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Hope is a little hurt this evening. She just mentioned to me before heading out to a church function that when initiating intimacy I am initiating with things that get me going through the day/evening and not her. We had a discussion this morning about how hard is for me to stop thinking about me and start thinking about her. It is such a simple concept that works. Yet so hard for me coming from such pride and selfishness. I can feel the change growing inside me and happening without me thinking about it at times. But other times, most in fact, I have to try hard to stop the "I/me" and replace it with "you". I love where things are headed with these changes but am praying for a faster death to myself. I feel like I can get focused on "areas" of the marriage to die to, and then the other areas I mess up on. Then turn to go after dying to those other areas, and the first area of focus begins to struggle. I want to die to my whole self and live for my wife in all ways and all things. I want to bring back that happy spirit she had when I first met her. I want to see her face glow with happiness. This is obviously an area that needs work on my part. Any suggestions?

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Some great quotes by Joel.



Joel said:


"At the bottom of a woman's heart is a deep need to be loved...At the bottom of a man's heart is his need to control...he is angry because he does not want to lay his life down for a woman...he does not want to give up his control."



Joel wrote:


It is that self-focus that has to die, being replaced by focusing on HOPE.


Don't focus on dying to self-focus. Focus on HOPE and the dying to self-focus dies a natural death.



So you put your BEST thoughts and BEST energies into HOPE. Not into ministry. Not into yourself. Your BEST and FIRST thoughts and energies go to her. When you make that shift, she will feel it. She will know it. And that is when she will begin to relax.


Hope this helps :D



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631 put this in the men's private section - but it was not a "vent" - it is something that can be included here. This is not a complaint by a baby - this is just a hubby asking for help in understanding.


Guys, I feel like I'm getting frustrated, which I know is wrong. Every time I turn around I feel as though I've done something wrong. It keeps Hope in a state of hurt. I know I deserve it and hate these feelings of frustration. It's all selfishness and not putting Hopes feelings ahead of mine. I know things should be going better, and it all starts with me. Been sleeping on the couch 2 of the past 3 nights and it appears I am not "getting it". I keep missing the real point at what is really going on in her heart. I feel like in a way we are under attack from the devil because we are actively sharing this ministry with our church and many others. But then again it is me that is the real problem and missing the boat. I also never ask for help until things are pretty bad and this frustrates Hope. When we are on the calls together it makes her upset because I agree with the helpers and say I want to make that change and be that man, but then fall short. Please help me with any words of wisdom or advice. It just seems like leading up to the intensive and during the intensive things were so great. Better than ever. And now we both want to get back to that spot but I am not making it happen.



Hi 631 and hope,


It is very common for it to take days sometimes for a husband to understand what a wife is feeling and what the issue really is.


Remember the homeschooling story?


Normally a guy apologizes for something but it is not the "thing" that the wife is feeling.. it is not the "thing" that she needs him to understand and apologize for.


As long as a wife will keep explaining and a husband will keep listening, then at some point, normally a couple or few days - he will suddenly "get it".


The ONLY thing that stops this process is if a husband won't take time to listen or if his wife clams up and stops trying to explain it to him.


So keep speaking Hope and keep listening 631. You will get there.


Our next book is going to be titled "My Marriage is my Happy Place"


(at least that is what we think it will be titled right now)


Get there.. get to that happy place and enjoy it to its fullness. These "dips" happen... and they will get less frequent and less intensity..


so 631.. here is your instruction: Listen, listen, listen.


Hope, here is your instruction: Talk, talk, talk.

Explain it 20 different ways until he understands.


Remember, we guys can be thick at times. Sometimes it SEEMS that a guy gets temporarily retarded when it comes to understanding what his wife is saying. There are scientific reasons for this with the two sides of the brain etcetera.. but that does not matter. All that matters is that a guy DOES get smart over time... as long as:


1. He does not quit listening




2. She does not quit speaking.


Your husband is working on his PhD in husbandry and you are his teacher, Hope. Don't give up. Keep teaching.

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Hope said I have been doing a fairly good job in most areas of our marriage and she is feeling that her emotional needs are being met for the most part. The area I continue to struggle tremendously in is initiating intimacy (love making). I keep going about it in the wrong way. When I think I am being more romantic or "setting the mood" with candles, the way I am going about it is still wrong. Hope explained she isn't quite sure what she needs from me in this way or exactly how I should go about it, but that I should be asking for help and reviewing resources to figure it out. She shared a little more with me last night about what she'd like after I messed up the initiation process, but then I screwed up by not trying again later. Really I need help. I looked over Robert Irwin's free E-book that Joel recommended to everyone and didn't really find the tips or ideas I need. He has other resources available, has anyone read them that would recommend them? What other resources can anyone recommend for me to find what will really make things work for her. I dropped the ball on this for not initiating enough to begin with, fearing rejection for not initiating correctly, and not looking for help to fix it. This has put Hope in a place where she is really hurting and doesn't want to deal with it any more. Please help! We are almost on our way to an OHM, but this is really putting the brakes on.

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I personally didn't find Irwin too inspiring either.


THe "simply romantic nights" ideas offered by Family Life are pretty neat from a "romantic" standpoint.


Mostly I find that I like to be involved with the decision making, but I like him to at LEAST initiate any brainstorming session with HIS IDEAS presented first. What I needed to know first was that he was not only doing this to bless ME, but also because HE wanted ME in that way. HIS DESIRE FOR INTIMACY WITH ME is what blessed me most. His initiative is what drives this blessing home to my heart. His need for me to partner with him in creating a great experience was also important, even though it was of secondary importance.


So YOU come up with the ideas, then you sit down with Hope and offer your thoughts. Then when you agree on a plan, YOU follow thru by pursuing it and creating a fantastic evening for you both. Later when she is more healed, she can initiate an occasional night of fun too.


I also like "101 nights of great sex", but it is not a Christian resource, so you need to be choosey on this one. It comes with "sealed" pages for husbands and wives to open and create a great evening. "Simply romantic nights" does the same, only its more romance focused rather than sex focused.

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Thanks lovingjesus,


I purchased the book "Sheet Music" and have found it to be very good. I will report more but both Hope and I see it is an excellent resource. Any body else have suggestions?



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631 hope this speaks to your heart and gets deep within

your spirit.. :D


Oh my it is 5 am and this is all pouring out of me... PLease excuse any typo's

This morning as I was emailing a friend this began pouring into my mind and spirit.


Perhaps it will make you laugh, but I truly believe it is a message from God to those husband's that choose not to love us and to NOT die to themselves. They think it is all our fault and if we just change all would be solved........


I was just thinking , praying and asking God what would HE say to these husbands and this is what filled my spirit and I began to write........


You know it just boggles my mind when these men choose not to love us.


This is the conversation the Lord gave me that HE would have with each husband that has chosen not to love his wife and has just " given up and thrown in the towel." And what GOD would say to each of us HIS daughter's.


Wonder how our husband's would feel if the Lord came down and sat in their easy chair and said,

The coversation begins..........

Well, I decided you needed to see me . I have been calling you, but you haven't been answering. So I thought I better come and talk to you in person.


And your poor wife has been calling me everyday. She says she can't sleep or eat and she has no energy and can't go on much longer feeling like this..


" You know ______ fill in your husband's name:

I have decided you are just not worth my effort to love you anymore. It's just more than I can do. You are just so needy and always asking me for something and some of you aren't even talking to me anymore. You are never happy with what I give you. You constantly whine and complain when I ask you to do the slightest thing." I have other people who appreciate me and I just can't devote my life to meeting your needs. So I am leaving you. All I asked you to do was love your wife like I love you. How would you feel if I said to you, " Son I just don't want to work on our relationship anymore. I really don't want to hear from you.... So could you just leave me alone?


You're just to needy. I hear that is what many of you husbands are saying to your wives." Hmmm, this was not my plan for you son or my daughter.


I use to find it easy to love you. Well, I loved you no matter what you did. And I always forgave you when you asked. I created your wife to be a forgiver too.



I asked each of you to take up a cross and take that same walk that I did for you and to die to yourself for your wife as I died for you. I asked you to love her as much as I love her.

I remember my walk to the cross. It was not an easy walk. I remember the pain. I even asked my Father if He could just call the whole thing off. But I knew if I was going to love you unconditionally and take away all your sins I really didn't have a choice, I just had to do it!!!!


PLEASE Jusdewit ....Hmmmmm Catchy name don't you think??


Yet, you say you can't do this to honor your wife and I by dying to yourself?



Now ( fill in husband's name ) how does that make you feel to hear that from me?....

You say you want me to forgive you? You say that makes you feel scared that I won't be in your life anymore? You're upset that I said I just don't know if I can be here for you and continue to love you unconditionally??


Hmm, that's how your wife told me you make her feel.....She tells me what I have said to you are the same things you are saying to her.


Perhaps I need to explain a few things to you son and see if we can't get things straightened out with all 3 of us. My daughter, you and I.


It seems you need to adjust your attitude and listen to your own heart. Because I hear your heart and it is telling me you want to love your wife.

You are just having some trouble getting past your selfishness, pride and ego and I believe you need to understand how your wife is feeling.


Let me begin by telling you......


I gave you one of my finest gifts when I gave you ( fill in wife's name ______) and you are so ungrateful and so unappreciative. You are spoiled and self centered.


I am disappointed in you because I gave you everything you needed to have a happy life and make your wife a happy wife. as the saying goes: Happy wife , Happy Life ( Where do you think Joel n Kathy got that phrase? )


Now I understand you have decided to ignore everything I taught you and decided you are smarter than I am and would rather do this your way???? Not your best decision son.


I gave DR. Phil a saying too,






That badly huh? I hear trying your way has made both you n ( fill in wife's name ) pretty miserable. And my daughter's Birthday is in 4 days. Son you best get busy getting things straightened out. Glad I came now so we can chat.

Your wife told me you had been planning something "special". she was so excited. I know you don't want to disappoint her. Do you?


Do you have that OHM I designed for you and your bride yet?


Did I hear you say ,"NO"... Hmm I was afraid that's what you said.


Your wife tells me she has been really hurting lately and quite sad. Oh, she also mentioned she has been crying herself to sleep is, when she can sleep. And what's this I hear that she is feeling sick all the time? She can't eat , she can't sleep, she doesn't feel well??? That really concerns me son.

Can't have my girls feeling this way!!!


Son what are you doing to my daughter??????


I asked her what the problem is and she just began to cry and said, "Pappa God, I can't even talk to my husband. He just won't hear my heart and I feel so scared all the time. She says she doesn't feel safe...?"


Then very slowly she began to tell me everything in her heart. We chatted for quite some time. In fact, she brought some other wives with her and they are all telling me much the same stories ..OH MY GOODNESS SON!!!!!

What in Heaven's name have you and the other husbands done to my daughters to make them so sad and unhappy?


Son what has made fill in_wife's name_____ so afraid to share her heart with you?


She tells me:

When I try to share my heart with him,

" He doesn't listen to my heart. He says hurtful things to me and no matter what I do for him , it is never enough Father. He doesn't spend time with me. It seems I can't do anything right. He yells and gets angry at the littlest thing I say. He doesn't appreciate me.

He hasn't kissed me or told me he loves me in a week. I miss his smiles and the twinkle in his eyes.

He says I am too needy. " I have so many other sisters who I love and their husbands are telling them the same things.


We need your help Father.


Can you PLEASE explain to my husband and the others how I and the other wives feel Father? I don't know what to do. All we asked all our husbands to do was love us unconditionally

like you do. I asked him to kiss and hug me every day and to smile at me so I know he is thinking about me. The other wives need the same things too.

He tells me, " All our problems are your fault" IF you would just do things my way, " Well everything would be just great." A lot of husbands are saying this to their wive's.


One day my hubby says he loves me and then sometimes just the next day, he tells me, "Leave me alone" and disconnects from me ." Pappa God I am so tired and so frustrated. So are the other wives."


"Son I told her I understood and I would talk to you and the other husbands. You see your wife and the others need you husbands to listen and validate their feelings. This will help heal their hearts and when you heal your wives hearts then your hearts will be healed too.


Your wife tells me she knows she has issues, but realizes she can't deal with her issues until you go first and heal her heart. I told her once you do that her issues will fade away. Any that don't , well we will deal with that if and when we need to... But Son if you do your part, I can guarantee you fill in wive's name_________ will be a happy healed loved wife. And you will find yourself a happy healed loved husband. ALL will be well........YOU WILL HAVE AN OHM...


Son, I need to explain some things to you .

Might as well get comfortable

We are going to be here until you "GET IT".



You don't understand I gave your wife all the love you would ever need in your life as a man to bless you with.

But, I decided since I created you to be much stronger than your wife I decided you should be the first one in the marriage to initiate all the things your wife needs so she could in return bless you. I taught her to "respond" to you.


So whatever you give__________( fill in wife's name ) , she can only give you what you give her and I taught her to multiply it many times ( I counted on you giving her much love and many blessings and wanted you to get all that back, that's just the way I made marriage to work. )


But unfortunately for you if you give her unhappiness and death that is what she will multiple and give back. It's my design , not hers.


It wasn't your wife's idea. So please, quite trying to tell her she is controlling you. She is not. She just wants you to show her you love her so she feels safe, secure and loved. She also told me she would LOVE and she needs you to intiate a bunch of hugs, smiles n kisses everyday. I hear you aren't doing to well with those.

I thought you enjoyed kissing and hugging your wife?

I remember you use to enjoy all those things.. What happened son?


She tells me she could really use your help around the house too.

You are BIG N strong like I made you right son? Then I have every confidence in you that you can handle anything she needs you to do.


Doing those things will certainly bring a smile to your face and hers


She tells me you want her to be the stronger one and you will be glad to love her if she loves you first and prove she loves you.... if she is the initiator.


Son, you have it all mixed up...


LISTEN CAREFULLY SON. You might want to take notes.


I know Joel and Kathy and a bunch of others I sent this message to have tried to explain this to you MANY TIMES, but they are all telling me , you just don't think you believe what they are telling you . So guess I am going to have to tell you myself....


I gave your wife_____ ( fill in wife name) a marriage manual in her heart and I designed it just for the two of you so she would know exactly what to do to help you become the great man of God I created you to be. I knew you could not do it alone and you would meet many challenges along the way. Where do you think the saying came from, " It is not good for man to be alone?"


I wasn't just coming up with a catchy saying. I knew the majority of men would never survive on their own.


So I decided to create your wife, just for you. I even planned for you two to meet when you were concieved. That's how I came up with "soul mates". Not bad huh?


I taught her how to help you meet each challenge. I taught her how to bring out the best in you. I taught her how to know what you need and when you need things. I taught her how to be the greatest helpmeet you could ever imagine. I even put in her a special way of knowing when something is wrong or bad for you and when you are in danger since I knew I also created men to be clueless. I'll explain my reason for that when we stand face to face one day... Just trust me on this one son!!


I created you differently so you could always have something to work on. I never wanted you to take your wife for granted. Your wife never takes you for granted. In fact, she actually thanks me everyday for you. Even when she is unhappy with you. She tells me she doesn't want to be right , she just wants to be rightly related to you!!!

I gave DR Phil another catchy saying, " Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Son, have you asked yourself this question lately? If not, I suggest that you do.

You may just find the answers to many of your problems.

I have been listening and it seems to me you want to be right much of the time. This is not helping your situation son.


I knew if I made your wife and you exactly the same there would never be anything you could learn from one another, so I decided to create you to be opposites. That is where my saying came from:



I knew creating you to be different from one another would help each of you to learn how to support and encourage the other in times of need, so you could always learn from one another and could support one another in everything. I didn't want your marriage to become boring. I gave her all the recipes she would need to "satisfy " you. She has all the ingredients she needs. I gave her a desire to bless you....


This is where the vows: Love , honor and cherish were born. I knew if you n your wife would do these 3 things that you would have what you need to meet every need and every challenge in your marriage.


I also thought I better warn you there would be good times and bad times and that the enemy might bring sickness to one of you, so I thought I better cover " in sickness and in health too". I didn't want there to be any doubt from the very beginning on your wedding day that marrying your wife was going to create challenges, but I also put in you my son the need to be challenged because that is how I designed you to grow into the GREAT man of GOD that I created you to be .


Remember the other saying,

" behind every good man there is a GREAT woman"....

Well, I created that saying too.

It is true, just look around at every good man you know... See? I told you there is a GREAT woman behind each good man...

I do know what I am doing. :wink:


I created her heart to give you all the love you would ever need. I made her special just for you, there are none other like her. Each woman I creat is a masterpiece for her husband. A work of art that the husband must take a lifetime to study in order to find each "special " detail that I placed in her. The masterpiece has many many details. In you my son I placed a special gift of being able to see each of those details in a special way.


You must "study " each detail until you are able to see the entire masterpiece. Until you memorize every detail in your wife.


Oh, and you are constantly whining about all the time and energy it takes to make love to your wife. You never whined about this when you first got married. You couldn't wait to see her and ML to your wife and you LOVED it when you stayed up all night loving on each other.


You silly man, I made her a masterpiece so you could savor your wife and have time to take in her beauty and marvel at the "gifts" I placed inside her. She is full of surprises. She has many gifts within and it will take your life time to find and open each one. I did that so you would always have something to look forward to. As I said, she is a beautiful gift wrapped in gold with a beautiful ribbon with many keys tied on the ribbon by me, ABBA, her Father . Inside the box are many gifts. Inside each gift is everything you could ever need or want.


The slower you savor her and enjoy her, the longer she will last. The keys unlock all the other "gifts" that are held within your wife. Each key is different and unlocks "each" gift awaiting you. Use the wrong key and that gift will not unlock. You must be careful because if you try to make the wrong key work it will break off in that lock and you will have destroyed that lock. It will take special repairs to restore that lock and it will take longer to get to that "next" special gift. So you must take your time and be very tender when using each key.


Do you remember how enjoyable it is to look forward to something and take the time to enjoy it? Like a wonderful dessert or your favorite food? That's why I created the saying, "a way to a man's heart is through his stomach." You men would never admit that your favorite food makes you weak in the knees. :lol:


First, you look at the beauty of how ____fill in wife's name is constructed." Think of your wife son while reading this". Remember in my Word when I said , " He who finds a wife finds a good thing?" Well, this is only a portion of what I was talking about.


The next step to savoring.......

Then you allow your nose to s-l-o-w-l-y take in the wonderful aroma of that food, you savor the smell of the it. ( Your wife has a wonderful smell that rises into your nasal passages.) Your mouth is watering just thinking about it. It takes your mind back to the last time you savored this wonderful treat. You remember how it is going to taste and then you think how you want to eat as much of this favorite food as your stomach will allow. This is the appetite I gave you husbands for your wives.


( Sorry if this is :oops: to anyone )


Do you just put a bite of your favorite treat in your mouth and quickly swallow that bite? No, of course not. You take each bite and let it just lay on your tongue and savor each component of the treat. Son, do you "see" each beautful thing about your wife? Remember how you couldn't wait till you got that wonderful treat again??? It should be the same with each gift within your wife.


Well my son, I hope this has given you some things to think about. My conference lines are ringing off the hook, it seems you are not the only husband who needs this little chat. :wink:

Must be something in the air because I have quite a few wives calling me and telling me the things your wife told me......


The enemy is making his last stand trying to destroy ALL marriages. He hears I am coming for all of you very soon. He thinks he is going to win, but that is why he is so nervous, he really knows he's going to be the "BIGGEST LOSER."


What's that? Oh you enjoy my sense of humor!!! That's good because everything in me is in you.

You see I made you in my image. :wink:

So you see, I gave you my power here on Earth the same as I give in Heaven. SO quite lying to yourself and telling yourself you can't do what I have asked you to do. I KNOW YOU CAN DO THIS!!!! I NEVER GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO DO WITHOUT THE POWER TO DO IT!!


So kill your ego and pride and go apologize to your ( fill in wife's name )


Tell her you love her and you want to begin again and this time you will keep every promise you make to her and YOU WILL STOP BEING SO SELFISH AND KILL OFF THE "OLD" things you do that are hurting your wife.



Just take my advice .. For a season makes this about your wife.

Stop worrying about how you feel. Bring your feelings and complaints to me , not ____ ( fill in wife name )

Love her unconditionally like I do you. Forgive her as I forgive you.

And you will get to that OHM!!!!!!!!!!!!


Love her , Honor her, Cherish her.






I promise you if you do all these things, you will have an OHM BEFORE YOU KNOW IT. TRUST ME, I CREATED ALL THIS TO WORK THIS WAY AND IT WILL If you just do what we are all telling you to do...... Do you trust me Son???? I know you do. If you truly love me , You will do this for me and for_______ fill in wife's name.....YOU ALL WILL.


I am here if you would like to chat again.... Next time don't wait so long to call me .......I know how to multitask. unlike the rest of you men.. :wink:

Sorry I didn't give you the gift to multitask , it is better suited to your wives ...


Till next time son ... Know I love you, Now please : GO LOVE YOUR WIFE.


BY the way, I hear you think you are failure. That's just the enemy lying to you again .

Don't believe him , he lies about everything..... .


People only fail when they choose not to believe me and just give up and don't implement my plans for an OHM!!!!!!!


I hope this blesses both husbands and wives. :D






The men who choose NOT to love their wives are giving us this message and DO NOT UNDERSTAND what they are doing .


Oh, in many ways I think they understand they are "giving up.


Don't you wish that we could get these husbands all in a big room and have the Lord come talk to them???? Boy, I know each of we wives would love that. But that's ok, God will have that talk with each of them one day................

AT least each of we wives will be able to look at the Lord and say in all honesty " Lord you know I did EVERYTHING I COULD TO BE A GOOD HELPMEET."



I hope this blesses both husbands and wives.

Feel free to copy n paste if you think it will speak to your hubby and change any part to fit your hubby.


Love n Hugs to all




of Joyce N Don


Wife Found J/K March 2009

listened to both books and DVD'D's

husband "got it"

Been on all mentoring conference calls

attend an intensive weekend ASAP

working toward an OHM!!!

Joyce:-) as in JOYFUL50 on Forum

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Thanks for thinking of me with the post above Joyful50.




Ok, this past Sunday night, I put Hope in a place of deep hurt. I broke a promise to her in regards to love making and not putting her first.


These are some of the ways in which I believe she is feeling (Hope, please add anything else you may be feeling):


- Devalued, unloved, uncherished, unhonored

- Like a "slut", like all the other women I've used in my life

- Like she's been trampled by me in order to make myself look good to her in-laws and people of my church.

- That I am nothing but a fake

- It's all about me (631)


The feeling she has in regards to me being a fake is that none of what I have learned is actually coming from my heart. This from breaking the promise and how I handled things, or didn't handle things, after. I know what to do, or even what should be recommended to others in similar situations, but when it comes down to my own "tough situation", I don't get the job done. I come to her with apologies (or at times not even that) but nothing is truly from the heart. Sometimes I just freeze and don't address her hurt for fear of her reaction


The past few weeks, things have had the appearance of being very good. She was praising me and bragging about me to others. Of course this lifted me up and made me excited about how far we've come. Seeing her happy makes me happy! But after hurting her Sunday night, she said she always felt like something was missing, like there was still an emptiness inside.


I need help getting all this information down into my heart. I thought I was getting there but realize I have a ways to go. How do I make this true heartfelt connection. To understand and feel the hurts that I have caused Hope, past and present. Also how to keep from "freezing" when I need to me in "action". To be continually pushing forward and being proactive and providing the opportunity for healing.


My entire life I have been a fake. Literally. And through almost all our marriage... I don't want to be a fake anymore, but want things to come from the heart. I know I need to pray everyday for what I have learned to move into my heart. But what else can I do? How do I repair this damage?


Please help!

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I have been involved with J&Ks and Ken Nairs ministries for over 2 years and I think you can boil down the main theme of them is living with your wife in an understanding way. When ever you are with your wife you need to ask yourself if you are being with her in an understanding way. When you are frustrated, angry or on edge, asking your self this question will allow to realize if you are focusing on yourself in a selfish way or considering the feelings of you wife. It terms of Christlikeness this can be applied to situations with others as well. It's not easy to shift from focusing on ourselves to that of those closet to us. However it is easy to be for others rather than those close to us. I have been the King of being Johnnie on the spot for others but not for my wife. I am slowly turning the very large ship turn around and start sailing the opposite direction. It takes miles for a large ship to come to a stop let alone turn around and go another direction. Our lives are very much like these ships especially when we have spent over 40 years perfecting our arrested development. The first thing we need to do is stop the ship by stop inflicting the pain on our wives. Once we stop the ship we can start it going the other direction. Unfortunately our wives expect us to be the speed boats we've acted like all of our lives jumping to conclusions and going from calm to angry in less than 60 seconds. So why can't we change our lives as quickly. So they aren't very patient when they may have already been waiting for over 20 years. This is also an opportunity for us to be with them in an understanding way, which brings us back to where we started. I hope this helps.

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question? How are you doing on the 20/20/20 &20 (compliments)? Everyday? Every three days? Any consistency?


This is just what I am "feeling in the spirit" if I may, but the connection with your wife is something that should be building ALL day, EVERY day. If you are not being CONSISTENT in this area ,then Hopes heart is going to be consistently off balance and the connection will be wavering at best.


the basis of this ministry is that MEN learn by doing- thus the 20/20/20 is going to help you build that bond.


You two have been to an intensive, you know this stuff, right?


So, connect with your wife ALL DAY, in whatever way SHE is telling you she needs to. then FOLLOW thru with what you say you will do. Go back to the homework of INITIATING every night for 30 days....


If you never accomplished that, then start your thirty days tonight. Initiate, every night, and make it all about HER. DON'T WORRY about yourself at all. Make it all about her. lay down your wants, your desires, your "needs"- and make your love life all about her. It will turn out WONDERFUL in the end.


EVERY NIGHT. YOU can do it!

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OK, I am making a point to get back on the forums and post regularly. To post about how things are going and what I am reading or learning while doing my homework.


I am going to lay this out in a list format to describe the feelings Hope has shared with me to better describe our situation. Hope, please add or edit anything I miss the mark on here. I want to provide the best detail I can, not only to help everyone here on the forums understand where we are at, but also for me to reread and absorb your feelings.



Hope is feeling:


- As though she is dying inside

- Like she did 3 years ago when my porn addition first came out

- Emotionally abused, worse than physical

- Neglected sexually and emotionally

- That she hates sexual intimacy

- Unattractive

- Unloved

- Uncherished

- Undesired

- That she is not worth fighting for



She mentioned that I:


- Avoid conflict

- Am a fake, I have only evolved my fakeness so that I can be more abusive

- Reject her over and over in regards to love making

- Never listen to what she has told me she doesn't like sexually

- Don't think of new ways to please her sexually

- Am heartless

- Have no feelings or emotions

- Am a responder in regards to flirting

- Am not attracted to her

- Am not living with her in an understanding way

- Am refusing to follow God's commands for marriage

- Am not a man of integrity.

- Am selfish

- Am impatient

- Can call others on their mistreatment but don't recognize or admit my own faults


I have read and reread many of the previous posts and they all apply. I think the biggest area I am struggling with is getting what I have learned to soak down deep into my heart. To no longer be only skin deep. When I read Ken Nairs books, Great Husband: Great Marriage, and JK, I get what they are saying and I want to be that husband for Hope. I know Joel mentioned not to focus on dying to my self, but rather just keep my focus on Hope. I find myself tongue tied or frozen when conflict comes up, not like the silent treatment I did before, but that I worry or focus too much on the words to say. That is selfishness.


Looking for more help here in learning to truly make the heart change needed to love my wife.

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Thanks for the link LT. I read through it and it makes a lot of sense to me.


It talking with Hope more, I am gaining a better understanding. There are a list of things that I am not doing.


Initiating in ways that she needs to feel loved

Flirting in a proactive/healthy way

Actively pursuing

Being a confident initiator

When she's feeling hurt, I back off on the frequency of my calls/texts from work


I think I have been a pretty good Butler...

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Hi, I have some questions and looking for some expert opinions.


In speaking with Hope last night, she mentioned there are some things she'd like me to address. One is that several years ago my dad was very rude to her about something. I did nothing to protect her. This has been a source of hurt ever since. Should I approach my dad about this incident? If so how should I do it? I want to bring healing to Hope in this area.


I am also working on protecting my family, specifically my kids, from my brother and dad. They show no patience and are quite short with them. I have been much more aware and prepared to say something when they do it, but I am not always there at the time. We want our kids to love my brother and dad but that won't happen with their attitude. My dad has a lot of fun playing with my 2 boys but is harsher with my very energetic daughter. She is soooo loving and would just adore him if he softened up some. Any recommendations on how to handle this? Do I confront them now before something comes up, or just wait until it happens and address it then?


I plan to apologize to my father-in-law about how I have treated his daughter the majority of our marriage. This is something I have no issues with doing, but just as the passive guy goes, I haven't done it yet. This is important to Hope, and I am going to get it done. Any advice on what should be said or covered would be great. I figure something like, I need to apologize to you Dad, about the way I have hurt your daughter throughout our marriage. You never really saw it, but I have severely hurt and damaged her. I portrayed myself to me something that I wasn't. I tricked her into marrying me, tricked all of you into thinking I was this great man of God, when the entire time I was emotionally abusing her in so many ways. I was not walking a Christian walk. I have not been the Christ like husband God called me to be. I have not lived with her in an understanding way. I have not loved, honored, cherished, or protected her. For that, I want to apologize and ask you for your forgiveness. I know you love Hope so much. As a dad myself, it would kill me to find out that a man treated my daughter the way that I treated yours. I am truly sorry and hope you can forgive me.


Pertaining to my marriage right now, there is still a great deal of hurt I need to be doing a better job of bringing healing. Hope really needs flirting, physical attention and reassurance from me. She did share with me more about what she likes regarding love making. She has told me many things before, but I have a record of never listening. I feel good about what she has shared and it helps with my confidence. I just need to keep up the daily pursuit and initiating with flirting and follow through. I need to work on my flirting A LOT. I have never flirted with her and my ways are childish. Even when I think about how to do it, or how to express it in a text message/email, it still comes out childish. I am praying for heart felt guidance from the Lord in regards to this area. Honestly, I think the lack of follow through after I get home has resulted in my comments meaning nothing, so the seriousness of my words is disregarded. I understand this and need to follow through with my actions.


Thank you for the help!

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Should I approach my dad about this incident?



If so how should I do it?

Ask Hope.


Any recommendations on how to handle this? Do I confront them now before something comes up, or just wait until it happens and address it then?

Yes. My first thought is to keep all the children away from him until you can confront them. Even then, I would keep them away until they agree to every demand you have regarding your children. Make sure to ask Hope if she wants to be there when you do.


I plan to apologize to my father-in-law about how I have treated his daughter the majority of our marriage. This is something I have no issues with doing, but just as the passive guy goes, I haven't done it yet. This is important to Hope, and I am going to get it done. Any advice on what should be said or covered would be great.

Ask Hope.


As a dad myself, it would kill me to find out that a man treated my daughter the way that I treated yours. I am truly sorry and hope you can forgive me.

This is exactly what should be on your heart when you talk to your dad about how he treats your daughter.


I have never flirted with her and my ways are childish. Even when I think about how to do it, or how to express it in a text message/email, it still comes out childish.

It is tough to accept sometimes that we grow the most when we make mistakes. Let your flirting be childish if that is all you know. If Hope doesn't like it, she'll tell you. If you want to know how she likes to be flirted with,... you guessed it, ask Hope.

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What if I'm not sure of the best solutions either... :lol:


Then you brainstorm. Start thinking out loud, talk out your ideas, and keep coming back to it until you come up with something you are both comfortable with.


Last year, HerDensity wrote a letter to Eeyore's family . . . I copied it here because I thought it might help you come up with some ideas for your own situation.


Melissa's Family:


I am writing this letter to explain to you the person that your daughter married - this is not going to be an easy letter to write, nor is it going to be an easy letter for you to read. You will not want to believe what I have to say, but I promise you, it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. This is probably the first real truth that most of you have ever seen or heard from me.


I am not the "good man" that you think that I am - I have NEVER treated your daughter kindly, at least within the walls of our home. In your homes, I appear to be the "Greatest Husband Ever Created!", but it is only surface level and is only for appearances sake to make myself appear great in your eyes - usually, I am treating Melissa horribly at the same time (or was before we arrived). I act like everything is great, and work very hard at making Melissa look like the "bad guy", like she is "hyper-sensitive", or that she "wears the pants and tells me what to do".


She is NOT a control-freak - I am; I always NEED to be in control of every conversation, argument, and situation, to the point where I do not care what anyone else thinks about Melissa, as long as I get my way. I will "push her buttons" in ways that no one else can see, just to "set her off" in front of everyone, while I remain calm and cool and look like the "great, peaceful presence in the marriage". My method of control is "under the surface" and very passive - I use subtlety to control conversations with Melissa, confusing her to the point of appearing crazy to others and to herself! If you are surprised by this, or are having a difficult time believing me - that should just show you how good I am that this!


I know that Melissa has tried to explain some of this to you all over the years, and that you just didn't believe her - I can understand that. I am a deceitful person, and purposefully did all that I could to try to paint myself in such a good light that NOTHING Melissa would say could convince anyone differently. Well, I lied to you - all of you. I wanted so badly to be accepted and loved that I would do anything, including divide my wife and her family, to feel that acceptance from all of you. I am a very insecure person, and just don't love myself enough to feel accepted without "proof" - I simply had to make you like me, and was fine with sacrificing your acceptance of Melissa to gain your love. I never realized how much I was hurting Melissa by my selfishness - I guess that's the definition of selfishness, isn't it?


In any relationship, there are times of conflict and disagreement - unfortunately, in our relationship, I wouldn't allow us to discuss anything that might have caused me discomfort. If Melissa brought up a topic (completely valid, mind you) that I didn't feel comfortable discussing, I would change the subject without caring about her feelings or I would say something, then change my story, then change it again, then deny that I changed it or said the original thing, until we were arguing about my changing the subject, instead of the actual subject. We fought over my changing the subject (this is called "manipulation" and I rock at it) instead of the true issue, which never got dealt with and just lingered within our relationship and within Melissa's heart. This built up so much resentment within Melissa that I believed I might never get back to the point where she could trust me in a conversation, and I can't blame her. No one can destroy this much trust and still expect to be allowed to participate in a loving relationship - I have no idea if she will ever have the grace to forgive me and allow me back into her heart. I did this our entire marriage, and still do at times - I am working hard now on changing this behavior and truly listening to Melissa for the first time.


Our relationship has never had truth in it - since the start, I was hiding something from Melissa. At first it was the porn, and then it was the pain and shame I had inside. Melissa would do ANYTHING to help me to heal from my past, but I would never be honest enough with her to let her close enough to me or to understand my pain. I have not shared my life with her - she has been more of a roommate than a wife, more of an acquaintance than a close friend. Even during conversations where she KNEW that I was lying about something, I would not share more than she already knew. I never REVEALED anything to her, she always EXTRACTED information from me. So much of her desire for a marriage lies in honest, straight-forward conversation, and that is one of the last things that I have wanted to give her. I have protected the garbage that I have inside to the point of collapse of our marriage; the truly sad thing is that when we actually pry open my shell long enough to dig out some of that "highly protected garbage", it is just junk with no value to anyone. I have protected the pain and hurt and misery inside myself like it is the secret to life as we know it - again, just pure selfishness and self-protection at the cost of Melissa and our relationship.


Melissa has always had the best interests of our marriage at her core - she has tried EVERYTHING that she could think of to get me to see how much I was hurting her, and how poorly I was valuing our marriage. I would not listen - I would apologize enough to smooth over the issue at hand, promise to change, and maybe even change for a short time; but, before too long, I would revert back to my hurtful ways, and bring more pain to Melissa. When she was hurting, I would typically just go on about my life as if nothing is wrong, or act like it was her deal. There were times when she was hurting SO bad that she was lying on the floor crying, and I would just sit and look at her - I was never empathetic to her pain, and would rarely comfort her when she was hurting. When we would talk about my behavior later, I would typically defend myself, make excuses, and turn the entire issue around onto her. I would constantly confuse her during conversations, even ones about simple, basic, common-day topics, by restating things that I had just said or by telling her that I didn't mean what I just said or by saying something and then denying that I just said it. I drove her into depression by my actions, my neglect, my distance, and my lack of caring - she has been on the verge of insanity and suicide countless times during our marriage; if not for the kids, I think that she would have died to stop the pain long ago.


I am sure that you will read this letter and think "It can't be that bad" - well, it can be, and it is. Melissa is miserable, unhappy, and hurting. We have reached the end of the line - we have been getting help from a great marriage ministry (http://godsavemymarriage.com), but there is a lot of hurt, pain, anger, and other things to work through before we will ever be happy. The pain in our marriage has been my fault - I also hold the key to healing it. Part of that is to admit to all of you the truth about me and our marriage, and to help you understand what Melissa has been through, and why she isn't the person that she should be. You need to believe this letter and embrace Melissa - regardless of what happens to our marriage, she needs to know that you (her family) love her more than anything else, and accept her UNCONDITIONALLY. She bears NO FAULT for our marriage situation - I cannot emphasize this enough! I never engaged into this marriage with everything I have - I always held something back. Melissa put everything in, and got hurt more than a human being should have to hurt as a result. This isn't her fault - this is mine, 100%.


One thing that I ask of all of you - if you have questions or comments or want to discuss this letter, please call or email me, not Melissa. This letter is about me answering for what I have done to you, her family, and you deserve the truth as much as she does. I promise that I will answer any questions that you have truthfully and that I will listen to whatever you have to say. I am deeply sorry for the pain that I have caused Melissa, and the walls that I have created within your family.



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Thanks for the responses. Hope and I are talking about the best way to address some of these issues. Our main area of difficulty is finding a solution for dealing with my dad and my brother.


An example for my dad is that he was rude to my son a few months back. I let him know but he didn't say a word and didn't make any move to apologize. Instead he just changed the subject. I would note that he is very passive aggressive and doesn't like anyone telling him what to do.


My brother is more on the aggressive side. He snaps at them pretty much every time we visit. He has also talked down to me on many occasions and treated me like a child.


We see my dad just about every week as they are our babysitters for "date night". My brother I see only a few times a year. What would be the best way to confront each of them on this issue? Should I mention consequences at the time of confrontation should they not follow what I am saying? And, what kind of consequences would be appropriate?


Also, how should I handle the incident from a few years back where my dad was very rude to Hope? Hope and I continue to discuss our ideas but would really appreciate more advice. Thanks again!

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Short and simple.


"Dad, there have been several occasions when you have been rude to my wife and children (be prepared to give examples if he "doesn't know what you're talking about"). I have not confronted you before, and that was wrong of me. I will no longer allow you to treat them this way. If you are unable to control your behavior, then you will be asked to leave. We would like to have a relationship with you, but not if you are going to continue to abuse my wife and kids. The choice is yours."


You need to find another babysitter for date night for the time being, or come up with dates that don't require you to leave the house (yes, it can be done). Dad is more likely to change if he realizes you don't "have" to put up with his behavior. Not seeing his grandchildren for a couple of weeks might give him some incentive to change.


Brother is a little easier . . . if you are going for a visit (and I would recommend that YOU visit HIM for now, because it's easier for you to leave than to try to get him out of your house), simply call him ahead of time. "Brother, the last several times we've seen you, you've been snapping at my wife and kids. I should have said something then, and I didn't. I want you to know that I will no longer allow you to tread them this way. If you treat them like that while we're there, I will call you out on it. I will give you an opportunity to apologize, but if you don't, we will be leaving immediately. We would like to see you and have a nice visit, but whether that happens is totally up to you."


Please remember that you are to leave and cleave . . . Hope and the kids are your family, and you are under no obligation to have a relationship with your family of origin. Your dad and brother treat you this way because you allow it. Stop allowing it, and it might change . . . or they might get mad and not speak to you again. You are going to have to be ok if they make that choice. Either way, Hope and the kids are protected.

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One more question... About a month ago, I talked to my brother about coming together and talking to my dad about getting our mom a new washer/dryer (theirs are very old and they have plenty of money to replace them). (An incident I posted not too long ago on this thread.) My brother took great offense to this and told me it would be greatly disrespectful to confront the head of the house in such a way (holding him accountable to taking care of my mom). He thought instead we should go behind his back and purchase the washer/dryer for them. I backed up my reasons to confront in a nice way and he never replied back (the exchange was by email).


Since then, he has been very distant. So I think at this point, he may not care if he can't visit with us. If that is the case, is there a different consequence, or should I just leave it as a statement without a consequence?

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My brother took great offense to this and told me it would be greatly disrespectful to confront the head of the house in such a way (holding him accountable to taking care of my mom). He thought instead we should go behind his back and purchase the washer/dryer for them.

is he a Christian?

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Yes, a seemingly strong one too. But he also appears to be very strong about the man being the head (in a ruler type of way). His wife is submissive and doesn't stand up for herself when he snaps at her.

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