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Peter,

 

Tell me if I get this right. You have returned to this forum to:

 

Learn selflessness

Put aside "childish things" (AKA immature belief systems)

Heal your wife of the damage you have done, whether she wants to remain married to you or not.

 

If these are your expressed motives, then your addressing marital assets, the custody of your children, the job locations you desire, and clawing your way back from "the brink of this" because of your fear is not going to get you to the goals listed above.

 

What I see in your post is still the very mixed message of

"I want help, but only on my terms. I will listen to Abigail, but I'm free to be disrespectful and dismissive of others."

If I can be so bold, I would like to share something for you to maximize your experience here on the J & K forum the second time around. If you don't begin to embrace a different attitude in short order, your time here will be as brief as your commitment to

I am trying to release the control.

 

First, the feedback or insight about your life or your relationship is neither good nor bad. It is just feedback. So try not to be so judgmental or "shoot the messenger" if you don't agree with them. BTW, we are not "haters" or "bitter", really, we all have busy lives full of responsibilities and our own share of challenges. When someone takes the time to post, 90% of the time it is with really good intentions.

 

Second, when you receive another's insight or perspective, consider that they may have many decades of life experiences to draw from, so try not to paint us all in such broad strokes of whether we are "exactly" like your situation or not. When you do this, you miss out on some really helpful information.

 

Third, when you find you are resistant to what someone is saying, be willing to ask yourself some questions like:

Why does this make me so angry?

Is this too painful for me to look at right now?

Do I want to be right, or do I want to walk in truth and love?

Sometimes staying in the questions can tell you alot about yourself and your belief system. Sit with it awhile before you react. I know this is difficult at times, but can give you precious time to really hear from the Spirit of God as He wants to lead you in the truth.

 

Fourth, Suggestions, advice or insight about your life and situations are like jackets: they won't all fit you, but you won't know until you try it on.

Sometimes it doesn't fit because it is too tight; we find it limits us and what our head is telling us is right for us. We are sure it will squeeze the life right out of us if we try. Maybe God wants us to lose some excess weight to fit into it.

Sometimes it doesn't fit because it is too loose; we might have to grow up a little and grow into the fit that ultimately will be fabulous.

Sometimes it doesn't fit us because we judge it to be absurdly stupid or uncool; we see it like it will be permanent and perhaps the jacket is only for the current season.

Sometime it doesn't fit us because it is for a different occasion. It might be perfect then, but right now doesn't seem the right fit.

Sometimes it is a lovely jacket, but after consideration, and trying it on for a bit, we see that it really isn't for us. It doesn't mean that the giver was wrong; they were sincerely trying to meet your heartfelt need for a jacket.

 

Fifth, Unlike your previous foray on the boards, It is most effective when you stay posting here on your own thread and in this case, let your wife, find healing, insight and support on her own thread, have her thread to herself. When a man "hijacks" his wife's thread, you control the thread and people find themselves responding to the husband and the wife's questions go unspoken. By all means, talk about your situation and express yourself on your own thread because:

This is more efficient.

This is more courteous.

This is more emotionally mature.

This gives a woman greater emotional safety and the freedom to speak her mind without the fear of retribution or defensiveness from a controlling husband.

 

Sixth, trust the process and surrender the outcome. Life is not tidy, it is very, very messy. You can't wrap relationships up in a few months of "to do" lists. It doesn't work that way. But, if you trust that the Lord has called you to seek wise counsel and that He will prosper you when you seek His ways, you can trust the outcome to Him. The outcome will be what it will be. Trying to control it completely is like trying to play God. You end up, face down in the mud, wondering how did it all go so wrong.

 

Seven, and for now my final suggestion, You always get to choose. When someone asks you to do something, or makes a suggestion that you do something or even requires you to do something, you always get to choose. You make a choice and you are also choosing the consequences of that choice. So, you are never in jail, metaphorically speaking. You have made all your own choices in your adult life. Some of which you are proud of, some which have nearly destroyed you, and some which you don't even know why you did what you did. Nonetheless, they are your choices. Others also are affected by our choices, so the consequences of our choices are almost never in isolation. Your wife also has choices. You cannot choose for her. You cannot control her. She has to choose for herself. The sooner you get this concept, the better all of your relationships will be: with God, with yourself, with wife, with family, with everyone.

 

I hope you find this helpful.

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I see that Looney and I were posting at the same time. I don't want to distract from what she said. Let it sink in a moment before you read the rest of my post.

 

You asked for some feedback, so here it is:

 

Because I was a pig-headed emotionally unaware husband who thought what we went through is simply what all couples go through, my wife became progressively more wounded, since her needs were not being met. She "warned" me about her concerns by reading many books about marriage and sex, and expressed that she was unhappy. She reached a point where she was so wounded she had to leave, despite the consequences. Right now she hates me so much that she wants a divorce, since she is unfulfilled and underprioritized in my life. She was not treated well, and since she is bold and not weak, she took a stand. She has always been more connected to God than I am, and she understands that she is not getting what she needs from the relationship. She understands relationships better than I do, since I have trouble relating to many people besides her. I have had poor modeling and have allowed my career to make me into an arrogant and self-centered person instead of a Christlike husband. Instead of putting her first, I put myself first. Let me know if any of this is correct!

 

Yes, this is closer to what is needed in your mindset if you are really committed to winning your wife's heart back. The trouble is, I can't tell if you were being facetious when you wrote it... like the attitude, "Is the absurdity you people want me to speak?" (For example, you said your wife "warned" you that she was concerned about your marriage. Why the quotes? It makes it sound like you are mocking what she did. Like doing those things wasn't a sufficient way of communicating with you.)

 

But in case you are sincerely asking for input, you really do need to "swallow" the truth about the state of things. Everything that you are faced with right now--the divorce, the reality of not having any custody of your girls--was caused by you. The responsibility rests squarely on your shoulders.

 

But here's the break down... it is clear from your words that you aren't completely convinced that what the Bible teaches about marriage is really true. Because then things like this slip out:

 

Now that we are on the brink of this, I am scared about it. I don't want to see the kids go through this, and I don't want to start again with another woman. I still kind of love her despite what has happened, and I have only ever loved one person, so I am afraid of starting a new relationship.

 

You still "kind of love HER"--as if you are the one who should be falling out of love with HER? This doesn't sound like a man who is working to win his wife's heart back. Maybe it is honest, but it certainly isn't effective.

 

While it may seem noble that you are "doing what's best for the kids," it's really not. What is best for your girls is to see their Daddy loving and cherishing their mother because he is committed to HER, not the concept that God wants them together. Do you see the difference? Because your girls intuitively can. Kids know when their parents are going through the motions and they aren't really happy... I am sure that is not what you want, but if you aren't going after this for YOUR WIFE, you just won't be successful.

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Peter,

 

Bless your heart....that is awesome news. Hey, you put the letter on the forum so it was up for grabs. :D The point is that it helps you realize the dynamics of how you relate to your wife so you are aware of it. We can not change what we are in ignorance of. You shall KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. Knowledge is power. Paul said, the Gospel IS the power of God. When our lives are put up against the backdrop of truth it is then and only then we can see where we fall short.

 

God shows us the truth about ourselves NOT to condemn us but so that we will move toward a place of wholeness in Him. It is we who hold God at a distance for fear He will reveal us. Yet, God's heart is not to take something from us it is to get blessing and healing to us. Most times, Peter, God must remove many hindrances and obstacles out of our way for our own good. We stumble over the same things and grope in the darkness. That is why Isaiah cried out, "to raise up the foundations and to remove every rock and boulder out of the way...to allow God to make the crooked way straight."

 

No one likes to be disciplined or corrected by the Lord...it is unpleasant for a time but it reaps many rewards by those who are trained by it.

 

Peter, my husband was a man whose thinking was just like yours. He was abusive and very controlling. Everything centered around him. He left me and our two sons for 6 years. It was his way or the highway. He was so busy keeping us under his thumb he never looked at himself. He was so distracted by protecting his ego that the hearts of a wife and children were deserted and left to die. When I found this ministry there was no hope for our marriage. I spun my wheels for years trying to love him into change. Ironically, the opposite happened, he grew worse and escalated his demands. The grave and the flesh say, will never say, Enough!!....they can never be satisfied.

 

The good news is that he changed. He is not the same man. His former arrogance and pride are gone. He is the most loving and strong man I have ever met. He is kind and generous of spirit. In only 4 weeks of making a decision to lay his life down for me and sincerely committing to that in his heart...the divorce was cancelled and we ahve been been walking God's design of marriage out for a year. It is amazing how something so simple has such far-reaching effects. Our sons too are coming along and he is winning their love and respect back.

 

I am not speaking to you from a high horse...I am not a man basher nor am I bitter toward my husband or men. I do however, reverence my Lord and I defend righteousness and justice. I am a child of God and I should do this. If I see abuse, Peter, or a man blind and on the wide path of destruction...should I not cry out to him and say, get off, get off this path for it leads to destruction. If the truth of God's Word wounds him then I am his friend. An enemy laughs behind your back but is sweet to your face. He will rejoice over your demise....Jesus will weep.

 

As a matter of fact, I believe that God set-apart His sons and called them to a high calling. God needs men of meekness and integrity, lovers and strong leaders in our lost world. The whole earth is groaning, waiting for sons of God to be revealed. All God is asking you is will you take up His mantle? Will you hear His call, and say, Here am I, Lord? Will you let him cover you in a garment of true manhood and Christ-likeness.

 

I pray you will stay here and let J&K and those of us who love God and who love your marriage help you. It truly is like a family. If we see you stray give us permission to pull you back in. No one will force you or make you. Let God bring you to an open and spacious place where you can breath again and smile. Let him enlarge the boundaries of your heart and His dwelling place in your spirit.

 

God's grace and Spirit cover you,

 

Pure in Heart

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Peter, I will admit that the tone of your post did not convince me in the least that you actually believe any of this, but it's something I chose not to address at the moment. I agree with the others, though - it sounds like you're saying what you think you're supposed to say in order to get your wife back. It doesn't sound like you actually believe one word of it.

 

PROVE ME WRONG!!! I dare you!

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Peter, you have some good sound advice here on your string right now. Please heed it. The choice is yours.

 

From your letter I have the impression that you believe that if your wife were to divorce you then that would mean that your relationship with her is done. That the 'divorce' is the final letter of the law. I just wanted to point out that this is a two year commitment you are making to work to become Christlike whether your your wife divorces you or not. Look at ForHimForHer's thread here on the forums. He is divorced from his wife and now appears to be so close to actually winning her back! We are all praying with him for this end result as we would be with you as you committed to winning your wife back with a divorce in place or without a divorce in place. That is all I wanted to point out. You have an amazing opportunity right now. Please don't let the 'd' word scare you off.

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Thank you all. I can assure you that I am not being facetious or ingenuine. I am here to learn. I appreciate input especially when it is written with gentle wisdom instead of some of the temper tantrums I have read.

I do see divorce as permanent. That is the purpose of divorce. I can't fathom using divorce as a tool to lead to reconciliation any more than using a gun as a tool to heal. Anyway, that is my wife's choice. If she chooses to divorce me, I will take that as a sure sign that whatever we had is over.

I do believe what I am saying. In 12 step we talk about "act as if", and it will lead to change. I believe I hurt my wife even though I did not know I was doing it. I believe she had good reason to leave me. I am not reciting lines from books here, I do believe this. I will stay here and accept input.

I am not mocking. I put quotes around "warned" since this message was never clearly stated, but should have been interpreted from her behaviors.

I am ready for an ego hit. I can see the value in the Nair teaching. I want to see my wife healed through my death. I am going to use this approach to heal her heart, whether or not she responds. I need to clean up the mess I caused in this relationship. I will not try, I will succeed. God has spoken to me to repent or perish, and I have listened.

 

At the intensive I arrived directly from India. I had no idea what time zone I was in. None of you will know that my last week was spent dealing with the criminal "justice" system there after a woman was killed in a motor vehicle accident with me. My wife had left a month before, with no explanation, and I was completely in the dark as to what was wrong. I had a three month time window to get things back together before we lost our house and job there. During those three months, I was scheduled to work in Canada full time. I was under a lot of pressure to get back to India so that our work would not be jeopardized. I felt very obliged to our donors, who provide all of our resources and to whom we have to explain our failings. I was faced for the first time with the idea that I was to blame for everything, not just part of the problem. We went home and I asked Elisabeth to please quickly salvage the marriage. Of course, I had no idea how bad things really were. This is not justification, but gives you all some idea why I was antagonistic at the intensive.

 

Do I still love my wife? The answer is yes. I love her now like I loved her before she left like I loved her when we first told each other that this thing was for life, come hell or high water. She is a prize and a gift given by God for my great benefit. I am trying so hard to tell her she can go and live her own life, so I need to hide my true feelings so that she thinks I am strong and distant and aloof. She told me I had no feelings, so I am acting like I have none, but the fact is that I cry now and never did before.

 

I believe in the sanctity of marriage as as institution given by God. I know that many marriages are fake, but that society is still based on family units that do not break apart because one person is unhappy, but weather the storms. I believe kids are better in a family, even if the family has problems. I appreciate this is not the view of marriage that my wife holds, and that her standard is much higher. I am interested in a successful family, but feel so hopeless at this point that that ideal is unattainable.

 

I want help and it does not need to be on my terms. I am here to achieve reconciliation, but if that is not possible, then perhaps I can at least achieve healing for myself.

 

I am disrespectful of people I feel are just trying to crush me into submission by force. Attitude change comes from within, not through heavy or sarcastic verbal beatings like the ones I received at the intensive. Joel and Kathy would have gotten a lot more done with me through good and kind arguments delivered lovingly to someone who is already reeling with shock and surprise, instead of their shouting or brow-beating or name-calling. This is why my counselor has advised me so strongly to stay away from this site, since it caused so much emotional injury. I can now return and take on this immaturity with a new perspective that allows me to appreciate the good and toss the bad. Sadly Firewalker, good intentions are never enough to justify abuse. I was treated by Joel and Kathy like a target, a source of future testimonial to their greatness, instead of the way I am sure I would have been treated by Ken Nair and other more experienced or trained counselors. My confidentiality was violated from the word go. However, thanks for the useful perspective that I need to weigh up all feedback and glean good or "fitting" insight.

 

I can face the fact that I need discipline and reproach. I can listen to Ken Nair when he says I need to grow up. I have written many times that my wife is in control of her choices in life. I cannot convince her to return. All I can do is take her suggestion to be back here and try to become what God wants me to be. I chose to return here.

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I appreciate input especially when it is written with gentle wisdom instead of some of the temper tantrums I have read.

 

It is good to hear that you are willing to be teachable and appreciate input done in gentle wisdom. As far as referring posts made in help to you as 'temper tantrums' that does make me wonder if you really are teachable. Here you are blameshifting again. Calling posts written to you in love and with good intention as temper tantrums yet if you read back, your own previous posts contain more temper in them than any helper's. There is a difference between exasperation and losing one's temper. You need to be focused on your own actions and calling your actions for what they are.

 

I do see divorce as permanent. That is the purpose of divorce. I can't fathom using divorce as a tool to lead to reconciliation any more than using a gun as a tool to heal. Anyway, that is my wife's choice. If she chooses to divorce me, I will take that as a sure sign that whatever we had is over.

 

Again, you are seeing divorce through your own eyes and not seeing it through God's eyes. Even in the face of divorce God's heart is for reconciliation. If divorce goes through, God would still desire for you to be reconciled to your wife again but you can not reconcile with your wife w/o working this program and winning her heart back. You do not have divorce for the purpose of reconciliation. Joel and Kathy do not teach a man to divorce his wife for the purpose of reconciliation. They teach a man how to be Christlike. This is what you have. You have the ability to change your heart even in the face of divorce and become the man of God Elisabeth has always needed you to be. I wonder if you do not give 'divorce' way too much power in considering it so final. It appears that the pride in your heart is telling you that if Elisabeth divorces you then that is it and it is time to move on. A humble heart would say that "It does not matter if Elisabeth divorces me! I will still work hard to become Christlike and i will still become the man of God that she needs for me to be! No matter what!" I really would recommend reading the last page of FOrHimForHer's thread and see the progress he has made. Then read the beginning and make your way to that page and see the process he has had to go through. I am sure he would say that even as hard as it has been it's been worth it. And the difference between his wife and your wife is that your wife is willing to work J&K's program. His is not at this point. You have something to work with here but you have to be willing to acknowledge that your attitude towards a divorce at this point is incorrect and not Christlike.

 

so I need to hide my true feelings so that she thinks I am strong and distant and aloof. She told me I had no feelings, so I am acting like I have none, but the fact is that I cry now and never did before.

 

Christ never acted 'distant and aloof.' Even on the cross he was still reaching out to the thief next to him and he was going through the very heart of atrocity. You acting 'strong' unfortunately is not showing Elisabeth anything other than your need to protect yourself and your heart above your need to protect hers.

 

So to summarize I would hope that you would have the humility to address the plank in your own eye before acknowledging the speck in someone else's (Referring to posts meant to be helpful to you as temper tantrums) as well as to acknowledge that your view of the finality of divorce is not Christlike and is not how Christ would operate were He in your place. You can reconcile with Elisabeth. It is possible! You have made a great first step in returning to the forums and participating again. We see this. This is not the only and final step though. It is a 2 year process minimum. Joel and Kathy ask a man to commit to winning his wife's heart back for two years - even in the face of divorce. They ask a woman to be open to reconciliation for two years - even in the face of divorce. That being said, Peter, are you willing to commit to winning Elisabeth's heart back in the next two years? Are you ready to truly jump on board and do whatever it takes to win your wife's heart again. You can do it. We all believe it is possible and yes, it will be a powerful testimony! But it is up to you. I do hope and pray you rise up and take the blessing offered to you. Yes, I called it a blessing. Healing your wife means healing in you as well. You just need to focus on your wife first. I know you can do this.

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If she chooses to divorce me, I will take that as a sure sign that whatever we had is over.

 

Just so you know, Peter...This sounds like a total threat.

 

A real man, a man laying his life down for his wife would continue to do so even after a divorce is final...knowing that it was HIS actions that pushed his wife there in the first place.

 

You are telling your lovely wife that if she proceeds with the divorce, and it becomes final, that you are DONE.

 

That is a threat. Threats don't work on your wife any more. Because while you were "gone" (from the boards, away from her, supposedly giving her the space she needs) your wife became so strong in the Lord. She is truly a different woman, an amazing and wonderful new creation in God. She is AWESOME!

 

You have an AWESOME wife.

 

Trust me when I say that she is worth ANY hardship that you will have to endure to have her...including dying to yourself.

 

Please don't threaten her though...maybe you didn't mean that previous comment as a threat, but as a woman, I can tell you that it is what it sounded like. I don't know if your wife is reading these posts, but if she is, that comment was surely hurtful.

 

Also please try and remember that your wife loves and respects MANY of the helpers on this forum, so when you lash out at them, it doesn't hurt them, it really hurts her. I know you don't want to hurt her anymore...so please don't do that!

 

My prayers will be with you, Peter, and your lovely wife and girls. I pray that God will walk you through this.

 

Take Care,

Bridget

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Peter,

 

Peter,

 

I appreciate input especially when it is written with gentle wisdom instead of some of the temper tantrums I have read

 

You must know that a statement like this is ludicrous. Who is having temper tantrums? I am saying this with the utmost humor, Peter..but it seems YOU are the one who has tempr tantrums down to a fine art.

 

Just because a man may not show his rage does not mean it is not seething, always there underneath the surface. It reminds me of the story of the little boy who would not behave in Church. His father told him to sit down and stay still...well, of course he refused. FInally, the father gave him a stern look and the little boy sat down...with the next breath he looked at his father and said, "I may be sitting down on the outside but on the inside I am still standing up!!"

 

The attitude of your heart is just as important as what you present on the outside.

 

The forum is not some bantering session. It is plainly to give you feedback. Any "feeling" that may surface for you are as Firewalker, said, to get you to ask yourself eye opening questions. That is what humility is. It is seeing yourself in light of God's holiness and understanding you have fallen short. It is also accepting Christ's gift of of righteousness to cleanse it.

 

Truthfully, for me, people get so caught up in psycho-babble that they miss God's heart. They search for reasons why they do this and that but never really get to the core problem. They hold onto to their past and their pain and wear it like a badge of honor. Our behavior, irregardless of where it has originated is not beyond the power of God. Most of the consequences we face in this life are from wrong and sinful choices.

 

It is good to understand ourselves and see what we need to change...there may even be a comfort in understanding why we do what we do...but ..those revelations are never meant for us to wallow in. Instead, we begin to apply God's truth and His Word like a balm of healing over them. There is a part where we must BELIEVE God. A time when we fight our sinful natures with weapons that are not carnal. Paul said, that he did not go around preaching with eloquence and high sounding platitudes...to wow his hearers at how learned he was...NO...he preached Christ and Him crucified. That the power of God was in demonstration and actions.

 

I pray you will relax and take a deep breath. Your success will be measured by how much of your heart belongs to Christ. It is guaged by how deep is the level of your committment to His commands. Jesus said, "If you love Me...obey Me." 1 John 3:16 tells us what love looks like...a picture of how God demonstrated its truth...

 

"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers."

 

Lay your life down for your bride and you will be pleasantly surprised at how much healing comes to you from this one decision.

 

PIH

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Attacking people who are trying to HELP you is nothing but more proof that you are NOT teachable!!

 

You attack people as "anonymous", but then attack Kathy, who is NOT anonymous! We were also at your Intensive. Your intentions were clear then, and your arrogance is still very clear now.

 

Kathy is correct. Read her post again. And stop throwing flaming arrows at people who are trying to help. If you were to humble yourself enough to listen to what people are trying to say, you might actually learn something. But then, that would require that you decide to be teachable, not just claim to be...

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Peter, you said,

 

Abigail, you are awesome.

 

Well, thank you. (And ding, ding, ding, you got the right answer.....with the overlay of a tinge of Gertrude Stein thrown in.)

 

But Peter, I am not nearly as awesome as your wife, whom God gave to you, specifically, as the only person on this earth with whom you were supposed to listen to so that you could be healed from the wounds that your family or origin and/or others in your early path inflicted upon you. In addition, you are suffering the consequences from your own choices due to immature / wounded / self-centered / self-protective character.

 

I'm sure I've said this before, but I will say it again: God will restore all that the locusts have eaten away.

 

BUT there are major lag times involved when a man has chosen himself over God and His ways for a while.

 

Can you weather the lag times? I pray so.

 

God delays your gratification on purpose, for His perfect purposes.

 

The path to restoration is paved with humility and obedience to His ways.

 

Again, resist the temptation to implode into the old Peter and react to the negative self mirroring objects.

 

I am also praying that you will no longer see people as negative self-mirrors, but as children of God who truly are trying to help you.

 

Just as God honors us for our leap of faith believing Him, you will just have to have a leap of faith about that....the people here truly, truly are just trying to help you....as remote as that "feels" to you right now.

 

You know daRned well Peter, that nice did not get through to you in the past. If nice had gotten through to help you change, then you would not be in this position now.

 

But you are here again now. You are that much more infilled now so that you can take the honest correction like a man. I pray that you let us help you.

 

I will continue to write to you if you do, indeed, listen. That which I have written to others applies to you too. I have to hop off now to go to my daughter's soccer game, but you can go into member list and read my posts to others in the mean time.

 

Bless you Peter, for being sincere and transparent AND teachable. I will just have a leap of faith about that....and your actual deeds will be the evidence....for words can lie, but actions can not.

 

Love and truth, peace and forgiveness,

Abigail

 

PS: Research for a great quote by John McArthur: Paraphrased: Truth without love is brutality, but love without truth is hypocrisy....it has no character at all.

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But this is too much about me. I am expressing the old attitude. I can recognize this. I want help. I am sinful and broken, a bad husband in every way. I am here to die. I love my wife and want the best for her, whether she divorces me or not.

Thank you for this admission and for re-setting your intentions.

 

When you give yourself permission to go back and express the same old resentment and anger over your wife's choice to leave you, you then are closed to the understanding of your own behavior. You need to strongly connect with your sinful, disfunctional behavior and choices and the consequences of such behavior. I don't think you realize how often you are still stuck in blaming your wife in the re-telling of events. That, my friend is a demonstration of your not connecting the dots of your behavior......consequences.

 

Commit to stepping away from the blame game and the pity party about all you have lost and walk in understanding of your own lack of spirituality and humility before the Lord and how that destroyed your marriage.

 

When you do this, then your heart becomes fertile soil for good seed.

You want to see fruit in your life?

Pull up the weeds of selfishness that choke your heart.

Dig out the boulders of faulty thinking and beliefs that have gotten you in this place in your life.

Prepare your ground for planting and expect the seeds.

Water with a true understanding of grace.

Trust the gardener, the vinekeeper, the Lord God almighty for the increase.

 

Sorry if the metaphor is unwelcome. I just like piggybacking off of our Lord's pictures of life. He has given us so many pictures of what a welcoming/teachable life really looks like.

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Peter, you said:

 

But this is too much about me. I am expressing the old attitude. I can recognize this.

 

That is good that you recognize this. I understand that you are giving background....and am hoping that you further understand that your subtle blame-shifting, like (paraphrasing), "It was Elisabeth's fault that I was not meeting her needs because she never expressed her needs," is exactly that - blame shifting.

 

Peter, do you believe in Ephesians 5:25 and 1 Peter 3:7 ?

 

If so, then those are the scriptures that will get you through the next phase of your transformation. You just have to have a leap of faith that you, as the man with the XY chromosomes, and all the good gifties that go along with that, as given by God Himself, are the initiator....and that your wife, as God made women, in His perfect way, is the responder. (children of both genders are responders also.)

 

That which you cite above is the result of that which you initiated.....with some major lag times involved.

 

Peter, you are going to have to lose your life in order to gain it. God says so, not me. You are going to have to let go of your terms. This can not be about what you think should be fair.

 

I have a friend in the entertainment business who was told exactly what your friends have told you....but praise God....God reconnected us after 25 years, and through my advice, which I learned here, which is the opposite of that which his friends told him, he is winning his wife's heart back.

 

Have you read any of my other posts? You may not think they apply to you, but they do.

 

Lova and truth, peace and forgiveness,

Abigail

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Just want to jump in for a minute:

 

Peter, my question to you, or any man who is about to have to WORK for the relationship to be considered again is: do you love your wife? are you willing to invest in this relationship the same amount of time that you have spent ignoring your wife's needs...and showing her that even without one positive response from her, that you willl be consistent in loving her?

 

With that said, I do not believe that we as wives should punish our husbands or not give them positive responses when they are indeed putting forth the effort. I ask that of you because there are several men on here that are wrestling with the end of the marriage and a wife that has finally completely turned away.

 

No one here thinks your wife is perfect. We are ALL sinners saved by Grace. That applies to each and every one of us. No one is exempt from the sinner title.

 

If you will put your wife's actions, hurts, fears, desires, and goals in proper perspective: if she didn't believe marriage was for life and wanted a two parent home for her children, she would have left you a long time ago!! You aren't going to win her back with statements of God's desire for marriage. Most of us women here know that...and that's why we stayed regardless of how bad it got.

 

I hear you about your job and it's requirements. You know I sit and look at relationships in a variety of different situations and ponder what makes some of them work in such a finely tune way and others not. Because even take Billy Graham for instance...how much was he away from his family and children...winning souls for Christ...and yet had to establish and maintain Godly provision of relationship with his family. (I'm sure he failed at times...just giving this as an example.)

 

the answer really seems to be that even with highly demanding jobs...husbands then make special time with their wives an equal priority. And this gets lost in the shuffle.

 

A wife truly desires to see her husband happy and fulfilled. It isn't a trade off thing...but it has to work like the motor in a car. Everything in sync.

 

Right now, she does not feel safe with you emotionally and it's not going to change until the way you respond to her does. She does not want to be sucked back in only to have the rug pulled out from under her again.

 

I say kudos to you for coming bacl here. I think you've been given sound direction but i know it's been hard for you. Keep coming here. It will be good for you and your relationship.

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I can handle emotional injury after what my wife has done to me

 

OMG You've GOT to be kidding?? You come back here and are STILL blaming your wife, and crying, "Poor Me"????

 

Let your wife go, Peter. Move on without her. Set her free. Stop the harassment. In other words, "STOP ABUSING YOUR WIFE"

 

She left because YOU were killing her, Peter. You should be on your knees begging for mercy, but instead, you come back here wasting everyone's time.

 

God, please take these blinders off this man's eyes.

 

Kay

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PS: I stand by that which I said before: I will believe that you are sincere and teachable....but it is your actions that will prove me right or wrong, for words can lie, but actions can not.

 

The real truth is the real truth is the real truth is the real truth.

 

I pray for your growth today, Peter.....as defined by God....for a man who is a husband and father....all for His glory.

 

God will restore all....but you have to do it His way.

 

Abigail

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Welcome back, Peter.

 

Glad that you realize that the help we offer is a combination of good things that have been recycled from others.

 

That means that we are teachable.

 

We learned.

 

That is how you learned to be a doctor.

 

You went to college and learned from others.

 

We do have some unique things that are "us" initiated - that are being picked up by others - but even those things, we have found, were "out there" by others also.

 

Why?

 

Because truth is truth.

 

We thought we were the FIRST to find that "hupotasso" (submit) was not even in the greek text for Ephesians 5:22.

 

A couple years later, we have discovered other greek theologians who had discovered this nugget and it is buried in their 600 page books.

 

That one discovery changed our entire world. We found it on our own and WERE a bit concerned that we were the "only" people on the planet who God had shown this to... and were THANKFUL to find others who had discovered this before we did.

 

How about Kephale meaning "source of life and strength."

 

A greek theologian pointed this out. When we saw it, all of the lights and bells and whistles went off. We realized that our ENTIRE first book and everything that we were intending to include in book two were SIMPLY TEACHING couples about "Kephale" - headship - source of life and strength. The greek theologian gave us the bone to hang the flesh that we were living on - and that bone was that "head" - (Kephale) did not mean authority. It mean "source of life and strength".

 

We had ALREADY been saying for years that "head" did not mean "authority" - and when people said, "well what does it mean then?" - we simply said, "we don't know what it does mean and we do not care. We do know what it does NOT mean - it does NOT mean that the man is the boss with the final decision making authority in the marriage relationship and in the home. TEAMSHIP is correct. Someday we will know what the word "Kephale" or headship means. Until then, we ignore it!

 

That day came when we came across the correct definitions by the greek theologian.

 

Again, everything came together.. bam, bam, bam, bam, bam... and everything was wrapped up with a bow!

 

Later, we discovered that a medical doctor researched 1000 happy marriages - and he discovered that every couple had two things in common in HAPPY marriages:

 

1. A wife looked to her husband as a refuge and source of strength. (Source of life and strength)

 

2. Men did not shy away from their wife's need for closeness, he was right there, by her side, sharing in her emotional needs. (bonding).

 

Again - truth is truth - whether it is discovered in the Bible or by an MD who is researching happy couples!

 

What we have discovered about marriage works for ever couple who works it - and it is TRUTH.

 

A wise man drops his pride and learns.

 

A fool argues and sticks to his guns.

 

We pray that you have decided to be a wise man.

 

We are right. You are wrong. (about marriage).

 

When you decide that you want to learn and realize that anything you believe about marriage that is contrary to what we are trying to teach you - when you realize you are wrong - and therefore give up what you so fondly believe and allow yourself to LEARN what we know... then YOU TOO will end up a happy, healthy, whole man with a happy, healthy, whole wife and marriage.

 

By the way, if you ever meet someone who claims to have come up with knowledge that NO ONE ELSE understands, and that NO ONE else has ever discovered before.. then be VERY concerned. No one is an "island" - and if what they are saying is TRUTH - then it is going to be discovered by others in the past, present or future.

 

As for our delivery - now THAT is uniquely Joel and Kathy and THAT ain't gonna change. We may mellow as we age - but hopefully not. It is our delivery that gets guys like YOU to change. A man like you will not change unless he is confronted, challenged and BEAT. So, give it up. You are going to lose this fight or you are going to lose your family.

 

Win the fight of protecting your beliefs and pride and protecting who you are (which has been horrid and needs to COMPLETELY change) - and you lose your wife and children.

 

Get "beat" in this process, and CHANGE - and you win your wife and family... but only if you really change. Your wife is way too sharp. She can smell the old Peter a mile away. This is going to have to be a real change.

 

Have you read "Good husband, Great Marriage" yet, by Robert Alter? You need to. That is where I recycled the idea of "I have to 'beat' you (in the sense of we have to win and you have to 'lose' in order for you to ever change.) We had already been doing this with men for a few years - as everyone knowns... BEFORE ever reading it in Robert's book. Robert has been a full time, non-Christian, Jewish marriage therapist for 35 years. His book is parallel to ours... and he formulated words to explain to us what we had already been doing with men... which is the same thing he has been doing with men.

 

Our personality and delivery is PERFECT for what we have to do to create MEN out of babies. Thank God that we are not that "professional" counselor who "listens" to people's problems and makes "suggestions" for twenty years at $200 an hour.

 

We are going to chew you up and spit you out as a new, quality, loving man and husband - or you are going to resist the process and end up old and lonely.

 

Yes, we are proud of you for biting the bullet and starting to re-engage. There is hope for you yet.

 

signing off as

 

"Proud to be recycling"

 

What works for us will work for you.

 

I hope you are ready to recycle! The water is REALLY, REALLY good over here.

 

Hey, we have made love 3 times in the last three days.

 

Do I regret dying to myself? No way!

 

We leave on a cruise in the morning for four days of rest with my gorgeous bride.

 

Do I regret dying to myself? No way!

 

Our children are close to our heart and cooperative in every way.

 

Do I regret dying to myself? No way!

 

This is a good life, Peter. The best life. A wonderful life.

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Wow, flattered to see my comments made the front page! I guess criticism is pretty bad for business. Too bad someone felt the need to defend their position instead of accepting constructive criticism. The little "na-na-na" at the end was especially mature. Ironic indeed that I spoke to my wife this afternoon and she told me she has abandoned this ministry, so perhaps being chewed up and spit out by Joel and Kathy is not going to be the only method to healing for us after all...

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Peter, you said,

 

Wow, flattered to see my....

 

Yes, this is something that is very important to certain personality types - flattery. Peter, your sarcasm is the opposite of sincerity.

 

Peter, Joel was not na na na na-ing you at all. He was trying on some powers of persuasion to see if it would resonate with you. It did not. No problem. (It would be a good idea to check your perception filters.)

 

It is your wife's prerogative to utilize the basically free help in this ministry or not. If she no longer needs or wants this help, that's great and fine. This is a very free and open "business" model. People can come and go as they please.

 

And this is not a business, btw. It is needed oxygen for many, and a life line for some.

 

Many men, however, do not appreciate that they are no longer able to twist, turn, and manipulate here. They do not like having their facades exposed.

 

Many people hated Jesus too.

 

Some men (and women) decide to stop being immature and to instead, grow up and out of their self-viewpoints. Many of the success stories simply get healed without follow up posting on the forum, so there is a skewed snapshot here.

 

No matter. God knows the real truth of everything. I know that He is pleased with the help offered here.

 

Blessings,

Abigail

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Kathy is speaking to your wife right now.

 

She is telling Kathy that she just has no hope for you to change and apparently does not want to go through the up and down, up and down roller-coaster anymore.

 

We tried to get you to cooperate Peter. You have finally broken your wife.

 

Congratulations.

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Peter,

 

I have had the priveledge of knowing your wife...she is such a wonderful lady.

 

She is much, much too good for you.

 

Men like you disgust me. You have the best thing in the world right in front of you...beauty, intelligence, passion, love...she is everything you could have ever wanted all rolled up into one person.

 

And you manipulate her and abuse her every single chance you get.

 

Even now, your presence on this board is a thinly veiled attempt at hurting her even further, since you have had absolutely NO heart change at all since you left the first time! Making tongue in cheeck remarks insulting the people whom your wife has trusted and befriended...and insulting the very responsibility and honor that God himself has given you...you must be the most unfortunate soul that has ever graced this board.

 

I feel very sorry for you that you can't see how easy it is to just surrender it all. But, alas...you won't see. You are here because you think if you just show up and post, even though you are angry and bitter in your posts, your wife will take you back...because deep inside you believe that she is just dying without you...miserable and alone. You believe that she will never do better than you...she'll never find a man like you. Well, I'm so glad to say that she WILL NEVER FIND A MAN LIKE YOU. That is for sure!

 

And, she doesn't need to. She has the love and guidance of her Heavenly Father. He will be her new husband. He loves her in ways that you never could. He will stand in the gap for you, and do YOUR job, because you can't be bothered to stop looking at YOURSELF in the mirror in admiration to be humble and fix your marriage.

 

I can TOTALLY understand why she is finished with you, and why she never wants the ups and downs again with you. I can totally understand why she asks you to wait in the car when you pick up the children. Why do you think she would want you around? Because you are so wonderful? What have YOU done to bless your wife? Hmmmm? Make fun of this ministry? Make fun of doctrines that we (and she) believe come out of the Bible from God himself? Speak poorly of people that she has come to respect? I'm sure there are things you have NOT admitted to, like you are probably calling her and leaving badgering messages on her phone, and sending her self justifying e mails. I'm sure you have even solicited the unwilling and unknowing help of your innocent children.

 

Your wife is a wonderful woman of God, and I personally stand behind her choice to have NOTHING to do with you. You are NOT of God. Absolutely NOT. You may say that you are, and that you are a believer, but you are nothing but a deceiver. The truth of your relationship with God is in your fruits...and as I can see, you bear no fruit. You spout off all of your professional accomplishments that you say you have done in God's name, but you haven't. You didn't do any of those things with love. You did them to gratify your own ego. You did not do them for God. God says that without love, you have nothing.

 

Well, here you have it.

You

Have

Nothing.

 

I pray that God works in your life to make you see what kind of person you have really been. I pray now that God reveals to us all that which is hidden in darkness. I pray most of all that God reveals to YOU that which you have not, up to this point, been able to see.

 

Peter, you have so much to offer the kingdom of God. It is my prayer that you are able to some day turn around and become the man God wants you to be. Unfortunately for you, your wife no longer wants to be a long for the ride. She has every right to give up on you.

 

Bridget

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