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I don't even know how to report my latest interaction with Peter. He made it to the recital and apologized to Rachel. But he remains obsessed with talking to me outside of the forum and phone calls which I am not comfortable with. Whenever these interactions happen, I lose ground in the "de-brainwashing" aspect of my recovery. He states so many things as fact that are feelings. He says things like, "I am going to get you back, you are my wife." I cannot pinpoint what is wrong with it - it might be the tone, like, "Don't you dare even dream of a life without me, because I will not let you."


SO, even when the kids were present, he insisted on talking to me about the marriage and things like that. I had to refuse further interaction three times even though I specifically told him that I had plans and that I did not feel comfortable being alone with him. He also commanded me to interact with his mother and sister, as if I was going to avoid them.


He also dropped a bomb, knowing it would knock me off balance. He told me, "Well, I already have a job [in another city.]" When we actually talked details what he meant was a job offer, and he meant he would stay in this city as long as it took for us to fix our marriage and then take the job, which he describes as his "dream job."


I explained to him that I would not be in a position to live in another city with him and without my support base for a long time - 6-12 months. He winced. I also explained that he would likely be able to move in more quickly if he stayed here, since I would have the support I need to do this.


That is enough for now. He will likely chime in soon. But my overall impression is that he is still all about himself, right down to the way he pushed to see the girls, stating that they are his, like they are possessions.



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Kay, please keep your comments limited to what you know...


This pretty much spells it out that Peter, you have the mind set that woman are idiots. That you are a man, and therefore are on a higher level as us. Your treatment of your wife is very sad. Unfortunately, you can't see this, because in your mind, she is a woman, and no woman is going to tell me what to do, or how to do it.


The proper response to anyone telling you something, regardless of whether it is a woman or man is........ "Thanks for pointing that out!" Where is your gratitude ? We are here to help you, not to TELL you anything. You are here to learn. The sooner you figure this out, the better.


Joanna, the reason why your husband wants to talk to you, outside these boards and calls, is because he can "control" you better. He doesn't have us to call him on his behavior. And, the last thing he wants is for us to help you see his attitude for what it is.


Bottom Line............. It doesn't matter what you say to any of us. We see your weakness (Pride and Arrogance) and we are here to help you see it for yourself, so you can "die" to it, and hopefully, save your Marriage!



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More abuse to report. He told me yesterday that he would come to church IF I agreed to sit with him. But I knew this would ruin my wonderful experience with my loving family at my church. And I knew that it was his way of avoiding the humiliation of coming but not being with me - pride is still reigning. I called this morning to confirm that I would not give in to this demand. He said okay I will bring the kids - who love our church - and pick them up (he has them for the weekend).


I said, "It is your business if you come or not, but drop off the kids." He said,"Finally, something is MY business in all of this."


I went to church, they did not show up, no call, no call afterwards. Of course, it hurt me deeply. I miss the girls when they are with him. No apology for not doing what was planned. And of course, no posts on here.

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Hi Peter-


I can understand where you feel like you may have communicated clearly, and I wasn't privy to the conversation, so I'm not taking sides (not that I would anyway), but - and I say this with no fear of revocation - trying to engage in a spitting contest like this will in no way bring healing to your wife's heart or your marriage. Apologizing for any hurt you caused your wife (purposely or not) and asking how you could make yourself more clear in the future would be a better route.




I was utterly crystal clear on the phone this morning that we would go to another church.
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IF you communicated clearly - why did you let me tell you when to drop off and pick up the kids? Why would I say that? Once again, you were not listening at all to me. I stated twice that I would see the children at church. I also told you when church begins and ends. I was clear that you were not coming, not that the children were not coming.



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I was utterly crystal clear on the phone this morning that we would go to another church.


Bummer. You chose "self-defense" instead of choosing to see this as an opportunity hear her heart and heal her hurts. Your self-focused justification and self-defense is akin to a karate chop to the gut for her.


Instead, somehow, somewhere (hopefully at an intensive) you need to learn that any self-defense is best used with other men, not women, and most of all, NOT your wife! THAT is the exact behavior that landed you here in the first place. So its really high time you see it for what it is - death to her heart - and let it go.


Letting "your desire to defend go" is exactly what is known to the men as 'death to self'. And though its VERY hard for you to see right now, once you actually want to try this and learn to DO this and you will begin to see the glimmer in her eyes that you once saw in your dating days, you will begin to FEEL a sense of pride and accomplishment for doing something GOOD.


But until then, it looks like its gonna be a long bumpy ride. You have some great helpers here. Ya might wanna listen to 'em!


And once you decide to JOIN 'em instead of fighting 'em, you will also find an amazing new family of loving support here too.


Your choice.

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Peter, Peter, Peter.


You state in your footer that you are no longer angry....hmm, are you sure about that? :wink:


It's always darkest before the dawn....so many drown a few feet from the shore, after swimming for miles....God can lead us to the river, but then it's up to each of us to drink from the waters.


Your carnal man is kicking and screaming to stay in control.....but we all know that it is the one who loses his life, is the one who actually gains it.


Release control Peter....and yes, here's a high five for the good acts you performed for your wife....but obviously she is taking issue with your still intact abusive spirit.


(I can't believe you turned the tables on her hopeful and giving gesture to make love to you, and are now painting it as manipulation.....bad show Peter. But alas, your doing so is pretty textbook.)


Totally hopeful: You admit that both you and your sister suffer from malignant narcissistic tendencies. That, in itself, shows that you may be teachable....if you can get over your tantrum....and is evidence that you are not yet a hardened one. (Hardened narcissists, by definition, can not admit that they are. Hmmm, then again, Sam Valkin admits, but does not change....oh yes....he's not a Christian, and therefore he won't be able to change.)


Anyway, I hope that you can hear my gentle tone. I am actually kind of giggling....please do not take offense....just take it as evidence that you can not offend us....we actually teach the heart of God when it comes to marriage.


(We're not the only ones....J&K had mentors...and there are other Christian ministries that agree...including Gary Smalley and the creators of Fireproof.....it's just that no one gets into the trenches with the worst of the worst marriages...for as little money...as do J&K.)


And there are plenty of secular corroborators too. Here's one secular book: Good Husband, Great Marriage by Robert Alter. Lots of swearing in it though....and so totally relatable for a secular carnal man. There are many other secular books that echo the message. And Shakespeare had it right too: Taming of the Shrew is perfectly God's way....and perfect in its acknowledgement of our cultures bias against women...shrew is not a very nice term, is it? The good part is that because Petrucchio initiated true love and acceptance of her, Kate did, indeed, respond with love and loveliness back....she was no longer a "shrew."


The reason I cite these is to show that this is NOT some whacked viewpoint of marriage....it is the right one. A husband disparaging a wife for trying to get him to stop abusing her is not promoting the no-brainer ways of reconciliation. A husband who disparages his wife for trying to get him to stop being a self-absorbed emotional youngun' is not laying down his life.


We are here to deliver truth in love. To a carnal man, who does not want to have to give up his goodies, that truth sounds really nasty.


Take a deep breath Peter....and count backwards from 10.


You are smart....you can do this.


Love and truth, peace and forgiveness,


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Oh - if you do choose to throw in the towel, you will certainly not be the first.


Many men high tail it outta here when they realize that, for the first time in their lives, they are not able to manipulate and fool us.


The sad part is that instead of allowing true transformation to occur....which will bring such bliss in the long run....they choose to blame shift and disparage, which keeps them stuck in the same old, same old.


When we do things God's way, all is forgiven. Try not to be afraid of admitting your self-willfullness. Again, he who loses his life.....gains it.


I dare you to stay. :wink: Up for the challenge?



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Dory stop trying to manipulate my expression. I am here to communicate with everyone here including my wife. I am free to send the exact post to my wife, so why try to prevent me from putting it here, where you can all attack it openly? Is this a marriage forum for discussion or a selective edited opinion poll? If Joel and Kathy don't want expression of my feelings on this site, why would they give me permission to post here?

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Peter, maybe you should grab someone off the street and have them come on to this thread and read to you all of your posts. I bet hearing what you are saying in the way they would read it would give you an idea of how you come across when you post that way (rude, abrasive, defensive, always right, possessive, prideful). For someone who claims they do not want to lose their wife and do not want a divorce all you are doing is putting yourself firmly on that path.


Dory proved nothing by removing your post. It was all about you, self-centred vomit. If you were thinking about your wife and putting her first you would consider how what you say affects your wife and then, thinking about that, you would hold your tongue, cut it off, close your lips, lock your mouth and throw out the key.


It is not too late to win back your wife. She gave you a list of what she needs. Follow that and you stand a chance of a partnership with her instead of the dictatorship you seem to think you have right to.


Before you email that post directly to your wife think of how it will make her feel and pray she did not already read it. I really hope you take my first suggestion seriously. Find someone you do not know and ask them to read to you your posts. If you get offended at their tone of voice or hear a pity party it will be obvious that the helpers really are here to help and you are still stuck on yourself and wanting to do it your way.

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I am here to communicate with everyone here including my wife. I am free to send the exact post to my wife, so why try to prevent me from putting it here, where you can all attack it openly? Is this a marriage forum for discussion or a selective edited opinion poll? If Joel and Kathy don't want expression of my feelings on this site, why would they give me permission to post here?


This is not a place to hurt wives, this is a place to heal wives and since your note was NOT of the latter, it was removed. This is J&K's forum and not a free for all, so if Kathy tells me to move it, I move it. Period. YOu will have permission to post and vomit in the Private Men's section all you want. But be warned that the instructions for the private mens' section is as follows:

This is a section for husband's who may need to just "vent" or get help on things that might hurt a wife's feelings to see posted on a public forum. Request special permission from God's Mighty Soldier, Largeone50 or from JoelandKathy to gain access. For Men Only. This is not a place to vent when the husband, is self gratifying, into porn, has a girlfriend, spending money and not telling her, lying or any host of other things. Remember men, if you are not living right, you CANNOT expect your wife to be a great wife - her highly advanced "receptor" brain is reacting to you even if she does not know "what" you are doing. Do not bother venting here if you are still into these things. You are causing it. However, if you are truly changing and you are going through the painful process of death - and need a place to vent, then you can do so here. This is a healing process. Also, a wife is not going to be perfect immediately (unless she is like Kathy, perfect in every way!) If you are in pain, you don't "dump" that on her. You can dump it here. When you are mature and Christlike and she is healed and you are both happy, it will all be in the past anyway. Warning. Toxic dumping ground here.

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No one is wanting to wound you for the sake of sounding off here. God will send the faithful to wound us to bring about the blessing of healing to you and your marriage. God has created a man to be dared and challenged in his attitudes and heart. This is "being a man" and understanding that he already has all the power within his own hand to give love or to give his wife death. It is already within your power because you are the SOURCE to her. What is it that flows from the well-spring of your life toward your wife? What can your wife believe about you by what proceeds out of your behavior, actions and attitudes?? Do they reveal Christ to her? Can she see Christ at all? Out of the overflow of the true condition of our heart and spirit will a man speak. When you speak... are they words of blessing and life that she would run to you looking for the presence and nearness of her God? Do you look like Jesus to her...can she trust you like Jesus...pour out her sorrow to you as if you are Christ to her? You have been called by God with this high calling. Perhaps you have underestimated your value to your God in obeying this?


God is not just looking for "outward" behavior but also the intent and motive of the heart. In Ephesians God spoke of this as a double-edged sword...it CUTS through all the outward facades and defense mechanisms we are so familiar with to get to the heart of the matter.


In marriage for God...it is the "heart" of your wife that matters. God knows that when a man truly gives of his best and highest to his wife that man will mature and be transformed into the image of His dear Son. God has actually given you a great honor in asking you, a husband to go to the same place He asked the SON of GOD to go to. We all have our Cross to bear and carry.


For the wife her "death to self" is risking her heart again to give her husband the chance to step up and say God, I will...I will obey you. It is not easy for a wife who has suffered disregard, all of her marriage, to go there again with her husband. It is because she has consistently met and come against every form of abuse in her husband. She longs to self-protect and not want to confront these destructive behaviors in her husband. She knows ahead of time what is the usual outcome for her. She goes against every fear inside her heart to say...Lord, I will obey you and try and reach your man, your son. Her heart has reached out and reached out to him a million times just to connect...so that together they are that portrayal of God's own love and marriage to His Bride. If you were truly honest...you must admit that yes, when she wanted YOU to hear her, validate her voice, her opinion, her need, her gift and calling within her...you turned her away time and time again. Men can find those weapons in their arsenal to silence her...either by cutting her off or cutting her down. That is NOT the sword God asks a husband to slay his wife's heart with.


Men grow by being challenged...a wife grows by being cherished. This is God's design. There is no other way God has instructed a man to obey him in his marriage...God gave His Son and now you, his son give your agenda up for your bride. It is truly that simple. Yet, like most truths in God's Word the depths of it are unsearchable. Peter, get on this journey and explore the treasures God has put within the wife he has given to you as your most valuable asset and even God's voice of how to do relationship in the earth...with her, your children and in your sphere of influence.


Take a deep breath...cast your care on the Lord and stay in that place of surrender and humility. You will be blessed.



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We had a phone conversation tonight in which a lot of issues were discussed. I tried my best to demonstrate to her that I was willing to die to myself by agreeing with her accusations of me and accepting blame for our marriage problems. I told her I drove her to leave me and that I am narcissistic. I told her I change my viewpoint and actions even within one day. She said I have destroyed her and I agreed. We had open conversation about my job interviews and her relationship with my family.


She explained her concerns about the safety of our children around my father and how I am more loyal to my family than to her. I was mostly able to suppress talking about my emotions. I lost control during the family issues, and told her she was vindictive. I apologized for keeping her on the phone too long and pushing her to come back to me. I prayed for her healing and told her I wanted to meet her needs. I sarcastically told her she didn't need to be wounded for the next week after talking to me, and this was a big mistake. I reminded her that she is in control of reconciliation if it occurs, and that I wanted to work for her.


I am in a cosmic struggle as you all have seen. I am failing every day to be the man God wants me to be. I thank my wife for being such a valuable asset to me for 15 years despite my parasitism. I have taken and she has given. I want this to change. I want to give and she can take. I want her to be happy, with or without me. I love her so much and yet am so unaware of how to heal her, even after all this reading.


She did say I have started to grow up in a very tiny way. I appreciate this. She is not ready to meet me in person, which I understand. I just want her needs to be met now and in future. I have been such a fool.

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I am in a cosmic struggle as you all have seen.


Yes, we have all seen this, but, we are all hopeful because we still see positive steps being made. Your post above was good. Honest.


I want to be honest with you, too. The reason why I keep staying here, to try to help, even though, I keep telling myself to back off, is because you remind me a lot of my husband. (The old man, guy) We struggled for 2 years. We attended an Intensive, too. He quit. I filed. So much wasted time, all because he refused to "die" Your post, before this one, where you blasted this Ministry, was very de ja vu for me. Mine threatened to sue J & K. Why am I telling you this ? Because........... this program works. It took him realizing that I had given up on him, and he was losing me, his family, for him to finally throw his arms up in the air and surrender. Once this choice was made, the rest was fairly easy, and we steadily moved forward. Our divorce will be officially canceled in a week.


Don't get so frustrated and upset when we get on your case. We all know that you can change and you can be the husband that your wife needs. It may seem so unfair right now, but please trust us. The other side is one happy place! You both CAN get there. We all have faith in you, but the question is, do you have faith in yourself ? Can you do this?


Continuing to pray for your family,


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She explained her concerns about the safety of our children around my father and how I am more loyal to my family than to her.
Your children have a wonderful mother!


I sarcastically told her she didn't need to be wounded for the next week after talking to me, and this was a big mistake
ANY sarcasm is a HUGE mistake.


I am in a cosmic struggle
For sure.


I thank my wife for being such a valuable asset to me for 15 years despite my parasitism.
Print this sentence out and stick it on your bathroom mirror.


She did say I have started to grow up in a very tiny way.
"Tiny" is big!


I have been such a fool.


But where there's life, there's Hope!


The Holy Spirit transformed Paul the Apostle! He had been high-handedly putting men, women and children in prison. AND, he thought he was right! There's hope for you too. Then, there will be hope for your wife's emotional welfare. Then, there will be hope for your marriage.

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Peter - back to the basics. Based on your statement that you don't know how to heal her heart.


1. Listen to her expressed needs, listen to her heart

2. Do what she asks of you - meet her expressed needs including observing any and all boundaries she currently has in place

3. Keep your promises

4. Take responsibility for the ways you have wonded her or are still wounding her, apologize, admit that you are/were wrong and ask her what you can do to bring healing in this area in particular

5. At all times show her love (agape) and this love comes from Jesus first to you and then through you to her


If you do these things consistently over time you will rebuild trust with her, she will then be willing to open her heart to you and let her emotions out, if you handle her emotions with gentleness and love she will begin to heal from the wounds you have caused and at the same time you will be growing as a man emotionally, putting aside childish ways and daily putting your self (sin-nature) to death - daily by faith consider yourself as dead to sin in Christ, buried with Christ and alive to God in the resurrected Christ. Christ is your source of life so that you can be a source of life for Joanna. As she is healed and you grow that is the foundation for reconcilation and moving forward as husband and wife on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ into all that He has for Peter and Joanna as one flesh for His glory.

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Kay said

Once this choice was made, the rest was fairly easy, and we steadily moved forward.




This is also true in my marriage, since my husband made the choice to truly let GOD have control, instead of taking it back time and time again, and finally decided to give this program a real chance, we have been continuously making progress.


I say that to you because what I see is you consistently trying to take back the control of everything in your marriage, instead of giving it up to God. You can have all the control you want, but you will end up losing your marriage, and I believe that is not what you want. As difficult as it is for you, you will have to let God give you every step, through this forum, through the bible, through what you learned at the intensive, and the books and such..


Have you read Ken Nairs two books? If not, I believe they would be of great benefit to you. Start with "Understanding the Mind of a Woman", and then read "Understanding the Heart of a Man". they are both invaluable resources. Keep reading every resource that J & K recommend, so that you can get the teaching in different perspectives. it may help you to see things in a different light, and fill in the pieces that you seem to be missing. Keep trying, don't give up. YOU can do this.

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This will be my final posting on this website. I have decided that the conflicting advice of 100 amateur psychologists is not helpful and has indeed been harmful to our reconciliation. My marriage problems have been broadcast far and wide over the internet for you all to weigh in your unprofessional suggestions and your biases. You are a bunch of bitter and opinionated ordinary people, only some of which have any success in marriage to base your judgments on.


My professional counselor has shown me that my intimate secrets are none of your business and that a web forum is not the environment to heal a marriage. There are boundaries that need to be drawn for my own healing, and I have drawn them.


I will continue to communicate with my wife when she is willing to do so, and continue to learn to die to myself and heal my wife's heart using the books I have been reading. I have learned a lot and have a long way to go but I cannot any longer expose myself to this menagerie of opinions. Sorry to those who spent their time writing on my string, some of which was wise. Sorry to Abigail who is the only one of you who helpers who really demonstrated true wisdom.


I have not seen the benefits espoused by this program in six months of involvement. My wife continues to avoid me despite her involvement and my agonizing participation, soul searching and effort. Many promises have not been fulfilled and I really regret wasting my time here.

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Hi there Peter. My name is John. My wife and I lead the Thursday night call. I would be glad to talk to you on the phone calls. Also, if you are in the Chicago area I would be glad to meet you face to face. I feel and understand your pain. I too have had my feeling hurt on the forums. However, I have learned that the things that hurt me the most were the things I needed to change the most in order to become a much better husband. I have not read your thread at all so I don't know all the details of your marriage. I do not need to know certain details to know that your perspective and attitude of this program is very wrong. Just by reading your post I can understand that you are frustrated. However, your energy should be aimed at healing your wife and marriage. This programs WORKS when you work the program. I too thought that I was a great husband. I did a lot of wonderful things for my wife. She left me for 6 months. I to could not understand how she could break our marriage vows. Unfortunately, I was all too willing to blame her for our problems. I failed to look at how my actions were causing her pain. A lot of pain. It doesn't matter how much good we are doing if we are also doing more hurtful things to our wives. Our problems did not turn around until I took responsibility for my own actions. I needed to take ownership for my actions. I needed to stop blaming my wife for reacting to the hurtful ways I was treating her. Without knowing you, I could pretty much guess that you are still blaming your wife for many things and putting her down. I really hope you try to hear these words. You need to change in order to save your marriage. If your wife is not responding then I bet that you have NOT HEALED HER HEART. Unfortunately, in your post I did not see much sorrow or remorse for your actions. You said that you don't have any control anymore. In fact you have the power to control your situation. You are responsible for your actions. Can you understand how much pain you have caused your wife? Do you want to learn how to stop hurting your wife? You have the power to heal your wife's heart. You have the power to change your actions. Now your wants have to be backed up by your actions. If you want to win your wife's heart back YOU have to change. You have to focus on listening to your wife. You have to learn to hear your wife and understand how to meet HER NEEDS. You have to learn to love her unselfishly the way she needs to be loved. I understand that this is hard for you. That is because you are self focused and looking at your wants and needs. That is why you are in the position you are in unfortunately. Your way has not worked. You are on the brink of divorce. I strongly suggest that you have a better attitude about the program and show show your wife thqat you love her and that you are sorry for all the years of pain you have caused her by your own actions. We reap what we sow. You caused your wife to make this decision because of the wqay you were hurting her and treating her. This program is about learning how to become Christ-like. That is a goal every husband should strive for. Please realize that you hurt your wife. Try to feel her pain. Show her by all you actions that you are truly sorry for your actions. Show an action of change. Put her first. Show her that you cherish her by the way she needs you to love her. Do not expect any change in your wife until you have been consistly loving her the way she needs you to love her.


Here is a little analogy. You are trying to open a combination lock repeatedly with the wrong combination. You blame the lock for not popping open. You want the lock to respond to you even though you are putting in the wrong combination code. That is what you are doing with your wife. Your wife is giving you the right code. Joel and Kathy and the other helpers are giving you the right code. You just have to be willing to use the right code that you have been given. I hope that helps you understand.


People are here because they care. Learning new behaviors can be hard. I also know that it can be very worth it. A year ago I was hurting my wife because I was very selfish. Today my wife says she is happier now then she has ever been and I am leading phone calls. Laying you life down for your wife is so worth it. Seeing the joy in your wife's eyes is the best reward for becomming Christ-like. You can do it if you really make that choice. Good luck. Call in on the group call tomorrow night if you want to talk.

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Someone who loves people and has the anointing of God's Spirit does not need a degree to speak to you. Jesus Christ spoke through ordinary means to explain profound spiritual truths. I myself do not have a "psychology" degree but I do have a degree in theology. Yet, all of previous studies in God's Word has never equaled the sum of my life's experiences.


My husband and I went to 5 counselors all with degrees. I privately have gone to a Psychiatrist, group therapy and well-known Christian counselors all to NO AVAIL. My marriage at the time I thankfully and gratefully came upon J&K was in the throes of a 6 year separation. The details of my marriage are worse than the state of yours...within 7 months my marriage has turned around and my husband is now the most loving, generous, Christ-like man I have ever met.


It is sad to me for your wife...the Spirit of God in her knows this ministry is life and healing for her marriage...and just have you have done all of your married life...you will shut out the TRUTH of God just so you can have some false sense of control. We will love Joanna if you will not and we know by the truth of God's Word she will come through this even if that means without you.

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