure in bed.

 

Remember that Eeyore wants you to make love to her . . . her biggest complaint is that you aren't doing it! She will work through just about anything with you as long as you are making an effort.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Steve,

 

Waiting for Thesbians to take the stage so I have a minute.

 

Here is the thing. Its not about LM'ing can't be enjoyable for both parties. The scriptures we reviewed were not only Scripture for women.

 

Where a guy tends to get stuck in "self", is more related to performance anxiety. Lets say you had some issue that may have happened when you were young. This event may have created some of those "arrested development" issues we discuss.

 

So a guy ends up with all these sexual hangups, that he takes into the marriage. - They can be of sorts of issues. From insecurity, perversity, madonna, what ever. So then when it comes to ML with his wife, he starts letting these issues take control. This is where we need to shift focus off "self" and onto wife. The "self" we are thinking of at that moment, is not about enjoy the gifts of pleasure God gives, but exactly the opposite. They are the curses of Satan feeding doubt and lies which usually create so much self consciousness during making love, the whole experience ends up a nightmare for both parties.

 

To help you through those situations, if this is something of an issue, a guy should focus on his wife. Understanding that if he focuses on his wife and making her feel wanted, love and cherished, the whole experience becomes wonderful for both parties. The husband than also will enjoy the experience.

 

Hope that makes sense....

 

TP

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be negative, but your post, HD, is like more blah, blah, blah...

 

Read the replies again...

 

Fun... mutual... etc.

 

I think the REAL issue here is your past, and you are scared to face it. I can't fix it for you. I am tired of fighting about this and tired of fighting for our marriage. I don't have it in me to continue to beat this issue again and again. The truth is the truth. You can choose to accept it or not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Eeyore, LT, and I just spent some time talking through some of these issues - they were bringing up some situations and asking me what I would be thinking in those situations. One example was that of a back rub turning into something more - how do I see that situation transpiring? My response was that I believe that the "right thing to do" would be to give the back rub and not expect anything more to happen (and not try to make anything more than that happen). What are guys always taught - "a back rub is just a back rub", right? The problem with this is that it puts everything on Eeyore to control what happens - I had thought that would be a GOOD thing (empowering to her, putting the control in her hands, etc.), but instead it has spoken to her that she is not worth the effort.

 

They also asked me what I thought would happen if I tried to do something that Eeyore wasn't comfortable with, and she had to say "no" - had that ever happened, and was it a problem for me to stop? Eeyore said that this kind of thing had happened between us before, and that there were not any issues with me getting things "under control". From this, it is clear that I can control myself and that I can be sensitive to what she says and what she needs, so fears that I might have about "forcing myself" on her are not valid and can be rejected. I did find a lot of emotions coming up during the conversation that centered around my past and my abuse and knowing that "saying no" and "not wanting to do something" didn't work for me, so I NEVER wanted to put someone I love in that kind of a position. If there was any doubt in my mind that she might not be comfortable with something or if I wasn't clear that things where "a GO", then I would not proceed - obviously, taken to an extreme within my marriage, to a very unhealthy degree...

 

One of the other things that came up during this conversation was that I did not want to become that which happened to me - I did not want to be someone that pursues their pleasure at the cost of those around them. In my twisted and immature emotional mind, that's the correlation that I made to being the "aggressor" or the "initiator" - pursuing sexual activities with my wife became a potential opportunity for my abusive personality to thrive. Again, taken to the extreme, I avoided situations where I was "in pursuit" because I believe that I was heading down a track to become something I don't wish to be.

 

Once again, when these lies and deceptions come out into the open, they are nearly ridiculous - when they are inside, they are the terrifying and seemingly unavoidable truth. Renewing the mind can be messy, I guess...

 

HD

Link to post
Share on other sites
Renewing the mind can be messy, I guess...

 

Ever seen a Groom & Clean competition? It's a 4H thing . . . they bring in a horse that has been covered in mud, and the goal is to get the horse clean - brushes and curries only, you can't give him a bath - and show him in a halter class. These kids end up absolutely covered in mud, but the horse ends up clean, shiny, and beautiful. The kids strip off their coveralls to reveal show clothes underneath, and everyone applauds. This is kind of like a groom & clean in your mind. It's a mess right now, but the end result will be spectacular. Just don't miss that mud up under the tail. ;)

 

You have already done what most men won't do . . . died to yourself in a lot of ways and grown by leaps and bounds. Eeyore has stuck with you through a lot of painful, messy stuff, and she deserves to have you go all the way. Keep getting all of those lies out into the light. That's what reveals them for what they are, and when the light hits them, they go up in a puff of smoke. I'm proud of you for what you've done so far, but I think there's more in there. Keep digging.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And I want you to realize something, Stephen. No matter how many times I say that I am done, tired, finished, and not doing this any more... when you post something as open and wonderful and honest as your last post... being willing to share where you are and letting others see it and help you... my heart opens up and the l realize how very much I DO love you. My heart responds and I know how much I want things to work out. I just can't help myself. :wub:

 

I wish all husbands would just try it, trust the process, and see what happens!! :eyes:

Edited by Eeyore
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
How do I get him to read them?

 

The same way you got him to read J&K's book. Hand it to him with a sweet smile and tell him it would mean a lot to you if he'd read it within the next 2 weeks. Since he's now pretty firmly in the Amazing Husband category (at least most of the time!), it won't be an issue. :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Looney! He picked up the book ("Love Life for Every Married Couple" by Ed Wheat) and started reading it without me asking. I have seen him with it a couple of times, so hopefully he is still reading! He has not shared anything yet, but that is okay. Our communication is so much better... overall. We are making progress in the "last areas" of struggle and that is awesome.

 

I have a question... has anyone used "going dark" on family members? Stephen suggested that I do it with my sis-in-law, as she is being completely unreasonable and mean. I have reached out to her but she is unforgiving and keeps throwing "flaming arrows" at me and my family. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this idea...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...