Working for her

[HerDestiny]

Peter - I am sorry to see you go, and I think that you are making a mistake. I will continue to pray for you and your family. I hope that somehow, someway something that was said helps you at some point in the future.

 

HerDensity

[Peter]

Put my post back up

[Peter]

Your "final post" above is in the Private Mens section as well ` Dory.

 

http://www.joelandkathy.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=47902#47902

[Joanna means gift]

I love you Peter. And I hope you will be back here soon, to be accountable to people I trust to give you the truth.

 

My intention for now is to call you once a day, and hang up as soon as you start to be controlling. But as long as you stay focused on me and my needs, we can converse. That way, the only interaction I have with you is positive.

 

I would suggest that you may want to post your "venting" posts on the private men's section and post your great, humble "I can do this, honey!" posts here for me to read. I really loved your post last night about the telephone call. Ity showed real progress.

 

Check out Her Density and Eyeore (our friends from the intensive) - this is how they post.

 

Thank you for the lovely gift. And thank you for dropping the girls off without incident. Both of them commented on how wonderful it was not to hear us argue. Such healing for their hearts!!! Thank you for having so much fun with them - tea parties, watching tv shows that they like, etc. All of these things get reported back to me and then I know that you are changing.

 

Joanna

[dory]

Joanna, you are amazing!

[Joanna means gift]

Thanks Dory:

 

Now I will get some well-deserved rest!

 

Love to you all!

Joanna

[Looney_Tunes]

Peter, if you diagnose a patient with pneumonia, and he refuses to take the penicillin you prescribe, is it your fault if the patient dies? Of course not. Yet that's exactly what you're doing. You're refusing to do the things that you need to do - things that have been proven in marriage after marriage to work - and then you're blaming Joel and Kathy and all of us because your marriage isn't getting healed. It's not our fault. It's your fault, because instead of taking your medicine you're spending all of your time and energy telling us why you won't take it and why it won't work and why the people who prescribed it are ____ (you can put your own adjective here - you have a million of them).

 

I'm sorry you're unable to take a good hard look at yourself and see yourself as you really are. I'm sorry you think you're so wonderful that you don't need to change. If you ever decide to actually do this, you will be welcomed back with love and no hard feelings. Until that happens, enjoy your career and your pride. I hope they keep you warm at night.

 

Your wife deserves so much better than the garbage you're giving her.

[Eeyore]

Joanna, thanks for the compliment about our posts. Yes, Peter, there are lots of people here who still do not have it perfect. But we are trying. And we know truth when it is spoken to us. The way that the church traditionally teaches about marriage does not work. We know that. We have suffered through it, as well as traditional counseling. Just because someone studies something does not mean that they are gifted in making it work. I know that you know what gifting from God is. He can use anyone that He wants to, anywhere He wants to, and anyway He wants to.

 

We did not ask to be invited into your life, but we stepped willingly from the moment we met you. We knew that you were resistant to this program, but have prayed for you and your wife. We hold no joy in watching anyone suffer, only rejoice in seeing others in victory. We seek that victory ourselves.

 

My husband is growing, and I know it because he is showing more love for me than he is showing for himself. That is growth, no matter how you look at it. Yes, we have needed time apart. Yes, the path has not been perfect. But the growth is evident and I am proud of him. I am also proud of myself. Through this process, I have begun to see who I am in Christ, that I have value, and that I deserve to be treated as a daughter of the King, not just someone's wife to treat as he wishes. It is a growing process for both of us.

 

We will continue to pray for you and your wife. She is beautiful and she deserves the best. You deserve the best, too. A happy marriage, which can only be achieved by you taking the first step, as the "head", the "initiator", the husband.

[gms]

Peter - I know you aren't going to post anymore, but I have a question for you to consider. Is encouraging you to follow the directives of Ephesians 5:25 and 1 Peter 3:7 wise counsel for a Christian husband? If the Bible is wise counsel indeed, why do you call it unwise? You are fighting against God through Joanna by proxy in this not me or anyone else on here.

[JoelandKathy]

Well, Peter. Are you tired of fighting against the inevitable yet?

 

Can't make any progress until you are ready to humbly start the process again.

 

No different than a patient of yours who would refuse treatment.

 

Of course our only MD is HAPPILY MD - and that is all that you need.

 

MD standing for HAPPILY MARRIED of course.

[JoelandKathy]

I love you Peter. And I hope you will be back here soon, to be accountable to people I trust to give you the truth.

 

My intention for now is to call you once a day, and hang up as soon as you start to be controlling. But as long as you stay focused on me and my needs, we can converse. That way, the only interaction I have with you is positive.

 

I would suggest that you may want to post your "venting" posts on the private men's section and post your great, humble "I can do this, honey!" posts here for me to read. I really loved your post last night about the telephone call. Ity showed real progress.

 

Check out Her Density and Eyeore (our friends from the intensive) - this is how they post.

 

Thank you for the lovely gift. And thank you for dropping the girls off without incident. Both of them commented on how wonderful it was not to hear us argue. Such healing for their hearts!!! Thank you for having so much fun with them - tea parties, watching tv shows that they like, etc. All of these things get reported back to me and then I know that you are changing.

 

Joanna

 

As Dory said. Truly amazing.

[JoelandKathy]

We had a phone conversation tonight in which a lot of issues were discussed. I tried my best to demonstrate to her that I was willing to die to myself by agreeing with her accusations of me and accepting blame for our marriage problems. I told her I drove her to leave me and that I am narcissistic. I told her I change my viewpoint and actions even within one day. She said I have destroyed her and I agreed. We had open conversation about my job interviews and her relationship with my family.

 

She explained her concerns about the safety of our children around my father and how I am more loyal to my family than to her. I was mostly able to suppress talking about my emotions. I lost control during the family issues, and told her she was vindictive. I apologized for keeping her on the phone too long and pushing her to come back to me. I prayed for her healing and told her I wanted to meet her needs. I sarcastically told her she didn't need to be wounded for the next week after talking to me, and this was a big mistake. I reminded her that she is in control of reconciliation if it occurs, and that I wanted to work for her.

 

I am in a cosmic struggle as you all have seen. I am failing every day to be the man God wants me to be. I thank my wife for being such a valuable asset to me for 15 years despite my parasitism. I have taken and she has given. I want this to change. I want to give and she can take. I want her to be happy, with or without me. I love her so much and yet am so unaware of how to heal her, even after all this reading.

 

She did say I have started to grow up in a very tiny way. I appreciate this. She is not ready to meet me in person, which I understand. I just want her needs to be met now and in future. I have been such a fool.

 

Well said, Peter - just 5 days ago.

 

Just think. After the adultery, Kathy and I made NO progress for three years because I was such a blind, stubborn fool. After attending Life Skills, we made progress but it was slow going the first six months (almost indiscernable) and then sped up - but the hindrance was we had no help.

 

With the help you have here, you can make much faster progress.

[Joanna means gift]

Just wanted to publicly thank Peter for giving me flowers that say, "All that matter to me now is healing your heart." And for weeding my garden and buying mulch and sand for it. It looks beautiful and I have not had time to do anything to my grounds.

 

He has been offering several times a day to do whatever I need - drop off supper, take the children, etc. He states that he wants to do the "Joel and Kathy thing." I have enjoyed the nice treatment.

 

(But I need you to slow down and keep pace with my heart...)

Joanna

[Eeyore]

Peter, you are doing a good job of blessing her.

 

Joanna, you are doing a good job of telling him what you want and need. Keep it up.

 

We are continuing to pray for both of you!

 

Eeyore & HerDensity

[gms]

Good job Peter on doing what you can to be a blessing and make sure that you note that she is publicly praising you for your efforts.

 

Make sure you check in with her to see what she means by:

 

(But I need you to slow down and keep pace with my heart...)

 

Good job Peter and good job Joanna

[Peter]

[Pure in Heart]

[KathyandJoel]

Pure in Heart,

 

 

YOU GO GIRRL!!! (2 r's adopted from my

Shekinah)

 

Peter, if you could EVER get TEACHABLE, you could actually win your wife's heart back. TEACHABLE, you are not! Just being in your presense in the Intensive was more than enough for me, I can't even imagine how Elizabeth has survived living with you. UGH!

 

Still all about Peter!

 

Kathy

[Abigail]

Peter,

 

I do not have time right this moment to type out everything that may be helpful for you, but I do want to pop in quickly.

 

I know a lot about narcissists and malignant narcissism. I had your respect once, so here goes: (and please read this in a soft and calming voice):

 

I am praying that through your therapist's help, you have developed your healthy core a bit more and you have grown beyond the narcissist's lack of being able to separate himself from his Self Mirroring Objects.

 

(In other words, I am hoping that you have developed a bit beyond what is normal at the infantile level of personality development.)

 

If Shireen has been effective for you, then you know what these terms mean.

 

If you have developed your core some, then you will be less disposed to blame shift back that which the above posts are presenting.

 

I urge you to resist a narcissist's view of others as Self Mirroring Objects. I urge you to resist imploding back into your old self. I urge you to allow the truth meter that God himself placed inside of you to be drawn towards truth, even though that truth may make you feel bad in this moment.

 

It is the truth that sets us free. God, Himself, says so.

 

Truth is a double edged sword, however. At first, it hurts because it cuts away the bondages....but, with some time, when those cut wounds heal, the hurt goes away, the bondages are now gone, and you absolutely will be free.*

 

I will post to you again when I have time.

 

Love and truth, peace and forgiveness,

Abigail

 

* I am paraphrasing something Pure In Heart wrote. She is an amazing woman of God, who does not get angry easily. Please read her stuff from the beginning as testimony to this.

[Peter]

Well, thanks for the friendly welcome and it is great to be back on the forum! I was a little worried that perhaps the bitter women's club might not still be here, but thankfully, they have not gone away! I am glad that I still remain the "most wanted" husband, the prized kill, the worst possible case.... I would hate to lose my status.

I wrote that letter before my Uganda and Winnipeg trip, which I returned from tonight. I have been in discussion with Joel and many others, and in continuous prayer for my children and marriage. I have decided to join back again, for the sake of healing my wife and salvaging what might remain of our marriage before she divorces me. I am sure she is poised to file the divorce as soon as possible, but I just don't think that is God's intention for our future, and I love my children too much to allow this to happen, if I can have any influence on it at all!

I called Elisabeth when I landed and she told me it is all too late, go away and give up, but I believe nothing is too late, and God does actually want this family together and not apart. I know I want this family healed and believe me, I don't take returning to this website lightly! This is evidence that I am coming back to learn.

I reread the Mind of a Woman on the trip, and it showed me again the moral compass that God gives men (their wives), and the requirement to put the needs of the wife first. I am willing to give this a try now. It says that women don't actually take advantage of this empowerment (yet to witness this) and shows me how I am like many men who have absolutely no idea that their wives are in distress.

I am not at all against constructive criticism. Bring it on. I can try the teachable thing. Watch me. I will demonstrate, as best I can manage.

In terms of the first flaming letter from the first anonymous friend, thank you for your comments. I will try to make comments more about Elisabeth in future, so I don't talk about me as much. Here goes an attempt:

Because I was a pig-headed emotionally unaware husband who thought what we went through is simply what all couples go through, my wife became progressively more wounded, since her needs were not being met. She "warned" me about her concerns by reading many books about marriage and sex, and expressed that she was unhappy. She reached a point where she was so wounded she had to leave, despite the consequences. Right now she hates me so much that she wants a divorce, since she is unfulfilled and underprioritized in my life. She was not treated well, and since she is bold and not weak, she took a stand. She has always been more connected to God than I am, and she understands that she is not getting what she needs from the relationship. She understands relationships better than I do, since I have trouble relating to many people besides her. I have had poor modeling and have allowed my career to make me into an arrogant and self-centered person instead of a Christlike husband. Instead of putting her first, I put myself first. Let me know if any of this is correct! I am shooting from the hip here.

I have been reading a lot of M. Scott Peck, and he defines love as concern for the spiritual maturity of someone else. I have not done this, but I would like to learn how to.

I do agree that the porn and masturbation cycle encourages self-love. Now that I am living in (cautious) victory over this addiction through my 12 step program, I am seeing this more clearly.

I really want to hear what my wife wants. I cling to the few words she has said about her needs since she left. I would like to give her what she wants. We are in court over this right now unfortunately. Elisabeth, please tell me what you want. I am happy to give you an education if you want it. I think equal division of the assets would be fairer, but just tell me your concerns. I don't get why you want sole custody, since that will cut me out of future decision making for the kids, so just explain this to me. Once I manage to get a job, we can afford a new life. I would like to give you a new house, car and cottage. If you want to stay at home with the kids for the rest of her life, we could afford this. Instead of paying you monthly support, you can have all I make, the way it used to be. Is this what you want?

I spent the first six months of separation on this website, struggling with dying to myself. I failed. I was advised by many people to try another approach, that of letting her be and seeing if she might spontaneously talk to me, and if not, to enjoy a new life without her. I prepared for a new life by getting emotionally prepared for divorce, since she told me that is what she wanted. Now that we are on the brink of this, I am scared about it. I don't want to see the kids go through this, and I don't want to start again with another woman. I still kind of love her despite what has happened, and I have only ever loved one person, so I am afraid of starting a new relationship. I went through the full emotional preparation for divorce, including pretending that I was perfectly okay with it, so that she would not see my pain, since my pain is so irrelevant. "If you love something, set it free", right? I am so incompetent in dealing with this marriage problem, so I have made many mistakes. I just don't know how to get through this! I really want her to be happy, and if the only way she will be happy is to divorce me and start with another man, then she has my permission to do this. I am trying to release the control. If this is the route that will heal her, then I want her to do this for her own healing. If she would tell me that this is what she wants, then she can have it.

I would like to not return to my previous blame-shifting and to understand how to heal my wife. I have not learned this yet and I have returned to this website intentionally to try to change for the sake of my wife. It is not all about me. If it was, I would already be in a new relationship! I will stay here in an attempt to grow. I will take the wisdom in some of the posts from people like Abigail and try to ignore the childish ones like the one above from Kathy. I have such a difficult time with this hodgepodge of half-thought email quips from a bunch of anonymous people who think they know me because they have listened to my wife's side of the story. However, I am here. I am trying to salvage what little might be left of my former marriage and trying to see my wife healed. She is the most important person in the world to me, not myself. If she has something to say to me, please will she say it? I have been waiting so long to hear her input.

[Abigail]

Peter, Peter, Peter,

 

Hey, at least you've swallowed your pride enough to engage with this ministry again. High five.

 

Be very clear my man: The analysis and advise you have gotten, are getting, and will be getting is NOT based just on your wife's side of the story.

 

You will serve her, yourself, and our God mightily when you put that deeply held false notion aside. The real truth is the real truth is the real truth.

 

I apologize...I still do not have time until this weekend to write you properly, but one there is one fundamental thing that would also serve you to think about:

 

Try is a manipulation word. Not an evil manipulation, but it is actually non-committment wrapped in falsely earnest effort. For many, using "try" is a way to telegraph that they don't think that they will succeed, which, in a way, paradoxically, is an earnest effort to be accurate. Accuracy is good, but lack of confidence and hope will not get you to your goal. The thalamus actually obeys our own spoken words, so anyone who repeatedly uses "try" is actually setting him or herself up for failure at the outset.

 

I wrote something more in depth about the word "try" to 1savedman a couple or maybe a few months ago. You can research his string to find it.

 

One more quicky: We are not anonymous here. We tranparently tell truth. We may use pseodonyms, but what's in a name? A rose is a rose by any other. (Game show: Who said that?)

 

We hide from no one of good-willed intent. (Yes, some wives have had to put barriers between themselves and their abusive and ill-willed husbands in order to stop putting their hands on the scorching stove, but that is simply healthy boundaries given the context, not hiding.)

 

Peter, you would serve everyone, including yourself and our God if you would stop your jabs. 1 Corinthians 13. You are not having to fight the battles thrown at you during your childhood any longer. You do not have to throw poison to get them to stop hurting you any longer. (And the spirit in your "anonymous" jab is not even accurate.)

 

God will heal you when you ask Him to...with an earnest heart.

 

Love and truth, peace and forgiveness,

Abigail

 

PS: Make no mistake, the helpers are not bitter. Do not indulge in that convenient-to-the-old-Peter's-mindset. It will get you stuck as the old Peter.

[Abigail]

One last quicky: M. Scott Peck is amazing. Which one of his have you or are you reading?

 

Blessings,

Abigail

[Abigail]

Would love spell check here to correct my sometimes too fast fingers:

pseudonyms

transparently

[Peter]

What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,

Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part

Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? that which we call a rose

By any other name would smell as sweet;

 

Abigail, you are awesome.

[Looney_Tunes]

Peter, I really am glad you're back.

 

Your wife is an amazing woman. I hope you're really beginning to see that, and I hope you're beginning to realize that you have put yourself in the place you are now. Your wife did not marry you with the intention of becoming a witch and making your life miserable. She wanted to ride off into the sunset with you and live happily ever after, but you threw her off the horse.

 

One of the first things you need to do is to learn to appreciate the helpers on this forum. If you can't take correction from us, you will never be able to listen to your wife. I'm betting you haven't taken correction from anyone in quite some time.

 

We are not bitter. We don't hate you. We simply see you for who you really are. We are trying to help you.

 

I've met you, remember? Your ego is off the charts. You obviously think pretty highly of yourself and not very much of anyone else. Maybe that's not what you really think, but that's how you come across, and I think it's a front for the very scared, insecure little boy who lives inside you.

 

Do you remember when we were at dinner the Saturday of our intensive? We sat near each other, and we talked a little shop. Your whole demeanor changed when you were talking about your work, and for just a minute I think I saw the man your wife fell in love with. I liked him - but then you shut down and he disappeared. That's why I'm posting to you - because I think he's still in there somewhere.

 

The question is, will you let him out, or are you going to continue to hide him behind that stone wall and shoot flaming arrows?