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Free Dog and Chrystal - working towards an OHM

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That is very true, focusing on Crystal really does cause the negative feelings to fall. Focusing on the positives really does build her up. As a new creation in Christ how can one be negatively focused since we now are blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places? It is becoming easier.


I love Crystal very much, I love the way her smile brightens a cloudy day. To think of her is such a blessing and soothing to the soul.


Nothing less than first degree murder for the arrested child will do. I have been learning this week just how much this kid has ruined Crystal and the pain and humiliation he caused. Praise God, outward and upward , this dog will be trained yet.

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Here you go, Eric. Post something you've learned that is more humiliating for you instead of something surreal and in your head. I suggest something like the peanut butter incident or something else that you don't have written down already. Here you go: :shock:


A couple days ago while I was making my lunch for work Crystal pointed out that a jar of peanut butter was up in the cabinet with the bowls and wondered how it got there. She hadn't put it there, the kids hadn't, and i said that i hadn't either. She started to get upset then I fessed up that i had put it there as I wasn't crazy about that kind. I then asked the Lord how I could have handled that better, His response was "Just tell the truth,don't deny what you have done."


OK, now to clarify. I prefaced what I said with, "This isn't an accusation," I knew it was his peanut butter, because no one else in the house eats peanut butter. I already knew he had put it there. I was simply letting him know that I was putting in a different place with food instead of with dishes. I was not getting upset! He claimed not to know anything about it, so as I moved it I was telling him that at least it won't be anybody in our family that will get upset about it changing places----since it wasn't me or him or the kids that put it there. He stuck with his story that it wasn't his, it didn't matter and that was that. A few minutes later he confessed that it WAS indeed his, that he had bought it and didn't like it, so he hid it. This confession came after, as he told you, that he prayed about guidance about the best way to handle it. The answer came to him that the best thing to do is to be honest. Duh. I wouldn't have thought of that. Just a little example, it wasn't a big deal in my mind except that he had the revelation on his own that it might be best to be honest about even little things. He's getting nervous about all I'm writing, so I better quit. He doesn't like it when I humiliate him. He likes to look like he's all good. Don't worry about him, he can handle it. He'll be the one clicking submit, not me! :)

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Yesterday my arrested child came out to play, not exactly sure when, but that really is not important. Being a rainy all day only added to the turmoil and to Crystal's frustration. I learned big time that if I ever get Crystal's trust back it will be a miracle for I give her nothing to trust in.


One area of growth, I believe, is learning what a deep emotion love really is. It is so much more than the kindness, gentleness, hugs and kisses. I have only known and shown love in this superficial way because my arrested kid cannot handle anything deeper. In that state of arrestedness I only look to love Crystal for my stability and happiness, granted there are times this is not true the arrested kid is not the constant he used to be. When he does come out though all those other times are collapsed together in Crystal's mind and it is a huge hurt for her.


The deeper areas of love I am only now coming to grips with; honesty, trust, openness of heart, never failing (being constant no matter what). I can thank Crystal for that, for it is only through her venting that I/we will ever experience the deeper aspects of love. I know that I really do need Crystal, not to lean on as I have been doing, but to grow up and put away the childish things. I need her to keep me in the fire to purge this brat out. i need her so that I can become the man Christ made me to be.


I am learning to realize when the kid is coming out, the foot work comes in communication, another area i can thank Crystal for showing me, I am forever in debt to her. These are only words, but they are all i have to convey the thoughts onto paper.

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I received an assignment this weekend to laugh at something my kids said that was meant to be funny, an actual outside my head laugh that is.

I suppose it sounds like a silly task, but I really like the assignment for it makes me do something i have not done, sadly, and that is to actually listen to my children for their sakes and appreciate them, not listen for my sake and needs.

This is more a life assignment than just a weekend assignment.

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Something I am finally beginning to realize is that there are actual reasons for Crystal's "moods"; things like headaches, nausea,dreams, things people said to her in books or person ... Not usually for the self-centered, paranoid, insecure reasons my mind conceives. I know she loves me, if she didn't she would have left along time ago. These pop-ups of paranoia are hindrances to understanding Crystal.

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In response to my last post; knowing that my conception of Crystal's "moods" is in my head and no where else I can prayerfully delete them as they pop-up.


The post for today is that I am learning the importance of space. Space in a relationship is not meant to keep one away, but rather to allow room for love to grow.


When I become clingy and insecure it causes Crystal to scrunch up and close off like the leaves of a mimosa tree when they are irritated. It is repressive to her because it is not done out of love for her but rather for my own self worth.

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The times when I take initiative in things, I have noticed that Crystal is more at ease with herself and the world around her. I can only imagine the years of frustration she went through having to initiate everything because I was just too immature and afraid to step out. Not that those days are that far behind.


One day a few weeks ago we were getting ready to take a walk around the lake. I invited the dog, Crystal said 'oh, is Gretchen coming?" Instead of being an initiator and saying yes, I thought she didn't want her to come so I told her to get out of the car. Crystal then said "Oh, she is not coming." I kept responding, quickly sending the afternoon down the tubes trying to get out of responding mode and into initiator mode.


It is amazing how crippling arrested development is to a relationship. It is like a runner when he pulls a hamstring during a run, it just lays him out and can only then limp along. In the example above, the day went down hill from there. Before Joel and Kathy I would have seen the situation as confusing and weird/immature on Crystal's part, now I see the arrested development and immaturity on my part and how it cripples our relationship.


The above scene occurred pre-intensive, but just yesterday we were going to lunch. Crystal was going to drive so I went to the other car to get my wallet. Crystal walked to that car and in response to her I turned back to the car until she said something like "Oh I thought we were going to take the Pontiac". I wasn't taking the initiative by continuing on to the Pontiac, instead i responded to her supposed lead (supposed only in my head that is) by being an obedient child and getting the other car.


The arrested development in these cases seems to manifest itself as unsureness and wondering what would be to proper response to Crystal. I should be initiating not responding. There is nothing in my head that will help, but only by the grace God has placed in my heart, to LISTEN to Crystal.

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Sunday was a revealing day. The hypocrite in me came out on our walk in the morning. I was on Crystal's left side with the wind coming in from the right. I wanted to walk on her left side so as to hear her. Did I ask her to move nicely? or just step around back and say excuse me? No, I handled her like so much baggage and moved her out of the way with out saying anything. I had hurt her shoulder, she then showed me what it was like and moved me, later in the walk she asked if my arm hurt, I in my arrogance did not even stop to think about hurting her. The hypocracy came in that I say Ibelieve that women are equals, but in my actions say differently.


After church Crystal was discussing hanging a bluebird house for her. She wanted it either in the back or in the side yard where she could see it, she even looked up how far apart they should be and determined the side yard was the place. We looked at the trees and she choose a couple and determined if a branch was cut off one then it would do. I was still in my almighty mindset, repeated what she said as if it was my own instead of just shutting up and letting her have the last say. Then when she started talking about how over the years I have put my scent around the property to the point she feels she has no control over it, even though she grew up here and has more right to ownership than I ever will. My arrogant kid came out and said to the effect " You don't know what I think". This is co-owned land but I selfishly deny her input into its use.

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Thanks for sharing so honestly.


Here are a couple of questions:


1. Are you reading the book at least 10 minutes a day?

2. Are you watching at least one hour of the DVD's per week?

3. Are you on the conference calls at least 30 minutes per week?

4. Are you keeping your wife on the forefront of your mind?


The reason I ask these things is that it seems that when husbands are not staying consistent in this process they are also not following through with the simple homework assignments from the intensive. Joel and Kathy are smart. They know that laying down your life for your wife requires a whole new way of thinking for you. You need to be "soaking" in those principles every day. The homework is there to help keep you on track.


If you will follow through with the homework and work diligently on "keeping your wife at the forefront of your mind" you are going to be much more successful at being a source of life to Crystal. She needs YOU to take responsibility for the state of the marriage here. If you see that you are lacking in the area of initiating, then INITIATE by being faithful to the homework... with the idea that the homework is going to keep you more in tune to what SHE needs.


It is good that you are seeing where you need to grow... but only if you actually press through what gets you stuck so that you can actually GROW. It sounds to me like you are trying to figure out a bunch of stuff in your head before you actually take action. That means Crystal is left waiting--with nothing positive to respond to--while you figure it out. There is nothing left to figure out. Be a blessing to your wife.


Here is a simple adjustment. If, as you were on your walk, you would have had Crystal at the forefront of your mind and had been thinking, "What can I do to bless her right now?" you would have been more gentle, more in tune to how you were handling her. It's really that simple. Don't overthink it. The arrested development is real. And so is the growth out of it. Don't get stuck on "I'm so arrested." Get stuck on, "I am going to grow up! And I am going to love on Crystal right on up into maturity!"

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Thank-you Pebbles for responding to my husband's thread. And thank-you for responding on mine too. It helps a lot.


Freedog has followed his homework to a T, often going above and beyond the reading and listening assignments. Freedog is eager and happy to do anything I ask for him to do. He loves lists and tasks. Mostly I don't need him to do things and tasks for me.


Part of his arrested development is trying to earn love by doing chores and tasks and doing MORE than he's asked to do. That's what he means by leaving his scent on things I ask him to do. If I ask him to do something for me, I have to be very specific about what I don't want, or he'll make it all about HIM.


I feel bad, because some wives would be so delighted to have a husband who is happy to DO tasks. He's pretty good at making lists and promises too. Maybe if tasks and chores were actually one of my needs then maybe he wouldn't be so eager.


All I really want from Freedog is understanding, respect, sincerity and honesty. There's probably more, but that's all I can think of at the moment. I don't need laundry or dishes or vacuuming or wood chopped. Those things will not win my heart. But understanding wows me. Respect thrills me. Speaking to me sincerely and honestly, but without honest words that hurt me...like some of the "honest" things he told me this weekend. I can do without that kind of honesty. What I mean is the kind of honesty that when something sincere is said to me that it doesn't contradict something he tells me a few minutes later. That kind of honesty. The kind of honesty that cares more about me than it cares about himself.


What I need from him is too abstract. When he can get his focus off of what he can do to please me, then things go more smoothly.

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It is good that you are seeing where you need to grow... but only if you actually press through what gets you stuck so that you can actually GROW. It sounds to me like you are trying to figure out a bunch of stuff in your head before you actually take action. That means Crystal is left waiting--with nothing positive to respond to--while you figure it out. There is nothing left to figure out. Be a blessing to your wife.


This is the curse - or call it challenge - of the passive man.


631 commented that he would look to his wife to see if he could sense her "inviting" him to initiate - and if he felt like he might get rejected, he would not initiate.


Here is the solution:


Here is a simple adjustment. If, as you were on your walk, you would have had Crystal at the forefront of your mind and had been thinking, "What can I do to bless her right now?" you would have been more gentle, more in tune to how you were handling her. It's really that simple. Don't overthink it. The arrested development is real. And so is the growth out of it. Don't get stuck on "I'm so arrested." Get stuck on, "I am going to grow up! And I am going to love on Crystal right on up into maturity!"


Thanks Pebbles!

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Thank-you for the advice Pebbles, I really appreciate it.


Between 8am to 1:30pm Thursday I probably broke every principle in first Corinthians 13:4-8, there were not too many I left out.


Crystal and I went for our morning walk and by the back door I felt like I could handle anything Crystal could throw at me, including a knife to the belly. Coming in the back door, a distance of about six feet from where I just made this pronouncement, crystal said something that i do not recall. Instead of saying something like "Thanks for pointing that out...", I went into my "OH no she is criticising me" mode instead.


I may have popped out of that mindset later in the morning, but before I left for work we were sitting on the front porch and she said that she might be feeling a little depressed since before the intensive. Naturally I said something to the effect that "I take full responsibility for that." Instead of respecting her opening up and maybe saying something like "Would you like to talk about it?" or "Tell me more about it" or just saying nothing and allowing her to speak on if she wanted to.


Today on our walk around the lake she was sharing some thoughts, stopped to think... I naturally had to fill the gap by "filling in the blanks for her", not at all patient or respectful.


Half, or more, of learning to understand crystal is just shutting up and showing patience, which is showing respect at the same time. One of the definitions of sincerity in Webster's is that it is "freedom from duplicity", In our case that means freedom from the yo-yo man that yanks Crystal about.


Sorry for being so rude today Crystal and implying you are dumb, you are anything but that, in fact a near genius. I love you.

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Something I am starting to understand about this journey is that when Crystal vents, or "shares her emotions", now it is because she feels able to and has been empowered by J & K to speak up.

What I am understanding is is that this is an opportunity to adapt to Crystal. At first it was a shock, "Where did this come from?"and then run far away. Then it was "Why does she keep crabbin'?" and then turn inside. I am starting to see it now as "Oh, she is sharing her feelings that she has not been able to before." still try to fix it, but I think less so now.

the task is to work on consistency. This weekend was good, yesterday was not. I was tired from too much overtime and just not "with it". I had a "poor baby" attitude, as if I was the only one to work overtime ever or was the only person to be tired. Crystal worked the day before, dealt with grumpy kids and then had to deal with a grumpy husband. I am very sorry to say that I did not sow much life and instead sucked it out like a dry sponge.

A problem that persists is that when i start thinking things are better or that I am finally "getting it", sure enough I get bucked off my high horse. I thank God for Crystal, she helps me off my high horse when I start to climb on, I really do need her.


P.S. Does any one want to buy a really good horse? He is really tall.-

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I'm posting this here instead of on my own thread, because this way I know Freedog will see it.


I'm thankful for this forum, so that I read what other passive guys do and I can be comforted that I'm not crazy. Freedog has been chomping at his bit to post about this week-end. I don't think it's a good idea for him to post it, because it feels to me like he's actually proud of it. It's nothing to be proud of except that it was a God given learning opportunity for both of us. Now let's see if Freedog actually uses it to learn from.


I determined in my heart last week that I need to respond warmly. I haven't been cold, more like lukewarm. I turned up my temperature a little and Freedog let it go to his head instead of to his heart. I do hope that husbands appreciate how very difficult it is to respond warmly after being treated badly for so many years. Don't take it for granted. It's very difficult and risky to let our guard down. I know that I should not let our experience this week-end turn me back into an ice cube and I'm determined in my heart not to let it.


In the same way that Freedog should be able to absorb my venting without it hurting his feelings, he should also be able to absorb my warmth without it going to his head.


We were enjoying some beautiful autumn sunshine on the deck of a winery looking over some of our state's most beautiful scenery. The deck was crowded with people enjoying the day. Freedog and I were focused only on each other laughing and talking about the future and being close. There was a table of beautiful girls behind me...with hindsight, we probably should have switched places when they came in, but we didn't. One of the beautiful girls stood up and asked the crowd of people if someone would be willing to take a group picture. She did not just ask Freedog, but the whole crowd of people, including a table of single guys (My own curiosity, I had checked their left hands for rings, not because I was interested, but because I was curious if they had left their wives at home. No wedding bands.) who were sitting behind Freedog. Without a moments hesitation, MR. GOOD GUY FREEDOG volunteered. Then he proceeded not just to snap the photo, but to clear rearrange the table to make it a better picture. Such a GOOD GUY. He loves to impress people with what a good guy he is. They were ever so thankful.


Of course I pointed out what a perfect opportunity it would have been to bless me instead of them by IGNORING the pretty girl, someone else could have done as good a job as he did, maybe even better. I am quite absolutely sure that I would have noticed if he had not volunteered. He has perpetual good-guy disorder (PGGD). If he could only put his energies into impressing me and our sons.


This incident following one the day before when we went to an awards program for our son. My sister and her son were there and Freedog chose to sit by my sister instead of by me, because he's such a good guy and he felt badly that her husband wasn't there with her. I didn't hesitate to point out, out loud in front of everybody near, that he should be more concerned about me feeling awkward about sitting alone than about her. To his credit, he said I was right and without causing a scene moved next to me and put his arm around me.


I am determined still to respond warmly to Freedog and I pray he doesn't take advantage of me. I pray that we can have a warm loving relationship that reflects the love of Jesus to the world. He seems to take these incidents and use them to define HIMSELF. "See what a bad/good guy I am." Attention getting I guess. And I'm still not sure if he realizes or cares what it does to me inside.


Now we'll see if Freedog even notices or mentions that I posted on his thread.


We'll be cleaning house today, (notice I said WE) for an overflowing house of Thanksgiving guests tomorrow.


Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!!

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It sounds to me like you are doing a GREAT job of being a helpmeet. You are staying in touch with the need to respond warmly when Freedog is doing things that minister to you and pointing out to him the things that hurt you. BRAVO!


I hear your exasperation over the two events of the weekend. I so get it. But I also want to encourage you. Although it is probably wearisome that you have to keep pointing these things out to him, I do believe that the more that you do it, he will start to identify these things on his own.


I know this to be true from my own marriage. I have watched it happen. Post-intensive my husband was still constantly engaging women in conversation (at restaurants, clothing stores, etc.)--"just being nice." I told him how much this bothered me. He got it and wanted to change, but it took him awhile to notice this pattern on his own. This had always been an issue in our marriage and a big source of pain for me.


He is becoming really sensitive in this area now. He picks up on things I never thought he'd see. Recently, while helping a client in his business, she began to unburden herself and tell him of all her woes regarding her impending divorce. He caught on right away. He detected her need for a man to listen to her and he got out of there! He encouraged her to read Joel and Kathy's books and didn't engage in the conversation. Before, he would have tried to convince me how he was just being loving and kind by listening to her... so glad that is over.


The point is that as much as we would love our husbands to never repeat the things that we have told them that hurt us, they do. It takes time for them to change. But if you will continue to point these things out to him, and he stays in an open place, he will get more and more sensitive on his own... Think Joel Davisson. He gets it. And freedog can to.


Keep at it, Crystal. You are making headway...

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Sorry Folks, THIS message is written by me, CRYSTAL, not Freedog...


It's discouraging. I feel like I must be doing something very wrong. I spend half my life these days depressed and I don't even know how to talk about it anymore. Freedog is such a good person to be around, but if I show any glimmer of weakness he falls apart and pulls out his old moldy box of tricks and so it ruins my feelings about the few good days that we might have had, because it feels like the good was all a lie. It feels like if I could just be happy all the time then things would be fine, but that's not even true...yesterday, after he finished reading from Livin' It and Lovin' It aloud to me, we were feeling fine & I was trying to explain something to him, I don't remember what. Whatever it was I said, he felt threatened and tried to "attack" kiss me while I was talking, I instinctively pulled away and it hurt his feelings. Next thing I know he's pouting and angry, even after JUST reading from Joel and Kathy and HE said I should change the locks and he should move out. He acts like he is so sensitive with easily hurt feelings and I can't help but FEEL like I'm being too harsh on him. I try to call these episodes little bumps in the road, I try to be positive to encourage his good behavior, but when he starts pouting and feeling sorry for himself I feel very angry at him. When he eventually pulls himself out of it, We make up, & make love & I sometimes feel used and the cycle starts over. Sometimes it feels like he's WAITING for some transformation to happen to him. I have told him that the transformation has already taken place, he already understands and knows perfectly well how to put it into practice and there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever for him to treat me so badly when he doesn't feel appreciated or feels misunderstood. I don't talk with any of my friends anymore, I don't know how to talk about my life. I don't even like to talk to Freedog in front of the kids, because there is no telling where our conversation will end up. If I ever have a conflict with the boys, it seems he sides with them against me. Oh yeah and there was a stranger in the yard one day last week and I started questioning the stranger as to what he was doing in our yard (he was a surveyer, but had not informed us that he was there and since we live out in the country it felt odd and weird that he was set up looking toward window as I had walked by the window, felt assaulted, y'know?) anyhow, Freedog seemed to side up with the stranger...kinda like, "my mom's just kinda moody, ignore her and she'll go away..." and when I tried to tell Freedog how it made me feel, he felt criticized and picked on and it made him go in his head. Almost daily things like this happen and we should be well past the point of him being so . . . I don't know...womanly? I am well beyond confused and not sure what I should be doing or not doing. Are they normal bumps? Am I not responding warmly? Am I responding too warmly? I am not dropping my expectations, we're too far into this for me to either resign or lower my expectations. We are definitely not having an outrageously happy marriage, because he falls too frequently and I never have a chance to feel safe enough to let my guard down. Often when I try to tell him how I feel he gets defensive and hurt. I don't trust the good days, they seem like they must be nothing but lies. When he falls, he is NO DIFFERENT than he was back in the old days of porn before Joel and Kathy. I'm pretty sure his eyes are faithful to me now, but those old defenses kick in like he has to cover up and make himself look good. Other times, he seems so strong and only concerned about me and my feelings, but who can trust it? I'm just rambling, not sure if I'm makin much sense or not. Maybe I'll feel better in the morning...


This post has been edited by FreeDog: 04 January 2011 - 10:01 PM

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has been a while since last post. Sorry to say, Plans For Hope, that consistency is still lacking. I know I have control over my attitudes and actions. They don't "Just Happen", or that they are "Just a part of me". Despite knowing this i willingly choose not to love Crystal consistently. I allow her feelings to become my own, trying to figure out what she wants to hear, and I react to her as a child. It is purely manipulative behavior and it frustrates her to no end. She wants to grow and experience a truley consistant relationship, and that is our desire. It becomes the same old song and dance, few days good then wham. Lots of stupid pride and ego left around. But we are growing as a couple, the good times are great and present a foretaste of what it will be like. Christ is working in our relationship day by day. I am starting to learn to recognize when I am choosing to fall away from Crystal and then return, but not every time consistently. I still need her to tell me and even then I get defensive. poor Crystal, what she has to endure, I am really sorry. Thank-you Crystal for allowing me to hang around and become a Christ like husband for you. You really are beautiful, really, and we will make it, really.


Attended Sept. 30 - October 4, '09 Weekend Marriage Intensive - Loving Crystal!



A little explaination is in store here. I was posting under Couples working to build an OHM, but I need help and it was suggested that i go back to working to win her heart back. The previous post and the post above are the last posts that i wrote and that my wife Crystal wrote, hers is the first one, mine comes first and her's is the reply. For more history we are under the couples working towards an OHM under Crystal and Freedog.


like I said I need help. I know whqat to do and can do it wonderfully ... for a few days and then for what ever reason fall flat and become....self focused, and we start over again. it is wearing on Crystal to no end. I am not into porn, swimsuit mags, men's mags, glossy ads, and have not self gratified since probably May or June of 2k09. We attended our intensive end of Sept. 2k09. So, any help would be much appreciated as Crystal is at the end of her rope.

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Well, it seems that since you have chosen to go back nearly to square one (because a few days good then a few days bad IS ABUSIVE) then your actions needed to recover should go back to the basics:

reading: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/forum/5-ministry-to-men-who-are-working-to-win-their-wifes-heart-back/

reading/viewing/listening to EVERY part (yes, every single section, link, recording, etc)

of: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/forum/24-please-open-this-section-first/

mother-son issues: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1026-mother-son-issues-by-joel/

test for ADD: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1656-online-test-for-addadhd/


AND in the meantime, you should be re-working (or going over) the list of 100 hurts that you have caused your wife, SPECIFIC things -- (if you cannot recall, go to the end of Ch 14 of Livin' It and Lovin' It to consider another man's sinfulness against his wife)


take the abuse/power/control questionaire again: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/3188-abusepowercontrol/ (and listen to the recording/call that is in that section ~1 hr)


This will take you some time, BUT will be well worth it if you want to save your marriage -- a woman cannot handle (emotionally or physically) the heapings of cortisol that you keep pouring on Crystal, so it is time to get SERIOUS about loving your wife consistently and EVERY DAY. I mean, really, Freedog, would you want to eat a meal that had a bit of arsenic here and a dash of turpentine there, with some crushed up glass in your beverage? Of course not, yet that is what you've been expecting Crystal to accept as her emotional diet -- and it is wrong!


SO, it is great you are here -- that you ARE COMMITTED to DOing this --- and it is in the DOing that YOU will change.


prayerfully and with much encouragement and HOPE for ya'll to have an OHM,

June of

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Thanks June!


Freedog, you don't call Chrystal your mom, do you?



Phone calls guys.. .phone calls. John and Susan... tonight.. 9 pm. Be there or be square.. (uggh.. yes, I AM getting close to 50 years of age!)

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