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Divorce Rather Than Participate Here


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Menomama!

 

My husband and I enjoyed talking to you an hour or so ago. I'm very glad Dory recommended us!

 

Now, I feel like picking apart your husband's last email. You don't mind, do you? :)

 

Quote:

I did not steal your money. He did not say what he would call his actions. "Revenge," possibly? Or "a temper tantrum"?

 

You refused to allow me access when I asked nicely. (This isn't true as he had a debit card just like me, all the time. I never took any money out of the bank escept for two meals) I stayed at a hotel for 5 nights just to get away but used case that my dad gave me.)

 

I sent a second e-mail asking again necely. You didn't reply. You scare me with your behavior. He has "scared" you for 37 years. You're not out for revenge, though, which was his immediate reaction, above. You're "out" with the purpose of provoking CHANGE, hopefully leading to an outrageously happy marriage!

However, I will be fair and place your check amount back into the acct. today. A little relenting. That's good.

 

You need to know that I will not make reservations to go with you to FL. We shall see... 8)

 

You also need to know that I did read both books twice and have some real concerns regarding that ministry as well as Paul Hegstrom. But Paul Hegstrom has a PhD! :shock:

 

You don't need to return home. Yes, you do. And HE needs to leave, if he does't like the atmosphere.

 

You would only want to fight or give me the silent treatment. I doubt you can talk with me in a reasonable way. Sigh... You've only been trying for 37 years!

 

However, if you want to come home and have a mature discussion I would be glad to talk. No, no. That's OK. The two of you can talk on Joel and Kathy's conference calls.

 

You have to understand that I do love you but actions of walking out, demanding that I read those books and go to the conference is unreasonable. What does loving someone and calling her "unreasonable" because she's ASKING him to love her, have in common?

 

My response was to protect myself and I will do so because you are spiralling out of control. It's too bad he's married to such a "dangerous" woman!

 

You have placed in my mind a doubt that you are not to be trusted. Unfortunately this is sad. I'll say! And you aren't even the one who "stole" anything. You were just asking for love! Someday, he'll understand that.

 

Defferences we have but we also had some very positive things going for us. (All his way-no concern for my feelings or needs)! The differences are that he is self-centered and you are husband-centered. The positive things (for him) are that you have served him for 37 years. He has given you a few crumbs!

 

I told Charis and Ben (our children) because they needed to know for family events and planning for the holiday that I didn't think you would be back by then. I probably made a mistake on telling them but I felt they should know and making plans for (Ethan our grandson). Putting children ahead of wife is NOT correct prioritizing.

 

Sad, very sad you brought this to this level. He just doesn't understand -- YET-- that he is the one who brought things to this level.

 

I trust the call in conference sppnsored by this ministry is supporting your behavior. The books do encourage you to leave and see if I come back crawling and begging your forgiveness. He read that page!

 

You need to apologize for your behavior and the turmoil you have unleashed. When you can do that I will apologize for not being sensitive to your needs. He needs more "education", that's all. He has things backwards and upside down.

 

It's up to you to begin afresh or continue in with this current set of events that will not lead to a positive outcome. The books are firm that I need to break my neck to win you back and to crawl at your feet. I will not lose my dignity as a person nor will I just take your negative actions and ignore them. If he "breaks his neck" to win you back, he will gain all the dignity he could ever wish for!

 

This is harsh for me to have to say that to you but I have to tell you my feelings how you are effecting me. Just like you want to tell me yours. (I have never been asked or given the chance-as I'm still not allowed to do here, once again) Whew! This is hard work.

 

You need to give up the Joel idea of blowing the husbands brains out tith belittlement and coercion. Isn't that what your husband has been doing to you all these years? You (and J&K) want him to see that. That's all.

 

Stop living as a victim and embrace the ideas we had mutually agreed to go to counseling. That is a positive step in the right direction, as Kaghy states in the book, "its a baby step and you have to look at as a plus." (I need to look this one up in its context. I'm sure she didn't mean in the condition things are here and with his attitude toward me). I'm sure she didn't either. She was talking about a husband's baby steps in becoming the man of his wife's dreams And, you will stop living as a victim when He stops making you one.

 

I miss you Well, we'll hold on to that.

 

but I don't miss the drama and your bitterness towards me. I'm sure these words could be better said by you.

(I have never said bitter words toward him. Only that he is hurting me and won't listen to my heart of needs and try to be sensitive to them.)

 

And by the way, THE LAST SENTENCE IS NOT TO BE INTERPRETED AS ME LOOKING FOR SYMPATHY. PW

OK, we'll just interpret it privately.

 

I hope I'm not too out of line.

 

God's blessings to you, Menomama.

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Hey Mama,

 

I hear you two on the phone now. Boy, he is ANGRY!

 

Rest assured, he is very upset that his mommy left him!

 

Hang in there!

 

I can hear how stressed you are in your voice. I will be praying for you.

 

Take Care,

Julie

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Mama,

 

I just want to say that I understand why you felt the need to go to a hotel. Your husband is very angry!

 

You are a very strong woman to have continued to try to work on this for 37 years.

 

Fortunately, when they are THIS angry, that means that they love you and miss you! It's when you leave and they don't care that you have to worry.

 

He's on the call, and he's talking. This is really good. I'm going to go to bed now, but I will pray for you tonight.

 

Take Care,

Julie

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Fortunately, when they are THIS angry, that means that they love you and miss you! It's when you leave and they don't care that you have to worry.

 

He's on the call, and he's talking. This is really good. I'm going to go to bed now, but I will pray for you tonight.

 

Amen. I agree!

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I'm praying, too. My husband and I listened on the call tonight for a few minutes. When your husband spoke, we both heard MY husband's attitude, a year ago. My H was actually in tears tonight hearing your H talk, and after we hung up, he hugged me and said, "I'm so sorry." Take a look at my string on the section for wives whose husbands are working to win their hearts. God can do miracle for you like He is doing for us.

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Hi there, Menomamma,

 

Just want to encourage you to stay the course. IF he agrees to go to the Intensive, with him paying for it, then once he pays for it, you can come home, but until then, stay away from home. You are best to not communicate, either.

 

Let our words from the call, sink into him. Let him lean into God, as you do the same. All in God's timing!

 

Praying for you, today!

Kay

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Hi to everyone. Thanks for all your encouragement. The call last night was awsome. I fell asleep a couple of times for a few minutes. I have called Joel and so has my husband, and asked them to call us today. My husband is booking the Intensive today. I think it has halped that I have been e-mailing him and that I"m not doing anything crazy.....like running up credit card bills, renting an expensive apt., etc.

 

I do have a big problem/decision to make today and I'm not sure what to do. Does anyone think I should go home if he books the Intensive today. Issue is: I'm at my sister's house and she doesn't have any place for me to sleep but on the floor. My dad lives here with her, at her condo. There is a neighbor next door, who has a sleeping room with a bath that I could live in for $75 a week (I offered her that). Problem there is no kitchen or furniture. I hat to move a lot of things in there, if I'll only be there short term.

 

It would be easier to go home but I'm afraid if I go back, he will think he doesn't have to work at this as hard. On the other hand, he was on the call last night, is booking the Intensive and callling Joel. Is that enough for me to go back home? He has never been physically abusive, just withdrawn and secretive.

 

I hope Joel will call me today, so I can make an informed decision about whether or not to rent the sleeping room. I have to work tomorrow and am all acattered out and feel like i have "no place to rest my head." That came from the Bible. I'm praying for God's guidance and strength today. I'm 61 yrs. old and this is difficult at this age. Sleeping on the floor is hard on the bones. If I stay in the sleeping room, I'll get an inflatable bed. Hope I hear from Joes so I'll know whether or not to get it. I don't want to waste money on it if I'm not going to need it.

 

Home would be so much more convenient. An the other hand my husband is still worried that I may end up divorcing him, so it's good to keep him in suspense. He needs to be worried about that, because it is a true and viable option.

 

Thanks for letting me rant. Looking forward to some good feedback.

 

God bless,

 

Mary (menomama)

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Hi Menomama,

Go home and be comfortable in your own home. In-house separation is an option for many couples, especially with a passive man who poses no physical threat. You should be able to take the bedroom and demand that he as a man should at the very least, treat you with the respect of giving you the bedroom. It will be difficult no matter what you do, so you might as well be safe and comfortable. That way, if things don't go well you will have a place to plan for your future, and if things begin to turn around and improve, you can be present with your husband and be a great help-meet as he continues to cultivate Christlikeness.

 

If you choose to divorce from his complete rebellion and refusals to change, you will naturally begin to pull back emotionally and towards him become the indifferent woman that you found yourself fighting off.

 

A man who refuses to leave has the law on his side. Only extremely verbally abusive, physically threatening, or violent men will be removed or barred using a court order, that is in most states. So, even if you file for divorce tomorrow, he can still reside in the home until the judge orders the complete dispossession of the property as a part of the settlement agreement.

 

He is going to pay now or pay for the rest of his life, financially and emotionally and even physically. Studies have demonstrated that single men do not live long into their older years, but single women actually live longer than married women. Go figure! That tells you that a lot of married women are like you and many of us: putting up with nonsense of immature baby/men who suck the very life rightt out of of. Women are stronger when alone, but in a happy marriage they are the strongest and most fulfilled, no matter what age they live to.

 

That's is my 2 cents. I am so glad you are so proactive, getting on the boards, getting on the calls and following the wise counsel of so many who have walked this very path before you.

 

My bit of advice: Abandon the outcome. Release yourself from any sense of responsibility for the outcome. You get to choose. Your husband gets to choose. The outcome will be what it will be. Just walk in your truth, speak the truth about your marriage and hold fast to what the Lord has called you to do.

 

Shall I sin (or allow others to sin) that grace may about? God forbid!!!

 

Your husband's pride, arrogance, self-protection and "dignity" are not what God has called him to in marriage. He has called him to be an extravagant, fearless, sacrificial lover, just as Christ is towards us.

We should expect our husbands to be working diligently towards that end, otherwise they are quenching the Holy Spirit's work on their heart and life.

 

You have chosen a courageous path. No matter what, you will be a champion because of this choice: either you will become a stronger, free single woman or you will have the marriage you always deserved.

 

Blessing to you on this Lord's Day.

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Hey there

 

Looks like I might have to listen to last night's call to see what all happened...But from what you are saying, he's agreed to go to an intensive and talk to Joel. Did you by any change leave the books for him to read while you were gone?

 

I'm really not sure which way to go here, and I think for the time being you might want to stay where you are at, until we head from Joel on this matter. Just to make sure he does follow through with setting up the intensive and calling Joel and talking to him, and even asking him to read the books....this way he can start to learn what this ministry is all about.

 

Haven't had a chance to go back and read everything that happened yesterday, ( we were out of town with the kids), but will do so tomorrow...

 

Sounds like you are sticking to your guns right now, stay strong and know that you are doing the right things here...

 

Blessings

Heather

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MaryJane, I am so glad you dissected that letter. I was terribly tempted to do so, but I was so infuriated by what I read, that I knew I couldn't. You did a beautiful job!

 

Menomamma, we spoke on the phone together Thurs. night. This is Susan of Susan and John. Your husbands words were so very similiar to my own husband's when I left him, I couldn't reply before. My emotions would have gotten the better of me.

 

I want you to know that I am praying for you. I know how scared and hurt you are right now. It's not a fun place to be, but having been there myself, I can tell you God will not forsake you. Lean into Him and use every ounce of strength you have to listen for His guidance, and He will lead you through this Valley of the Shadow.

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Hi Dory

 

I sent you HUbby's e-mail after the call last night. He said he's willing to go to the Intensive now. They said after he hung up, he's arrogant and totally self-focused.

 

I guess I'll have to be gone for awhile. Trying to get a place to stay arranged is very difficult and I have to go back to work tomorrow. I don't even have a bathroom or shower right now. I had to sleep on my sister's floor because she only has two beds and my father is in the other. I'll have to purchase a blow up bed today and put it down.

 

Hope to get into the sleeping room today, so I can sleep somewhere half way comfortably tonight. No kitchen in there though. Only a sleeping room and bath. My sister lives right next door, though, so I can use her kitchen some. He's willing to call Joel. Can you ask Joel if he'll call him back when he calls. I hope it's today. I asked him to talk with them tonight, if they will. Hubby is in comfort of home (again) and I'm the one having to scramble!!!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't seem fair. You can post this on private thread if you wish. I don't know how to move it over.

 

Thanks and God bless,

 

Menomama

 

I disagree with FW on one small point. Sorry FW. this guy has done this to her before... and her leaving is getting him to soften.

 

My opinion is to yes, move back as soon as his promises are at least booked with deposit/money down. Since money is something he holds tightly, this would be a sign that he is going in the right direction without being manipulative. Right now he could be SAYING he'll go just to get you back, but then revert once you are back in the house. If you book it with YOUR credit cards and then he sticks you, will YOU be the one obligated to pay off those cards? i hope not. When you do move back, DO move into a different room unitl AFTER the intensive.

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We're going to be talking to Joel tonight after 8 p.m. He said he'll book the Intensive after he talks to him. I said I'll come after he books the Intensive. He told me today he's never going on the counseling calls again because they weren't "nice to me." I told him they were helping him, even though he can't see it at this time. He's still resisting but is willing to do the Intensive (I think) I said I wasn't coming back home until we were booked on a flight. He said, "I guess I have no choice." I should have said, yes, you do have a choice. It's just if you want to be with me, this is what you have to do. It's still your choice. He doesn't like it that he has to be the one to choose.

 

Thanks everyone for your input. Joel e-mailed me and said it was O.K. to go home if he calls and signs on to the Intensive. I'm not going until he does, tonight. If he doesn't then I won't go home.

 

Thanks so much. The support has been unbelievable. I couldn't be doing this without all of you and of course, the Lord.

 

God bless. Ill post later and let you know if he did sign up and book our flights. I'm going to make him pay my credit card with the money he took out of the bank.

 

Mary (menomama)

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Looking forward to hearing your next update, Menomama! God bless you richly!

 

(Thanks AC. :) I was "stirred up" too.)

 

My husband certainly indentified with yours last night. He reacted much the same way.

 

We are still "getting there".

 

It's all possible!

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I just received another e-mail from him and now he's not sure he's going. Says I might divorce him anyway. Also says it puts him on a performance relationship with me, me being the judge of his e very move! I know that's not it, but his heart still isn't right.

 

Thanks and God bless,

 

Menomama

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I just received another e-mail from him and now he's not sure he's going. Says I might divorce him anyway. Also says it puts him on a performance relationship with me, me being the judge of his e very move! I know that's not it, but his heart still isn't right.

 

Thanks and God bless,

 

Menomama

 

Is he still going to talk to Joel with you this evening?

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He told me today he's never going on the counseling calls again because they weren't "nice to me."

 

He's serious ?? :shock: We WERE nice to him, in comparison to some of the other men we have dealt with!

 

He is obvious NOT safe yet, in my opinion, for you to go home, however, IF he books an Intensive, and Joel gets through to him, then you'll need to listen to what Joel tells you to do.

 

Just make sure to keep your heart guarded. Remember, YOU are the responder to what HE is initiating. IF he emotionally abuses you in any way, then you'll need to stay "dark" within the home. Don't engage in any arguments with him, just walk away from him.

 

His pride was hurt on that phone call, but it's the "pride" that has to die, so all in all, I thought that the conference call wasn't all too bad for his first time. Many men who are rejecting the program won't even get on, and when they do, they hang up after minutes. He stayed on for 2 HOURS and listened. Not bad.

 

Yes, he has MUCH growing to do, but he does show potential, too, and where there is hope, there is victory! Remember, God CAN move mountains.

 

It was a pleasure to work with you both last night! (Sorry if I was too easy on him. :wink: ) Trust me, I could have blasted him. I have a history. :oops: Just wanted to try a different way of getting through to him. Possibly it worked ?? We will see.

 

Praying for you both!

Kay

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Let's just say that God was protecting him last night and he sould be really glad it wasn't me on the call...I can be pretty blunt with these guys sometimes, and I know that can put them off....so I would probably say that he was probably handled with kid gloves...even without having a chance to listen to the call yet...will get to that tomorrow...but still...

 

He is reacting out of a emotional age of about 2 years olds...

 

Let's see if he actually follows through with talking with Joel and getting the deposit paid for...

 

Blessings

Heather

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menomama: Just want to post here and say that going to an intensive with a man who is clearly not ready is torture. I did it and my life was miserable that weekend. Please - we need to all pray for this situation regarding what it will take to make him truly ready. If he goes with the attitude I heard last night, he will not hear any of it. His heart is so hard!

 

Lord God, our loving Father, please help menomama to discern Your way in this situation. She needs to know when she can move back into her home, she needs to know whether it is your timing for her to go to an intensive, she needs to know how to stand up to her husband both away from Him and with him.

 

Lord, you provided a home for me and my girls, so I am asking you for a bed for menomama by tomorrow night (Monday) - that she will be somewhere and it will be given to her, free of charge. Or that she will feel you blessing to go home. Or that she will hear you tell her to buy a bed, a real, comfortable one, since she needs good sleep to deal with this. May she know you as Jehovah Jireh, the provider.

 

In Jesus' powerful name,

Amen

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Hi 'again everyone. Last night was a real fiasco. I moved back home because he booked the flight, which was non refundable to Orlando and said he'd go to the Intensive.

 

We got on the phone together with Joel and Kathy and all was well for a little while. However I told them what he said to me when I came home. I told him I heard he said some things about me to our children and when I talked to my 35 yr. old son, he had the idea that I was in with some fanatical group and that I needed to go back home.

 

I thinked my son for his "opinion" in light of his having very limited information (that given to him by his father only). Also, my son isn't following the Lord, so he doesn't have a spiritual understanding of me.

 

Anyway, when I came home I told my husband I didn't appreciate him talking about me, in a negative way to our children. I didn't say anything to our children about their father and wouldn't ever do that. He plalys dirty. After I said I didn't appreciate what he did, he yelled right back in my face he didn't appreciate what I did either, i.e. leaving for 5 nights.

 

When Joel and Kathy heard that they told him that was emotionally abusive and things got very intense and heated from that point forward. Kathy was telling my husband that everyone, including them, wants to help him but he's too proud to say they know more and he needs to be teacheable and listen. He was angry, stomping around the house, slaming doors, running outside, acting like a 2 yrs. old because he was confronted. Instead of saying, I'll hear you out. Maybe there is something I need to learn here.

 

Joel told me to make him leave, which he started to do, got his suitcase out and threw it around, knocking a hold in the wall (just a little one), stomping, huffing and bellowing................He finally asked me to ask Joel if he had to leave, which I did and Joel said if he attends the intensive, listens to the calls during the week and hug and kissed me tonight, he could stay.

 

He did stay and did come up and hug me very gruffly and kissed angrily. I just wonder if there is any hope for him. He's so proud, arrogant and full of himself. He never even said, glad your home, I missed you, I'm glad you're O.K., maybe I was wrong.....................no just stomping, huffing, anger, frustration....

 

I'm just not sure if an Intensive is going to help a man who is so deeply hurt, wounded and arrested (about age 2 I think), resulting in such rage, walls, lack of empathy, emotion or compassion. I'm just numb to him.

 

Instead of getting hurt this time, I saw it for what it is. I could almost laugh. The fear is gone and I will do whatever the Lord leads me to do to fight to the end (for my marriage and the salvation of this man's soul)

 

Please stand against the rulers of darkness in high places, principalities, , powers, etc. I feel my husband is so bound up inside. Anyway, the call with Joel and Kathy lasted 1 1/2 hours and it was tense. He now says this ministry is abusive to men; that they are men bashers and want men to grovel at women's feet. How sad he believes this. If he only knew how wonderful our relatioonship could be if he would fulfill his role as a godly husband.

 

Thanks for letting me get this out today.

 

Thanks to all of you who are writing words of encouragement. I do feel better back at home. I'm sleeping apart from him and not entering too deeply in conversation with him. He's very manipulative and I don't want to risk allowing him to get the upper hand and regain control over me.

 

God bless,

 

Menomama

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Thank you so much for updating us! It's wonderful what the Lord is doing in your life!

 

Instead of getting hurt this time, I saw it for what it is. I could almost laugh. The fear is gone and I will do whatever the Lord leads me to do to fight to the end (for my marriage and the salvation of this man's soul) This is SO wonderful! I am SO glad!

 

Please stand against the rulers of darkness in high places, principalities, , powers, etc. I feel my husband is so bound up inside. Anyway, the call with Joel and Kathy lasted 1 1/2 hours and it was tense. He now says this ministry is abusive to men; that they are men bashers and want men to grovel at women's feet. How sad he believes this. If he only knew how wonderful our relatioonship could be if he would fulfill his role as a godly husband. So many husbands have said this. I'd say there is still hope.

 

Thanks for letting me get this out today.

 

I'm sleeping apart from him and not entering too deeply in conversation with him. He's very manipulative and I don't want to risk allowing him to get the upper hand and regain control over me. Very wise.

My husband was manipulative with me, too. He could "prove" me wrong every time! If he can change, I believe your husband can too. Even if they ARE "older"! Men are NOT like dogs; they CAN learn new tricks! :)

 

My husband and I are rooting for you.

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Menomama,

 

Keep speaking your truth as much as possible. You are not responsible for the response your husband has, but you are responsible to speak the truth about your marriage, your life, your needs, your desires, your thoughts. Do this when you feel you can. If you feel the need for less interaction until the intensive, feel free to withdraw somewhat, just don't make it your habit. You don't want to withdraw back into not speaking your truth. If your husband is not safe to speak your truth to, write it in a journal or here on the boards and share it with him at a time when he is begins to set his pride aside and becomes broken before the Lord.

 

I'm just not sure if an Intensive is going to help a man who is so deeply hurt, wounded and arrested (about age 2 I think), resulting in such rage, walls, lack of empathy, emotion or compassion. I'm just numb to him.
If we as wives and helpmeets realize that we are/were to be speaking the truth in love and that speaking truth to a selfish husband is the most loving thing we can do, then things will begin to change. It says I love you enough to want you to be all that God has for you to be in life and as a husband.

 

I'm sleeping apart from him and not entering too deeply in conversation with him. He's very manipulative and I don't want to risk allowing him to get the upper hand and regain control over me.

To not speak, means we need to protect ourselves from hurt. When this becomes the rule, rather than the exception it no longer serves to protect us, instead it injures us further. So, when you feel strong enough, speak up.

 

I am in a women's group for wives who have been betrayed by sexual addiction or adultery. In this current group, the average number of years that these women have been married is about 25 years and goes all the way up to 34 years. All of us shared the same dysfunctional teaching that if we love our husbands enough, sacrifice our own lives enough, then we will be loved and cherished in return. All of these women have husbands who not only acted out sexually with pornography or adultery, but also acted out as selfish and self-focussed and prideful individuals who always made their wives feel like they are the cause of all the marriage problems. Not a one felt loved, respected, cherished or valued for the majority of time in their marriages.

 

Holding husbands to their God-given calling, God's command to love their wives like Christ loved the church is the thing that was universally lacking and universally not taught with power or authority in the church. Silence from the pulpit or the over emphasis on "submission" of wives has produced a travesty of pain and injury to Christian marriages everywhere.

 

I know that you have embraced this truth. I reassert this truth for any others reading your string who still sit on the fence about taking a tough love approach with their husbands. I pray that your husband will begin to count the cost: Does he want to be "right" or does he want to be in "relationship". He can be right in his own argument, all the way to divorce court and beyond to the bitter end of his life. Or he can value relationship and family, perhaps in a way that he never has and pursue a marriage as God has designed.

 

You are so brave to begin to shift after being married for close to 40 years. That is so courageous.

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