When your wife YELLS!

Celia · March 3, 2008

This is a post from one of the wives on the forum:

Can I give you some insight from a Christian wife that did get into an affair?

You can read my thread if you want more of my story but here is the short version of it. Husband into porn from the very beginning of our marriage. Three kids, our 2 daughters from previous marriages and we married when they were 4 years old. Lies, and checking out on responsibilities from the beginning of our marriage. I am a classic enabler. I picked up all the slack. Took care of everything myself. Finally reached a point where I couldn't live with the porn, anger, criticism and aloneness anymore and gave him an ultimatum about the porn. It was gut-renching for me because I knew he wouldn't pick more over it. He didn't. Even though I knew that would happen, when it actually did, it sent me into an emotional tailspin. The knowing didn't prepare me for the numbness and helplessness and rejection I felt.

I searched for other ways to enrich my life to make up for that rejection. Got involved in a church outreach program, began witnessing to people at my second job. One young man that I was witnessing to I invited to our church and heard his heart on many occasions while trying to witness to him. I want to add that I never shared my heart about anything. After I found the porn the last time, my husband became violent with me. I was at my second night job and was crying and this young man came to me concerned. It just all came pouring out of me. Yes, I knew I had crossed a line at that point by sharing my heart with another man. Once this man had heard my heart, I found an outlet for the pain and helplessness I felt.

Here is the important part I want you to hear. I broke off contact with this man several times. I knew it was wrong all along. I didn't need my husband or anyone else to tell me my actions were wrong. However, contact with this man went on and off again for 11 months. Why? Every time my husband sent me to that unstable, hurt, lonely and desperate place, I turned back for comfort to the one place I had received it. Obviously I made those choices and ultimately can only blame myself, but I can tell you every single time I entertained that adulterous relationship it was on the heals of attacks from my husband. When you cornered your wife about the soccer game and elicited those negative feelings from her then followed it up by the comment about lying and darkening her soul, emotionally you sent her into a tailspin and literally drove her into that other man's arms for comfort. When you sent her off in the unsafe car and wouldn't let her drive yours, you made a statement to her that you don't care about her. She drove to that soccer game and was met, instead, by a man that seems to care about her. I'm not surprised at all that she stayed out so late after that. She was looking for some love and affirmation away from you because all she got from you was rejection and hurt.

My husband could have quit inflicting pain on me and my affair would have never happened, or at the very least, would have ended in its first moments. All he had to do was stand up, take responsibility for the reason he was out of the house, quit blaming me for his porn and anger. Instead, he inflicted more pain, and worse yet, it was peppered with great loving words sometimes but actions that showed otherwise. As it turns out, I pulled myself out of that situation, no help from my husband -- no love, no affirmation, just more lies, deceipt and hurt. I just lifted the fog from my own eyes and took some very big steps to get back to the person God intended me to be.

I have no doubt you feel pain knowing your wife is sleeping with someone else. I have no doubt my husband felt pain when he found out I had slept with someone else. I share this all with you not to minimize your feelings, but to give you some insight how your actions are right now actually driving your wife in that direction. If you want to give her a safe place to escape this deceptive relationship she is in, set your feelings aside, along with the rejection and digs at her and just give her a comfortable place to come to rest. Make her home her safe haven, not her battlefield.

Celia · March 4, 2008

This was written by JOEL DAVISON...

When a Christian Wife Commits Adultery.

One of the most difficult concepts for a couple to understand is that a Christian wife will not end up in the arms of another man if her husband is being a great husband.

We understand the aversion to this truth if; that is, if you do not understand it fully.

Oftentimes, a confused person will respond by saying, "That can not be true - a Christian wife has to take responsibility for her actions." This argument betrays the speaker that they are not "hearing" what the Word of God is saying. Here is the idea, in a nut shell that we, and the Word of God are presenting:

"In Hosea, even GOD says that he does not hold wives responsible for

committing adultery but he holds husbands responsible for their wives

affairs.

Why? Because the men were committing adultery first or putting

other things above their commitment to God and to their wives.

In other words, they had false idols in their lives. They commit harlotry literally or symbolically and their wives react by doing the same thing. God says it is the husband's fault."

Why is it important to understand this concept? It is only important to understand this if you want your marriage to recover and you want to enter into experiencing an Outrageously Happy Marriage.

We are not interested in helping couples "survive" and feel successful simply because they "stayed married".

Our job is to bring a proper foundation to your understanding so that you can experience an OUTRAGEOUSLY HAPPY MARRIAGE!

If a wronged husband takes the position that his wife "owes" him and must work hard to win back his trust and that her adultery was HER fault, then that couple will never enter into an outrageously happy marriage.

They might survive, but they will not be EXTREMELY happy and completely healed as a couple. Why? Because they do not "view" the wife's adultery correctly; through the "lens" of God's word.

Let's look at Hosea first, and then we will look at a few other supportive texts:

Why do married women commit adultery?

14 'I will not punish your daughters when they commit harlotry,

Nor your brides when they commit adultery;

For the men themselves go apart with harlots,

And offer sacrifices with a ritual harlot.

Therefore people who do not understand will be trampled.

This is very clear. After reading this entire article, you will have to WORK VERY HARD to close your eyes to the truth that God blames a husband when his wife commits adultery.

What I want to point out is the last line of Hosea 4:14 - "People who do not understand will be trampled".

If you do not understand that it is a husband's fault, if his Christian wife commits adultery, then the marriage will never be restored. The couple will be trampled.

If you understood what we understood about marriage, this whole idea would make perfect sense. PLEASE order and read BOTH of our books, if you are stumbling over this idea.

If you read both of our books and re-learn the Word of God concerning marriage, then you will begin to understand what God is saying in Hosea and the other verses we will look at. This is NOT just a concept about adultery; rather it is just a "piece" of the overall understanding of marriage that will cause a couple to enter into an outrageously happy marriage.

Adultery is a "lightning rod". Consider this: In the HUGE selling book, "His Needs/Her Needs", the author claims that BOTH husbands and wives get into affairs BECAUSE their partner does not meet their needs. That book is a HUGE seller.

WE do not believe that a husband gets into affairs because his wife does not meet his needs - we believe a man gets into affairs for recreation and then uses his wife's not meeting his needs as an excuse. We address this again later. However, we DO believe, and the BIBLE TEACHES, that a WIFE gets into affairs BECAUSE of the actions or inactions of her husband.

The bottom line is this: HOW will a marriage get healed after a Christian wife commits adultery?

The beginning of a FULL healing, and the first step to an outrageously happy marriage, is for that wronged husband to fully embrace this concept and say to his wife:

"I fully forgive you for the adultery. It was my fault. If I had been the husband that God called me to be, and that you needed me to be, then you never would have ended up in the arms of another man. Help me to work on me, to become the husband that I need to be."

Yes, a wife MUST get out of her adultery(s) - regardless of whether they are physical or emotional.

(Our definition of emotional adultery: Having "friends" of the opposite sex whom you carry on a relationship with in person, on the phone, via e-mail or IM or text messages - or any combination of these things. It is a relationship in which some or all of these contacts are kept private - and if your spouse knows about it, it is continued over his/her objections. The affair is also kept secret from the wife or husband of the other party to the affair. This relationship meets emotional needs of the wife - she enjoys the friendship, approval, affirmation and respect that she receives from the man that she is in an affair with.)

Normally, a wife who is in an affair will act one of two ways toward her husband: She will be angry and critical, constantly, or she will seem cool and collect, needing nothing from her husband. She does not "bother" him anymore about meeting her emotional needs, because she is getting them met from another man. Why? Because her toddler husband refused to meet her emotional needs for years until he finally broke her.)

The bottom line is that she MUST come out of the affair. That is a given.

However!!!!!! - What most wronged husbands, and many advice givers do not understand, is that this is between his wife and God, and her counselors. HIS job, as her husband, is to RELIEVE her of guilt for GETTING INTO THE AFFAIR in the first place.

How does he do this? Simple: by believing the Word of God.

She would NOT have GOTTEN into this affair, IN THE FIRST PLACE, if he had been a great husband.

How does a MATURE man help his wife to get up and out of the bondage of the affair?

He becomes a pro-active husband, MINISTERING love and Christlikeness to his wife.

He does NOT "upchuck" his hurt feelings on her.

He "owns" that it was HIS issues which pushed her into the affair, so the emotion that he expresses to her is regret for not being the husband that he promised her that he would be on the day that they were married, when he promised: "I promise to love, honor and cherish you".

Look at verse 13 for more clarification:

13 They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops,

And burn incense on the hills,

Therefore your daughters commit harlotry,

And your brides commit adultery.

Note: not every Christian woman will respond to her husband's idolatries and adulteries by ending up in the arms of another man. SOME will.

I thank God that Kathy did not respond to my mistreatment by ending up in the arms of another man.

Yes, I was blessed in this way. It was I, the husband, who committed adultery.

Can we find a place in the Word of God where a wife is blamed for her husband's affair? NO. So, why does a Christian HUSBAND get into adultery? Simple: It is a character flaw. He does not get into an affair in RESPONSE to his wife's indiscretions, as the Word declares that a wife does.

He INITIATES an affair because he wants to. Men get into affairs for recreation. Yes, the same deception of being infatuated with the other woman will attack him, and he may believe he is "in love" with the other woman, but this is always a fantasy.

He got into the affair because of his character flaw. He WANTED to get into an affair, so he set out to get into one.

A Christian wife, on the other hand, does not set out to get into an affair. She is "open game" because of her husband dropping the ball and not treating her like a queen, all the time. She "responds" to a man who showers her with attention, compliments, affirmation, or any combination thereof.

Is this "fair?" No. But "fair" NEVER CREATES an outrageously happy marriage.

Let's look at another scripture:

You shall betroth a wife but another man shall lie with her. (Why?) Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything. Deuteronomy 28:30,47

God is speaking to a Christian man in this verse. He tells him that his wife will end up in the arms of another man - why? Because he did not serve the Lord with joy and gladness of heart.

You will normally not find a woman in adultery that has a husband who was overflowing with joy and gladness of heart at home, BEFORE she got into the adultery.

She is normally married to a man who just lived his life, worked his job, did not meet her emotional needs, had problems with depression, was a work-a-holic, put the kids before his wife, put ministry before his wife (or any other idol) - not necessarily all of these, but a combination of some or all of these things.

God puts the blame directly upon a man when his wife (or soon to be wife in the context) ends up in another man's arms.

Why doesn't God address the wife, blaming HER for the infidelity?

Why does God lay the blame at the feet of the husband?

Why doesn't God blame a wife, ANYWHERE in the bible, when her husband gets into adultery?

How many times have WIVES been blamed for her husband's adultery over the last fifty years, in the Body of Christ? MILLIONS of times!

Hmm. Heavy revy.

Women have been blamed for years, when their husband's have ended up in adultery - but THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT!

On the other hand, some people HATE OUR IDEA WITH A PASSION, that is SOLIDLY BASED ON THE WORD OF GOD - that a husband is the cause of his Christian wife getting into an affair.

This is truly a study in "Life in the Twilight Zone". Women are blamed for years, with NO scriptural backing, and NO ONE GETS ANGRY.

We blame men, WITH scriptural backing, and concerned fellow ministers suggest that we are misunderstanding scripture! It is pretty hard to misunderstand Hosea and Deuteronomy. In a minute, we want to look at something Jesus said that further validates this.

If a wife is IN adultery, is she responsible to get OUT of it?

Absolutely.

Does she have to repent before God?

Absolutely.

Is a wife in danger of judgement, if she were to die in her adultery?

Absolutely.

HOWEVER, the BEGINNING of the affair was her HUSBAND's fault.

To have a successful healing and restoration, ON EARTH, a husband must accept the blame for the BEGINNING of the affair - and he must work toward becoming Christlike; repairing the character flaws in himself that pushed his wife into the arms of another man in the first place.

The biggest flaw in most husbands, is that they fail to love, honor and cherish their wife as the MOST IMPORTANT PERSON on planet earth. They put almost anyone and everything as more important than their wife. This is idolatry in its purest, most simplest form. God gave you ONE wife - and you treat her as if she is supposed to be a tag-a-long or as a secondary "helpmeet" who is called only to make your life easier.

If a wounded couple is going to have an outrageously happy marriage, then a husband MUST accept this premise.

His response to his wife's adultery MUST be one of it being a "wake-up" call.

His response must be to go on a mission: a mission of learning how to be a great husband; a mission of being pro-active in expressing love, commitment and devotion to his wife.

When a husband cannot do this, and begins to consciously or unconsciously "punish" his wife by being moody, angry, acting out of his hurt and disappointment, then he is going to create a horrible environment, and he and his wife will never end up with that outrageously happy marriage.

Matt 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Why did Jesus say,

"Whosoever LOOKS on a woman to lust

for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

- and is therefore guilty of adultery, in God's sight?

ONE reason that Jesus said this is so that a husband can never say,

"My wife committed adultery and

I never committed adultery or idolatry first."

Sorry. You can only say that if you have NEVER looked on a woman in lust since the day you were married. If you claim that, we will sing three refrains of, "Just as I am" so that you can repent of multiplying your sin of lying!

Did Jesus put two and two together? He knew the entire Old Testament like a close friend. He knew it better than anyone who has ever walked on planet earth.

Did he look down the road, 2000 years into the future, and see that WOMEN would be blamed when a HUSBAND got into an affair, and yet men would get VERY ANGRY when the blame was put on men for their wife's affairs?

Jesus knew that Hosea and Deuteronomy made it very clear: that it was a husband's adulteries, idolatries, and general disobedience to God that was the CAUSE of their wife getting into an affar?

Knowing this, did Jesus want to silence the objection from a wronged husband who would say, "I never committed adultery or idolatry and I have been obedient to God"

Did Jesus want to make it very easy for this man to acknowledge, that yes, he had sinned against his wife, by lusting at other woman? (In a marriage, a husband's lust for other women damages his wife as much as a physical affair.)

We think so.

Matt 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; (see #1 below) and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (See #2 below)

Luke 16:18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; (see #3 below) and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. (see #4 below)

Letting two or three witnesses establish a thing: Hosea says that a wife commits adultery IN RESPONSE to what her husband does. Deuteronomy also blames a man when his bride to be commits adultery.

In the two verses above, from Mathew and Luke, Jesus declares a few things:

1. When a man divorces his wife, he CAUSES her to commit adultery. THERE IS NO BLAMES LAID AT THE WIFE's feet.

2. When a man marries a woman who is divorced, then HE commits adultery. Again, the blame in not laid at the feet of the woman.

3. When a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery. There is NO MENTION that his NEW WIFE is held responsible for the adultery.

4. Again, a man is blamed for the adultery - not the wife.

Let us clarify something: Jesus knew that his blood was going to wash sin away. Jesus knew that EVERY BELIEVER, in the future, would need his blood to wash many sins away.

Was Jesus just trying to heap condemnation on men and women who have made major mistakes and wrong decisions concerning marriage? No. We don't believe that. We do believe that he was addressing bad heart issues in the Pharisees on the day. We also believe that he was stepping 2000 years into the future, and clarifying that God MEANT WHAT HE SAID in Hosea and in Deuteronomy.

We believe that the emphasis on the SIN OF THE HUSBAND, in Jesus' words, have a purpose today - and that purpose is to HELP US MEN UNDERSTAND THAT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR MARRIAGES REST ON OUR SHOULDERS.

Yes, a wife NEEDS to respond positively, as her husband makes changes. Consider the letters that you read above. Consider how "Lisa" is giving her heart to her husband after having come out of her affair.

Consider how the wife of "Dead Man" is working so hard to deal with her issues.

Consider how much effort Jennifer had put into giving her husband the chance to win her heart back, even after she had the final divorce papers in hand. Instead of just walking, she let him have a chance. She responded warmly to his changes, while at the same time, "letting him have it" perfectly when he needed it so that he could know what he needed to do to bring healing to her heart. He failed. That is HIS issue. The point is, that Jennifer WAS WILLING to "let" him win her heart back, IF he had truly changed.

Yes, marriage is a two-way street. A husband accepts full responsibility for the failure of it, begins to change and become Christlike, and AS HIS WIFE SEES his efforts, and believes he is sincere, THEN she begins to respond warmly, by slowly opening her heart and giving it back to him.

The goal is having both husband and wife pouring love, affection, attention, mutual respect and mutual honor upon one another.

The goal is team leadership. The goal is mutual submission. The goal is mutual servanthood.

But, HOW DO WE GET THERE?

We get there by the husband going first. He must accept responsibility, begin to change, and begin to INITIATE a happy marriage.

Yes, sometimes a wife will have a hard time responding positively. Work on it. We are here to help you. It took ten or twenty years for a wife to get "broken" (in a bad way) - it may take more than five or six months to bring her to a place of balance, healing, and having a desire to "warmly respond."

Men: Your wife put up with mistreatment for YEARS. Don't be a whiner if your good efforts for a few weeks, months, or even a year does not seem to bring her a miraculous and instantaneous healing and change. (Note: IN MOST WIVES, THE CHANGE IS ALMOST INSTANTANEOUS.) However, each husband has the perfect wife, who has the perfect needs, that require HIM to become Christlike.

If a wife is a bitter wife, who just cannot seem to respond warmly, then we have two newsletters in our InJesus archives that address bitterness in wives. THIS DYNAMIC (of a wife's bitterness causing a delay in the marriage restoration) IS ONLY PRESENT IN ABOUT ONE OUT OF TEN WIVES IN A BAD MARRIAGE.

You cannot enter into a full marriage recovery reading only this series of articles in this newsletter. To understand these things fully, you must read BOTH of our books. (Available at www.GodSaveMyMarriage.com)

This is a COMPLETELY NEW approach to marriage. Yes, many of our message emphasis' are becoming more widely accepted in the church, but probably 80% of the church is still drowning in the failed marriage paradigms of the past.

This is a way of life. Not just a "Oh yeah, I read that book." Ministry. This is a total life transformation that leads to YOUR having an OUTRAGEOUSLY HAPPY MARRIAGE!

Celia · March 5, 2008

Abigail · March 5, 2008

Dory said on another string:

Something Joel speaks of frequently is....There's a HUGE difference between a man who's sad he lost his wife vs. the man who's sad he hurt his wife. One is an example of a man who looks inward and is motivated by his own loss and the other looks outward, motivated by caring for others.

Here's the link: http://www.joelandkathy.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=582&highlight=

Celia · March 12, 2008

Post from Simple Design:

Hello to everyone on the forum! I have never done any kind of forum or anything before, so bear with me.

I guess I'll start with a little bit of an introduction. I am the proud husband of Ornate Design. I've gotten to the point that I don't like using that word (proud) much anymore, but after being married to Ornate for 16.5 years now and knowing all that I have put her through, to still be able to say that we are married is a blessing. That she would put up with me for that long makes me very proud to have her as my wife.

A little over a year ago, Ornate discovered that I had an addiction to internet porn. Needless to say she was devastated. I was completely shocked. I knew that it would hurt her if she found out, but I did not realize the damage it would do. Looking back on it I am sure that I was deluding myself to ease my guilt just a little. For months before the truth came out, I had been praying for God to help me break away from it. I had reached the point that I knew that I was completely addicted and didn't feel that I could walk away on my own. Well God heard my prayer and made sure that the whole truth was exposed. That was all it took for me. Just seeing how much pain it caused Ornate was enough for me to walk away and I haven't looked back since. I don't ever want to be at that place again. Thank you Lord!

Over the last year, I had just wanted to start looking toward the better future we had ahead of us and put the past behind. I read Every Mans Battle per Ornates request, but did not get much from the book at all. Most of what they wrote about just seemed to be things that should be pretty obvious considering why somebody would be reading it in the first place.

Ornate joined the Every Heart Restored forum and made many friends there. Thank you ladies for helping my wife, as I know she helped you, get through that rough time. On the forum, Ornate heard about J & K's material. She asked if I would be willing to hear the material if she ordered it. I told her that I would. After starting to watch the DVD of a seminar that J & K had done, Ornate found out that we should be reading the books first. She ordered those and when they came in we began to listen.

After the first few chapters she approached me and asked how I felt about what we were hearing. I could already see the gleam in her eye knowing that she had found something that could change things for the better in our marriage. I wish I could say that I picked up on that as fast as she did, but I can't. I told her that I could see some truth in what J & K were saying, but that I was reserving judgement until we finished it. What I didn't tell her at the time was that I was totally seething on the inside. I told her later that I pictured us on different sides of a huge mountain with her pulling out a recliner, leaning back and propping her feet up, sipping a margarita, and telling me that if I would climb this mountain and come to her that our marriage could be great. During this time I had been praying about the material, and asking God to reveal the truth to me. It wasn't long until the Holy Spirit smacked me upside the head and said "Hey you idiot, what do you expect? You spent 16 years building that mountain with your selfishness and pride. Get to climbing!"

And so I have. I spent a good deal of time looking back at all of our years of marriage and realized just how much of an @$$ I had been! I'll say it again. I'm sorry babe. I have been doing my best to beat my pride into submission every hour of every day. It hasn't been easy by any means, but I can already see a glimmer of what our marriage can be.

Thank you Joel and Kathy for having the courage to put this teaching into print. I'm looking forward to the day that myself and Ornate can have that OHM.

Bruce

_________________

Proud husband of Ornate Design

Reading Livin it and Lovin it

Previously read first book

Attending intensive in July 08

Celia · March 14, 2008

Dory wrote to Joel:

Quote:

Today in a tone of frustration, Nemo said that he feels like he's losing his "identity" when he has to give up so much of himself for my behalf. When he says he feels manipulated, it hurts incredibly deep down where I feel unwanted. Then I want to make the pain go away by letting him just do what he wants.

Joel writes to Nemo:

Quote:

Hi Nemo,

You have been going through some eye opening stuff with the letters from your friend and the reading you are doing lately. I want to comment on your above comment about "losing your identity" and then Dory's concern that you may frame things as being manipulated.

Whenever you think like that, think of your friend. (D, right?) D maintained his identity. Now he is living in a basement, in bankruptcy, and his heart is torn to shreds over how badly he has hurt his children.. and his heart is re-shredded every time his kids ask him why he cannot come home.

What kind of "identity" do you have, Nemo?

1. You have been a man who has been addicted to pornography.

2. You have not been a man who has sold out to loving his wife like you promised when you married her.. instead, you have fought to maintain your "independence", so you have been a vow breaker.

3. You have lied so many times to Dory in your marriage, that she never knows which end is up. She has no idea on any given day whether you are telling the truth or not?

4. You have (in the past) put playing "games" a priority above your wife, playing games that have made her feel insecure about who you are and what kind of life you want. (Just for your reassurance, Dory puts the game playing in the category of TV for other folks.. not a bad outlet... but only bad if it is put above your marriage and bad if the content is strongly demonic. These are the same concerns a wife would have about a husband who watches too much TV and watches movies that are strongly demonic, sexual or vulgar.). A wife just wants to be included in her husbands world.. not shut out of it because he wants "private time". You are at work all day. That is enough time.. MORE than enough, for a husband and wife to be separated.

5. Spiritually, you have been an agnostic. Had you died, you would have died, rejecting the free gift of eternal life that God paid such a great price to give to you. God wants everyone to go to end up in heaven, with an eternity of fellowship with Him, love, joy, peace, etc. Sadly, he would have seen yet another person whom He loves so very much end up in an eternity of torment in hell with His enemy... instead of with Him. Speaking of this, how are you doing on reading our two books, and reading the Josh McDowell book? It sounds like you are having a genuine wake up to who Jesus is. (For reference sake, the Bible calls an agnostic a "fool".)

The point I am making is this, Nemo. Your identity is one of a man who is addicted to pornography, selfish, a vow breaker, a liar and an agnostic fool.

Yes. Hopefully, you are going to totally lose your identity. Your identity from the past stinks. You need to lose it. Jesus said, "He who tries to save his life ends up losing it, (like D has) and he who loses his life, saves it!" Jesus meant this: "The man who willingly loses "his" identity (porn addict, selfish, lying, vow-breaking fool), feels like he is losing... but when he loses that identity and embraces God's plan for his life, he enters into real living." Jesus said, "I have come to give you life, and life more abundantly."

The manipulation comment. First, your saying that to Dory is manipulation on your part. You know that she hates it when you say that and you play that card to get what you want.

Second, when a child is told, "You have to go to school now." - is he being manipulated to go to school?

When an employer says, "You have to be to work on time." Is the employee being manipulated?

When a doctor says, "You have to quit eating ice cream every night." is he manipulating the patient?

When a policeman says, "You drove over the speed limit.. so now you have to pay a fine or go to court", is he being manipulative?

When I was caught aiding and abetting in an armed robbery, and sent to jail, at 17 years old, was I being "manipulated"?

The bottom line is this. Your wrong identity of yourself and wrong views of marriage have created problems. Someone, and that someone is often Dory, in this case, has to tell you what you are doing that is hurting your marriage and your life. You are not being manipulated by being "forced" to do the right thing.. anymore than a child is being manipulated to go to school or an employee is manipulated to show up at work or a college student is manipulated into studying to get good grades.

It is not wrong for a wife to ask her husband to be a loving, attentive husband, It is wrong for a husband to resent her for this and claim he is being "manipulated." What, you WANT to be a lousy husband who hurts his wife continuously by lies, other forms of deceit and messaging to her in many ways that she is not a valued, first priority in his life over work, games and kids? If you do not WANT to be that type of husband, in your heart of hearts, and you do want to be a great husband, then yes, if doing the right thing makes you feel manipulated at first, then so be it. Your feeling of being manipulated is what is "wrong" in the scenario.. your wife is not "wrong" for asking you to do the right things.

Dying to yourself is dying to that "feeling" that you are being manipulated.

First off, you want to do this as an expression of dedicating your life to the Lord. That is why the bottom line for a man is to be born again and dedicate his life to the Lord. From that foundation, you learn how to become a real man by learning to become the husband that Dory needs you to be.

Kathy and I have been quite thrilled to read the self revealing letters that D wrote to you.

Just ask yourself, ten times a day, "Do I want to end up where D is?" The answer is no. If you do not want to end up like him, then the solution is obvious: Do EVERYTHING different than he did for the years leading up to his current status. How to not end up as a failure? Do the opposite of what they do! I am sure that if D had it to do over again now, he would do things totally different.

This is your opportunity to truly become a man. No one ever told us in school how to become men. This is how it is done. Keep moving in this right direction, Nemo. We are proud of you and the progress you have made in the last couple weeks.

Blessings,

Joel and Kathy

Celia · March 18, 2008

Jonathan,

Rebecca knew that we asked you not to drink. How can you not see that the beginning of this whole scene would have had EVERYTHING to do with her seeing that you were simply disregarding what we had asked of you concerning not drinking. I don't care if it was one beer, or twenty! You still communicated, VERY CLEARLY, that this is going to be done JONATHAN's way, REGARDLESS of what Joel and Kathy suggest.

Again, Jonathan, it is as if you have learned nothing. The hate is what you put into your wife. How many times have we told you that this is what you have been WANTING. You WANT your wife to vent, so that you can shock her by accepting responsibility for your actions, the pain you have caused her, and so that you can minister proactively to her like Christ would. If you had understood what we have been trying to communicate to you at all, this should have been, AGAIN, an opportunity for you to REJOICE. Your wife was spending time with you, and she was VENTING. WHY did she express such strong emotion? She expressed strong emotion because she actually had HOPE.

We tell men, (who are in your shoes: they have lost their wives because they were such bad husbands) over and over, that they need to be worried, when their wife is just "cordial" and "nice". That is a bad day. We tell men, (in your shoes), that they WANT their wives to feel safe to "vent". Your GOAL is to make you wife feel "safe" enough so that she can spew the hate and venom out on you; the very venom and hate that YOU put into her. Sure, she can go and spew it all out to God - and she pJonathanably will - but then you lose. A man does not have a marriage when his wife can deal with all of her emotions between her and God. That is when he has TRULY lost his wife. She no longer needs him at this point. Sadly, many wives (in your wife's shoes) end up going over the deep end - they end up in the arms of another man, in adultery, or they just get so angry and bitter that they walk away from God.

Your wife has run into church, singing on the Praise team, etc. PLUS, at the same time, she has risked getting together with you and TRUSTING US, that you were learning how to be a "safe" husband.

Yes, it may have been painful for you to hear her express her wounding (that you caused!), and it came out of her as hate, but this is not about YOU and YOUR pain. This is/was supposed to be about HER and HER pain. Instead, from your words here, and hers, you became the wife again and began reacting from your pain instead of PRO ACTIVELY ministering to HER pain.

How many months has it been Jonathan? Seven months since she kicked you out? Three months, at least, since you first read our books, and listened in on the conference calls, I have taken time with you personally on the phone, but you are still "stuck" solidly on how YOU feel, and what YOU want. (She talked to me with a mean tone in her voice, waahhh). It is as if you are consumed with yourself; you cannot minister to your wife's pain, but instead, you are expecting HER to minister to your pain. I do believe that this is referred to as Narcistic - I am not a psychologist - we just help men get over themselves, learn how to accept responsibility to agape love their wives, and help them to proactively minister healing to their wives.

However, if you are so "stuck" in your own self, that you can only "react" out of your pain, instead of proactively ministering to your wife out of agape love, then you are right: you are never going to mature into Christlikeness; the end result is that you will just go and find your next adult female victim to marry. You will be Mr. Wonderful until you get married - and then a few days or months into the marriage, it is again going to be "all about Jonathan" and "all about how Jonathan feels." Your poor wife, if she is a Christian, will pJonathanably excuse your actions and selfishness for years, saying, "You have to understand. Jonathan was really hurt in his previous marriage and he is afraid that I am going to treat him like his ex-wife." Yes, you will have succeeded at being the "wife" for a season - and your new wife will be offering you "understanding and agape love" - but then she will break. Why will she break? Because it is YOUR job to offer understanding and agape love. That is not her job.

Oh well, at least you will have a few years of it being "all about Jonathan", and then you can have another angry, hurt and bitter wife. Your solution then? Blame HER for being so angry, "just like Rebecca was", and find yet another victim.

This is where it needs to stop, Jonathan.

You owe your wife a thousand, groveling apologies.

This is NOT about a COUPLE who is working at restoration. WHERE DID YOU GET THAT IDEA? This is about you working to win your wife's heart back, and her having given you a little "crack" to try to do so. Yes, when a couple is working together on a restoration, it is a different story, but that is NOT where you are at, and you knew this completely.

We suggested that husband's write that list of 100 things that they did to hurt their wives - start each line off with "I am sorry for", and be very specific with times and specific things. Did you start this?

Rebecca may never give you another chance to demonstrate that you are maturing into Christlikeness. SHE CAN NEVER HEAL AND MATURE in your presence until YOU take the first step. She may decide to forget you and go on with her life - giving another man the opportunity to minister to her (and getting as much healing as she can on her own from the Lord.) This would be a short term, second best option for her - but in light of your seeming refusal to "receive and minister to her pain", it is her only option.

If you own your issues, and grovel, grovel, grovel - who knows? You MIGHT get a chance to heal or hurt her again. I don't know; let me ask YOU: Would YOU give Jonathan another chance to hurt you if YOU were Rebecca? She just did what Joel and Kathy asked. She opened up to you. She vented. We don't care that her venting came out in hatred. That is better than her ending up in adultery. You should be rejoicing. You had a GOLDEN opportunity - an opportunity to maturely minister to her pain. I hope, I pray, that this was not your last opportunity. However, we can not ask Rebecca to take the risk again. This was WAY too painful.

If she comes to that place in her heart; which will only happen because you pick yourself up and take responsibility for hurting her yet again, then you will want to get on your knees and thank God for the wife he gave you - and thank HER, for giving your marriage yet ANOTHER chance.

I may be talking total fantasy. You may have just blown if for the last time. I like to think that you could own your issues enough, apologize enough, write that list of 100 things enough, serve her enough (by YES, cutting her grass - even though YOU think that her 18 year old son should do it), and lay your life down for her enough, that she would take a deep breath and give you another chance to put what you CLAIM you want to do into action. (You have claimed that you want to bring healing to her and restoration to the marriage - and DON'T fluff that healing off onto God. YOU hurt her, YOU bring the healing, with God's help. It is YOU that GOD has to work on, and YOU bring the healing to her.) Like I said, if she disconnects from you completely, and gets healed by God, independent of you, then "game over." You will be STUCK in your immaturity, and she will go on and just try again with another man. That man will have to grow up and mature - and Rebecca will be hurt again - and yes, even that will be your fault. Why? Because YOU decided to drop the ball now.

This is maturity, healing and Christlikeness that we are talking about and trying to get you over into Jonathan. It is not easy. If it were, then every marriage would be happy; every wife would be a happy wife; (every CHRISTIAN couple, is what I am referring to.)

It hurts us when a man we have tried to teach blows it so badly and acts as if they have not understood a single word we have spoken and written - but we are still reaching out to YOU proactively. We are not telling you that we are done with you. We WANT you to do the right thing. I have just spent all of this time writing this to you to push you to make the right choice. It is now. Right now. You have to choose to do the right thing.

We love you, and we love Rebecca.

We have confidence that you CAN do the right thing, IF you so choose.

Blessings,

Joel and Kathy

Celia · March 19, 2008

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject:

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I'm sorry to hear to that! We'll miss you on the call...

I can identify with not feeling perfect also, but I found a rather interesting nugget the other day...

You know that verse (Matt. 5:4 where Jesus says "...Therefore you are to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect..."?

How in the world could He ask us to do that if it weren't possible? I am a father of two little boys, and I try very hard not to ask them to do things that they cannot do. That would be cruel and mean to ask of them, and then discipline them for not being able to do something I knew they couldn't do. I thought, "God isn't like that...He wouldn't say that unless it was doable"...

I found out that the word "perfect" in that verse (and a couple others along the same lines) is the greek word "Teleios" (Strong's 5046), which can be translated "self-sacrificing character", or "having reached its end" or "a full-grown, mature adult".

That was such great news!! God wants me to mature into an adult man who has reached the end (of myself) and is self-sacrificing (in a good way) in my character, just like He is...

It doesn't mean that I won't screw up anymore, or that I'll live a completely sinless life like I thought before. When Jesus said to be perfect, He knew that we couldn't be sinless in ourselves, but He came and made a way for us to be sinless in Him. Then He told us to be "self-sacrificing in our character" just like our heavenly Father is toward us. Becoming more Christ-like means that we'll mimic our Father just like my little boys mimic everything I do...

So, there you go...you are becoming "perfect"...

-- Joseph

_________________

Celia · March 20, 2008

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject:

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Not too much has happened since my last post, but a couple small things...

I've been able to call and talk to the kids every night/day this week, and I am going to pick them up to spend the night with me tonight (yeah!)...

I called to talk to them last night, and when Christine answered the phone, she put me on speakerphone so I could talk to the kids. She usually asks them if they want to talk to me, and then if they do, she gives them the phone and doesn't say much to me. Last night she put me on speaker and told me all about what the kids had done yesterday, and told me that they were playing a game where my four-year-old was pretending to be a short-order cook, and was writing her food order down on a checkbook! She seemed really happy and light, and we all talked and laughed together for almost 20 minutes. I was really grateful for the time!

On Tuesday, on the men's call, Joel was wrapping up a conversation with a couple and the wife was sobbing on the phone when we (the guys on the call) joined the line. After listening to them talk for a little while, and hearing the pain and hopelessness in that wife's voice, I had tears streaming down my face... I realized that Christine had been like that on the phone with people not too long ago, and I wasn't on the other end of the line to hear her tears. I didn't hear her sobbing like that wife was, and I didn't hear her heart open and bleeding like that. It absolutely took my breath away...

I am so thankful that Joel allowed us to hear that, I need to remember the depth of the pain I caused Christine. I am also thankful that Joel allowed me to share a little of my story with the wife on the call. I almost couldn't believe the words that were coming out of my mouth. I had no fear about admitting to the lies and deceit I had put Christine through for so long, and I heard myself telling her that she should not believe what her husband says until she knows in her heart that it's true. I also said that the only hope for her husband to ever change is for her to divorce him, and do it quickly. I shared with her that I am convinced now that Christine divorcing me was my only chance, and that Christine loved me enough to make the hardest decision of her life...to save mine, and her's and our kids.

I am no longer miserable like I was...and I am no longer "in pain" over what I have to go through. I will never be the same again, and I owe that to her... She is an amazing woman, and I love her so much...

Thank you all for letting me share on here, and for all your encouragement!

-- Joseph

Celia · March 26, 2008

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:48 am Post subject:

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Ha ha. These last few posts made me laugh my tail off. I just thought I should reply since this is my string.

Okay, for any ladies out there who are reading this, let one thing be clear: I am on this forum because I am a selfish, controlling, manipulative jerk! I don't want to speak for the other guys on here, but I don't think any of us would be on here unless we all shared these character defects.

Someone could read the last few pages of my string and think, "Wow, this guy's really got himself together. He's got such a good heart for doing what he's doing." Let me be the first to say "BS!" Go back to the beginning. I have been an absolutely treacherous man. I had a 10 month affair in my own house with someone who was living with us, right under my wife's nose and right down the hall from where my children slept. Anyone still think I'm a great guy? Okay, take away the adultery for a minute. It never happened. Guess what? I'm still a jerk! For the last several years of my marriage I was selfish and controlling and manipulative. I didn't hear my wife's heart, nor did I have a desire to. I only wanted to serve myself and my carnal nature. The affair was an exclamation point to the path I had been following for years.

In the aftermath of my affair being discovered, I wallowed in self-pity and thrashed around like an emotional wreck. I was looking for someone, anyone to say, "It's okay Scott. You're a great guy. You just messed up. We all mess up." And I found several of those people and they became my new best friends. I LOVED it when people would tell me, "You know, your wife needs to realize that she played a part in this too. You obviously wouldn't have done this if she was being a good wife." I read five books about recovering from affairs. Every one of them gave me some sort of an out or excuse. Every one of them talked about how the wife will need to admit to her part in the affair.

And you know what happened during all this time while I was getting this feedback? Everything got worse! Krista became even more hurt, angry, and bitter than in the beginning. I wasn't owning up to anything. I was still being a childish and selfish jerk who didn't want their to be any consequences for what I had done. And so I continued in my self-pity and childishness while everything continued to slide down hill.

When I found J&K, I got a firm slap in the face. And it hurt. Bad. But I chose to seek help through their ministry instead of the countless other "restoration" ministries because they were the only ones who forced me to take a look in the mirror and admit to being selfish, manipulative, controlling, and childish. Every other ministry I found had a "solution" that allowed for a surface restoration. And I think in my heart of hearts I knew that if Krista took me back I would eventually end up being the same jerk I was before. No, I need true internal change.

One of the major dangers for the guys on this forum is that we will have our ego stroked by someone. Someone will come along and say "you're so great. Any woman would love to have a husband like you." That is exactly what I don't need to hear. I'll admit, it feels great. But for the last several years every time Krista would lash out at me I would always say, "You know what, I'm a really good husband. There's a lot of women out there who would kill to have a husband like me!" Totally ego driven. Totally selfish. And I really shouldn't be hearing those words from anyone right now. Even if you took the whole possibility of an emotional connection out of it, it would still cause me to backslide in my journey to lay down my life for Krista and serve her in Christlikeness. Because it would plant that thought in my brain. I would think, 'You know, I really am a good guy. I'm doing everything I can to change and to save this marriage and Krista's just bound and determined to get rid of me. Most men just take off after something like this, but I'm sticking around trying to make it work. She should be thankful I'm doing this. She should be working on this marriage like I am.'

That kind of thought pattern is not Christlike, and it doesn't validate Krista's feelings or allow me to experience real internal change. I do love being encouraged by Joel, and I truly believe God is working a miracle to restore my marriage--in time. But as I die to myself I have to get rid of the old thought patterns of pride and ego. I can't walk around patting myself on the back. Everything that I am, everything I do, everything I think, must reflect an honest desire to lay down my life for Krista and my daughters. It must reflect an honest desire to be Christlike. It must reflect an honest desire to bring healing to my family. It must reflect an honest desire to make up for all the pain I've caused.

Final thought: I am the worst of sinners. And I need to keep that mindset and walk daily in humility and service to my wife.

"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Chris Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I AM THE WORST. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, THE WORST OF SINNERS, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life." I Tim. 1:15-16

Oh, by the way, I adore my wife. She is the most beautiful woman I've ever known, and the best mom I could ever pray for for my daughters. If our marriage is restored, which I believe it will be, it will be a truly miraculous event. And a testimony of the unimited patience and mercy of God and his desire to heal what is broken. And it will also be a testimony against satan and his foolishness. He's messing with the wrong family.

Scott

_________________

happierwifehere · March 28, 2008

I posted this on another thread, but was suggested to post here also:

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:

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Kiwi, W2H,

I just want to ditto your experiences with venting. I have at times worried I was going overboard, but there really is something about having your husband sit there when everything in his body tells him to run or fight, just listening to you, calming your fears, and apologizing for the massive amount of hurts he's caused.

As Kathy said in the Bradenton DVD, once you receive closure on the hurt, it's healed and it's like you almost immediately forget about it.

Yesterday morning Happier Husband asked me if I was ok with what we had talked about the night before. I knew I'd vented my hurt to him about something, but for the life of me I couldn't remember what it was. I said, "Well I must be healed of it, because I'm at a total loss right now as to what exactly we were talking about."

Once our husbands really get that we gain closure and healing if they'll just listen, receive, apologize, and love, it gets easier for them to die to their sense of insecurity and inadequacy, and sit there to endure it all.

I know your husband posted recently about that, W2H, and Happier Husband confirmed the same thing the other night. They have the expectation that we are repulsed and disgusted with them when we are venting, and that we see them in a worse light than we ever have before. But if they just receive all of our hurt, the opposite is true. We feel continually more love for them. It's a wonderful design God has!

Celia · April 5, 2008

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject:

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Well, I am just that man Gracey was talking about and for all of you men that think "I am the head of this houshold" come on...get a grip..get a grip on God. He is the almighty one that pulled me out of the grasp of Satan and back into the word of God. I was that workaholic, drug addict, liar ect. I thought if I had provided for my family, there was nothing left but to kick back and mow the yard and man was I in for a surprise. I never knew myself how much she really did for me. She was the spiritual one and I was along for the ride. I cannot say enough about her and her willingness to keep our family together and I just blew it!!! I am soooo grateful to her that another chance has been bestowed upon me. God's grace has followed me throughout these past two years and helped me with my recovery. I was in very hard addiction for 6 months and never thought of ever finding a way to do it by myself. God knew that I wanted to quit and He found that way. It wasn't a pretty sight either. I lost my family my home, my job and my dignity. I embarrassed everyone, but all in all, she knew what was good for the family and I agreed to her wishes. It has been a long road, but God has been driving and I have been the co-pilot.

To all of you macho men, get on your face and beg His forgivness. God will forgive you but sometimes , if you wait too long, the best thing in your life, won't.

In Him

Patrick

_________________

DIVORCED, WORKING ON RECOCILIATION

READING BOOKS AND READING DVD'S

MENTORING WITH CONNECTING RELATIONSHIPS

Celia · April 10, 2008

Phone sex? Personal preference between a married couple. Kathy and I never did it, but that does not make it wrong. Husband getting off while having phone sex with his wife? I would suggest that this is not masturbation. It is a couple having sex in a way they enjoy.

Husband masturbating with his wife - like lying in bed together? If she is actively participating by watching/playing around with him while he does/caressing him - and if this is just a SMALL part of their bedroom fun? Again, personal preference, and would not be considered masturbation. It would be considered a couple having sex in a way they both enjoy.

Wife MB while husband watches? Woo hoo! I don't think there is a red-blooded male who would not LOVE this! Makes a man think that his wife is just as hot and heavy for sex as we are! A man's ultimate fantasy! (in NORMAL men - the guy who never initiates sex with his wife might not get any kick out of this at all.)

Man getting himself off on his own? Never acceptable - because of the release of Oxytocin and him bonding with himself, not to mention that no man on the planet, I doubt, would masturbate successfully, by himself, and keep his mind ONLY on his wife. Don't play russian roullette with this. There are 99 bullets and only ONE empty chamber.

What a couple does, sex wise, together, is personal preference. As we say in Chapter 20 of book one: no videos. no porn. no third parties. Outside of those obvious sins, what a couple decides to do that is mutually enjoyable is 100% personal preference - and no one has a right to inflict their conscience on others.

_________________

Joel of Joel and Kathy

Celia · April 25, 2008

Celia · April 30, 2008

When you read the books, you want to look for change in you.

First you change - becoming Christlike. A woman does not file for divorce from a wonderful, Christlke, Godly man who laid his life down for her in loving her in their marriage. That just does not happen. So, first step, is to isolate what you were doing in the marriage that hurt her.

Second, healing begins to come to your wife. As you begin to recognize what you did that hurt her in the marriage, then you will be able to validate her heart. This will erase her need to remind herself what a lousy husband you were. Why? Because you are recognizing it and telling her.

Third, your becoming Christlike and her getting healed often willl result in a marriage restoration.

Your four months of working out of town was tantamount to abandonment. I am not saying that you meant to abandon her. You had to earn a living. However, a marriage is not meant to be lived seperately. SO, the EMOTIONAL affect on your wife was one of being abandoned.

There are all types of possibilities that could have happened during those months.

1. You could have been into porn and/or self-gratification.

2. She could have expressed hurt over you being gone, with your reply being, "But I HAVE to WORK."

3. She could have gotten into an emotional affair with another man - or more.

Any combination of these things, in addition to other hurts through the years, would logically result in her closing her heart to you and wanting to cut the cord.

Were you spiritually abusive in the past years? ie: Did you tell her that you were the head of the home and she needed to submit to you?

Were you emotionally abusive? ie: ignoring her needs and telling her that her feelings were wrong in the marriage?

Were you verbally abusive? Mentally abusive? ie: calling her names. Insinuating that she was an idiot?

So much of this goes on in so many marriages - and they fly beneath the radar of most men. We are pretty clueless in so many ways.

These are the type of self-analysis that you need to do.

Then, you need to consider the pain that your wife felt as she endured these things. You have to FEEL her pain, and feel her pain more than you feel your pain.

You have to take the attitude that, "If she needs money from me, and a divorce, then that is what she deserves after what she lived through."

Your mindset should be to fully support her and the kids, mentally and emotionally and financially - to the best of your ability.

Think about how hurt SHE is.

HER DREAMS came crashing down.

SHE WANTED a HAPPILY EVER AFTER marriage.

We have a men's group - yes it costs, but not much. The forum here is FREE, by the way, and you can see how much free help you are already getting from Dori, Judy and us. Others will also help. You can also spend $100 per month on our phone men's mentoring group. It is SPECIFICALLY for men in your shoes.

We are good at this. We can help you to turn this around.

Give us a call if you would like to join that Men's Phone Mentoring group. 386-206-3128.

Father God, I pray for our new friend. Help him to see the reality of the things that we have written here. Help him to see what he did in the marriage to cause this to happen. Help him to be willing to understand and learn these things so that he can become Christlike, bring healing to his wife's heart, and cause a restoration in his marriage - in that order. In JESUS' name! AMEN!!!

_________________

Joel of Joel and Kathy

Celia · May 8, 2008

What you focus on gets your attention.

The "pop" theory has not benefitted me. If it benefits someone else, then we don't want to mess up something that is helping them.

For me, considering the pop concept makes me focus on me instead of on my wife. It makes me suddenly worried about me - and the way to maturity is not focusing on me.

For me, I am so focused on Kathy - making her number one in my life, realizing that if I get attracted to someone else is going to hurt her; realizing how OBVIOUS it is to everyone in proximity when a man is looking a woman over - and I don't ever want to be noticed checking another woman out like I did for years - these are the things that help me to stay focused on Kathy.

For me, realizing that I don't need to prove to myself that I am interested in other women and I don't have to prove to myself that other woman are attracted to me - this is what brought me the victory.

For me; I never picked up the book, "Every Man's Battle". It just never rang true to me on the title. When a man deals with his issues, he does not live a daily battle against these things.

With lusting, it seems that the more you focus on not doing it, the more that a person ends up doing what they are trying not to do.

It is like saying, "DO NOT PICTURE A PINK ELEPHANT IN YOUR MIND!"

I am not criticizing Every Man's Battle. I have not read it. I have simply never been inclined to read it; the men who have come to us with bad marriages because of porn have all read it for the most part - and it did not help them; and the concepts that some have shared such as the "pop" idea don't seem to be helpful because they focus on the guy instead of getting him to focus on his wife.

I am just sharing what is going on as I consider these things. The focus on the "bounce" and the "pop" - are taking my mind away from making Kathy my focus; making sure that she is the only object of my sexual interest; and floating her boat.

I am thinking to myself, as I have observed my own thought patterns for the last day, "no wonder so many guys read Every Many's Battle and are not helped." My guess is though that MANY men have been helped by the book; please understand that I am not dishing the book. As I said, I have not read it. Nothing anyone has ever said about it has made it seem like a valuable book to read though, either. Because I have not read it though, I may be 100%, completely wrong.

As for me and my house, I just want to focus on lusting after Kathy! Other women fail to compete because I don't get to see them naked and sleep with them! They are all just a fantasy - so they have no power. The only power they had in the bad days was to give me a "pop" of feeling that "Yes, I AM attracted to lots of women! That 'show me yours, I will show you mine' did not mean anything! See, I am completely, totally normal. I like women, and women like me!" When I dealt with that issue and realized that yes, I am totally, completely, 100% straight and 100% turned on by my wife, then that compulsion lost it's power.

So, focus on your wife. Lust over her. Picture her naked. Pursue her sexually all the time; rub her butt, playfully put your hand down the top of her shirt, just enough to tease. Whistle at her when she walks away. STARE at her as she walks away and DRINK IN the view. Look at her as much as possible and FEAST on the view. She is your wife. God wants you to live being consumed with HER. Focus on her, and the other distractions fade away.

Hey there.. Kathy just walked by... hubba, hubba.... gotta go follow after her...

_________________

Joel of Joel and Kathy

Celia · May 17, 2008

To all men whose wife won't vent.

Your wife knows you. She will instinctively know when it is safe for her to vent. It's up to you to become safe.

Venting is her expressing her true heart feelings. Women have been taught and trained to not expose their true heart felt feelings to their husbands. The church encourages this kind of behavior to women. Husbands themselves in their own selfish immaturity silence a wife from sharing her true heart by rejecting her efforts when she tried.

So, give it time and focus on becoming a safe place for her to do so. Even when a wife finally thinks that she is safe a husband will find it hard to hear her. You think that it will be easy and you can handle it until she actually begins to share her heart with you.

_________________

Viewed DVD seminar, read both books, husband heard my heart, I received healing.

He loves me.

OUTRAGEOUSLY HAPPILY MARRIED!

(The wife of Humblepie) He is wonderful!

Celia · May 18, 2008

Celia · May 29, 2008

Hi Men,

I want to share with you something that, as a guy, you may not be fully aware of it's power to trigger a place of DEEP PAIN in your wife's heart.

Summertime may have an entirely NEW MEANING to wives who've discovered that their husbands have not been faithful to them ~ whether it's been because of an actual skin-to-skin affair, or because you've chosen to lust, view porn, live in a fantasy-world & self-gratifying, it doesn't matter.

Summertime carries with it the painful reality that MANY young girls/women, who do not adhere to the virtue of MODESTY & who have, for the few months prior, kept their "secret parts" @ least more of a secret, are now wearing MUCH LESS CLOTHING , exposing parts of their body that they have no business putting "on display".

Summertime also brings with it an increase in outdoor get-togethers, BBQ's, graduation parties, weddings/receptions, family reunions, etc. Men - you MUST understand that if you have betrayed your wife's heart, attending these gatherings with the vast array of people in attendance, has now become a VERY SCARY THING for your wife, instead of the relaxing, enjoyable social-gathering that it used to be!

Instead of being able to relax, kick back with friends/family to catch-up, laugh & talk, your wife now feels like she CONSTANTLY needs to be on the defense, scouting out any & all other women who are around, seeing how they are dressed, how they're carrying themselves, and based upon those facts, she then assesses "the risk" that she feels it presents to her & also to YOU - the husband who, in the past (hopefully it's behavior that's in the PAST!) would've taken an opportunity like an outdoor-party (or whatever the scenario was) to indulge his sexual appetite by looking lustfully upon the scantily clad women who were within range of her husband's sight.

Men ~ PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY!!!! This is not an opportunity to tell your wife that she is insecure, paranoid, or that she just needs to "chill out!" Instead, this is an opportunity to show her what you're learning in your daily journey to die to your fleshly, arrested self & TAKE ACTION to SHINE YOUR CROWN, in ways that minister to your wife's heart, & in ways that are also apparent to those around you.

You MUST begin by validating your wife's fears & insecurities. In order to do this, you will need to pay very close attention to your wife's body-language, her facial expressions & her overall demeanor. If you sense that she is feeling uptight (which she can go from 0 ---> FRANTIC in mere milliseconds!!) there are a few things that you can immediately do, that will offer affirmation & validation to your wife, as well as reassure her that you are paying attention ONLY to her & that you are interested in being in-tune with her emotions.

1. If you are sitting/standing next to her, & you sense that she's been triggered, be a man by putting your arm around her, lovingly, & if she is comfortable with P.D.A. (public displays of affection), then gently & sincerely give her a kiss.

WHATEVER YOU DO - DO NOT ACT LIKE THIS IS PAINFUL OR EMBARRASSING FOR YOU! THIS WILL ONLY SERVE TO WOUND YOUR WIFE, EVEN DEEPER THAN SHE'S ALREADY BEEN WOUNDED BY YOU!!!! AND CONVERSELY, PLEASE DO NOT ACT LIKE YOU DESERVE A MEDAL OF HONOR WHEN YOU DO THIS, BECAUSE THAT ATTITUDE WILL ALSO GO VERY UNAPPRECIATED BY YOUR WIFE! MAINTAINING THE ATTITUDE OF A HUMBLE MAN - i.e. "THIS IS WHAT I LONG TO DO IN ORDER TO HEAL MY WIFE'S HEART & TO BE THE MAN THAT SHE NEEDS ME TO BE..." IS A REALLY GREAT PLACE TO START!

1a. While you are out & among friends/other people, if you are not in close proximity to your wife, but she is within your line of sight, & you're able to sense that she's possibly been triggered (and if you can see her, you SHOULD be able to read her well enough that you know how to determine what body language she displays when she's been triggered!), then IMMEDIATELY - no matter what you're doing, or who you're engaged in a conversation with - politely excuse yourself & walk over to where she is & execute the 1st step outlined above.

She may not verbally express her gratitude that you were paying attention enough to notice, from afar, but take it from a woman, SHE WILL NOTICE YOUR WILLINGNESS TO INITIATE & SHE WILL FILE THAT AWAY IN THE ROLODEX OF HER HEART!!!!

Remember also, when you're heart is right & you are becoming the husband that she needs you to be, that you will naturally do the things that your wife needs you to do, in order to bring her reassurance & security, without the expectation of a kudos, a pat on the back, or even a verbal "thanks". Remember, you are NOT doing this to "win brownie points" with your wife, but the mature & godly motivation is that you are doing whatever it takes to HEAL your wife from the wounds that YOU inflicted upon her by your immature & arrested choices.

Knowing that you are growing & changing into a husband that is dead to self & willing to do whatever is necessary to "shine your crown" will bring a whole new level of "reward" to you, by way of a healed, secure & grateful wife!

The key here is that your wife feels CONFIDENT in your love for her - no matter if 100 Miss America's were to walk in front of you - if she knows that she is & always will be THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN IN THE WORLD to you - hands down - then, as J&K say many times in their books, you will have a wife who will brag about you to all of her girlfriends & before you know it, the rumor will be all over town - that you are an AMAZING HUSBAND, one that all of your wife's girlfriends love & wish they had, while all of their husbands despise you b/c their wives are coming home & asking them "why can't you be more like _____'s husband?"

Just to recap:

* Summer presents a whole host of possible triggers for your wife that you may be completely CLUELESS about!

* When out in public, stay connected with your wife & regularly show her affection, so that you are not just doing this when she NEEDS it. Make this a habit, a way-of-life!

* When it becomes obvious to you that your wife has been triggered, drop whatever you're doing to come alongside of her & give her whatever it is that she needs @ that moment, to truly feel like she is your WORLD & do NOT be too "macho" to do this - no matter who else is around! Your wife may not pay an immediate verbal "thanks" to you @ that moment, but she WILL indeed file it away in her heart's Rolodex!!!

* Work hard to STUDY & LEARN your wife's cues! Become fluent in knowing her body-language, both when she's happy & feels safe & also when she has been triggered & feels like a scared little girl in a very unsafe world.

* Learn to ANTICIPATE a potential trigger even before your wife does! A woman's "radar" is CONSTANTLY scanning, 360 degrees, over all people, over all situations! Please be VERY careful here though: If you are constantly scanning a crowd of people, so as to not stop & zoom in on any one person, you have to do this with skill, or your wife may perceive/wonder if you're not actually scanning the crowd in order to "find" someone to look @ who will bring you aesthetic pleasure! This would NOT be a good thing for you husbands! Just be aware, pay attention & if you can learn to assess & anticipate potential triggers before your wife even does, you will climb a LOT of rungs on the ladder of her heart!

* Wounded women will not be nearly as enthusiastic or excited about going places (especially in the Summer) with you, as she once used to be, when she perceived that her world was safe. Understand that this is something that you "bought & paid for" with your actions. Be willing to forgo a planned event, if your wife becomes too anxious about "what may be", before you even leave your house. Talk with her candidly beforehand about the upcoming event. Ask her how she's feeling, & reassure her of your love for her & reiterate to her your "plan of action" so that she can gain complete confidence that you won't be "flying by the seat of your pants" when (not IF, but WHEN) another woman walks by & beckons for your eyes & your attention. A well-planned man is a happy man!

* No matter how you're feeling about going to a fun family BBQ, be willing to submit to how your wife is feeling at the moment. When she shares with you that she's feeling anxious or apprehensive about "what may happen", do everything within your power to VALIDATE those feelings of fear & anxiety! Own up to the reason that she's even feeling this way. She doesn't like it anymore than you do, but there is such TREMENDOUS POWER in the act of validation & you may be very surprised just how quickly your wife may turn from a worried, anxious mess, into a peaceful, joyful & secure woman!

* Be that SAFE MAN that she always thought she was married to, but now hopes against hope that she'll ever have again. The world is a very unsafe place in which to venture out into, but even in the midst of such worldliness, YOU can be a SAFE PERSON FOR YOUR WIFE & you'll be amazed @ how much difference in her world that will make!

_________________

Wen

Married to "God's Mighty Soldier"

Celia · May 30, 2008

Phone sex? Personal preference between a married couple. Kathy and I never did it, but that does not make it wrong. Husband getting off while having phone sex with his wife? I would suggest that this is not masturbation. It is a couple having sex in a way they enjoy.

Husband masturbating with his wife - like lying in bed together? If she is actively participating by watching/playing around with him while he does/caressing him - and if this is just a SMALL part of their bedroom fun? Again, personal preference, and would not be considered masturbation. It would be considered a couple having sex in a way they both enjoy.

Wife MB while husband watches? Woo hoo! I don't think there is a red-blooded male who would not LOVE this! Makes a man think that his wife is just as hot and heavy for sex as we are! A man's ultimate fantasy! (in NORMAL men - the guy who never initiates sex with his wife might not get any kick out of this at all.)

Man getting himself off on his own? Never acceptable - because of the release of Oxytocin and him bonding with himself, not to mention that no man on the planet, I doubt, would masturbate successfully, by himself, and keep his mind ONLY on his wife. Don't play russian roullette with this. There are 99 bullets and only ONE empty chamber.

What a couple does, sex wise, together, is personal preference. As we say in Chapter 20 of book one: no videos. no porn. no third parties. Outside of those obvious sins, what a couple decides to do that is mutually enjoyable is 100% personal preference - and no one has a right to inflict their conscience on others.

_________________

Joel of Joel and Kathy

dory · June 3, 2008

The Meaning of Sex in Marriage

Albert Mohler

The Christian worldview must direct all consideration of sexuality to the institution of marriage. Marriage is not merely the arena for sexual activity, it is presented in Scripture as the divinely-designed arena for the display of God's glory on earth as a man and a wife come together in a one-flesh relationship within the marriage covenant. Rightly understood and rightly ordered, marriage is a picture of God's own covenantal faithfulness. Marriage is to display God's glory, reveal God's good gifts to His creatures, and protect human beings from the inevitable disaster that follows when sexual passions are divorced from their rightful place.

The marginalization of marriage, and the open antipathy with which many in the culture elite approach the question of marriage, produces a context in which Christians committed to a marriage ethic appear hopelessly out of step with the larger culture. Whereas marriage is seen as a privatized contract to be made and unmade at will in the larger society, Christians must see marriage as an inviolable covenant made before God and man, that establishes both temporal and eternal realities.

Christians have no right to be embarrassed when it comes to talking about sex and sexuality. An unhealthy reticence or embarrassment in dealing with these issues is a form of disrespect to God's creation. Whatever God made is good, and every good thing God made has an intended purpose that ultimately reveals His own glory. When conservative Christians respond to sex with ambivalence or embarrassment, we slander the goodness of God and hide God's glory which is intended to be revealed in the right use of creation's gifts.

Therefore, our first responsibility is to point all persons toward the right use of God's good gifts and the legitimacy of sex in marriage as one vital aspect of God's intention in marriage from the beginning.

Many individuals -- especially young men -- hold a false expectation of what sex represents within the marriage relationship. Since the male sex drive is largely directed towards genital pleasure, men often assume that women are just the same. While physical pleasure is certainly an essential part of the female experience of sex, it is not as focused on the solitary goal of genital fulfillment as is the case with many men.

A biblical worldview understands that God has demonstrated His glory in both the sameness and the differences that mark men and women, male and female. Alike made in the image of God, men and women are literally made for each other. The physicality of the male and female bodies cries out for fulfillment in the other. The sex drive calls both men and women out of themselves and toward a covenantal relationship which is consummated in a one-flesh union.

By definition, sex within marriage is not merely the accomplishment of sexual fulfillment on the part of two individuals who happen to share the same bed. Rather, it is the mutual self-giving that reaches pleasures both physical and spiritual. The emotional aspect of sex cannot be divorced from the physical dimension of the sex act. Though men are often tempted to forget this, women possess more and less gentle means of making that need clear.

Consider the fact that a woman has every right to expect that her husband will earn access to the marriage bed. As the Apostle Paul states, the husband and wife no longer own their own bodies, but each now belongs to the other. At the same time, Paul instructed men to love their wives even as Christ has loved the church. Even as wives are commanded to submit to the authority of their husbands, the husband is called to a far higher standard of Christ-like love and devotion toward the wife.

Therefore, when I say that a husband must regularly "earn" privileged access to the marital bed, I mean that a husband owes his wife the confidence, affection, and emotional support that would lead her to freely give herself to her husband in the act of sex.

God's gift of sexuality is inherently designed to pull us out of ourselves and toward our spouse. For men, this means that marriage calls us out of our self-focused concern for genital pleasure and toward the totality of the sex act within the marital relationship.

Put most bluntly, I believe that God means for a man to be civilized, directed, and stimulated toward marital faithfulness by the fact that his wife will freely give herself to him sexually only when he presents himself as worthy of her attention and desire.

Perhaps specificity will help to illustrate this point. I am confident that God's glory is seen in the fact that a married man, faithful to his wife, who loves her genuinely, will wake up in the morning driven by ambition and passion in order to make his wife proud, confident, and assured in her devotion to her husband. A husband who looks forward to sex with his wife will aim his life toward those things that will bring rightful pride to her heart, will direct himself to her with love as the foundation of their relationship, and will present himself to her as a man in whom she can take both pride and satisfaction.

Consider these two pictures. The first picture is of a man who has set himself toward a commitment to sexual purity, and is living in sexual integrity with his wife. In order to fulfill his wife's rightful expectations and to maximize their mutual pleasure in the marriage bed, he is careful to live, to talk, to lead, and to love in such a way that his wife finds her fulfillment in giving herself to him in love. The sex act then becomes a fulfillment of their entire relationship, not an isolated physical act that is merely incidental to their love for each other. Neither uses sex as means of manipulation, neither is inordinately focused merely on self-centered personal pleasure, and both give themselves to each other in unapologetic and unhindered sexual passion. In this picture, there is no shame. Before God, this man can be confident that he is fulfilling his responsibilities both as a male and as a man. He is directing his sexuality, his sex drive, and his physical embodiment toward the one-flesh relationship that is the perfect paradigm of God's intention in creation.

By contrast, consider another man. This man lives alone, or at least in a context other than holy marriage. Directed inwardly rather than outwardly, his sex drive has become an engine for lust and self-gratification. Pornography is the essence of his sexual interest and arousal. Rather than taking satisfaction in his wife, he looks at dirty pictures in order to be rewarded with sexual arousal that comes without responsibility, expectation, or demand. Arrayed before him are a seemingly endless variety of naked women, sexual images of explicit carnality, and a cornucopia of perversions intended to seduce the imagination and corrupt the soul.

This man need not be concerned with his physical appearance, his personal hygiene, or his moral character in the eyes of a wife. Without this structure and accountability, he is free to take his sexual pleasure without regard for his unshaved face, his slothfulness, his halitosis, his body odor, and his physical appearance. He faces no requirement of personal respect, and no eyes gaze upon him in order to evaluate the seriousness and worthiness of his sexual desire. Instead, his eyes roam across the images of unblinking faces, leering at women who make no demands upon him, who never speak back, and who can never say no. There is no exchange of respect, no exchange of love, and nothing more than the using of women as sex objects for his individual and inverted sexual pleasure.

These two pictures of male sexuality are deliberately intended to drive home the point that every man must decide who he will be, whom he will serve, and how he will love. In the end, a man's decision about pornography is a decision about his soul, a decision about his marriage, a decision about his wife, and a decision about God.

Pornography is a slander against the goodness of God's creation and a corruption of this good gift God has given his creatures out of his own self-giving love. To abuse this gift is to weaken, not only the institution of marriage, but the fabric of civilization itself. To choose lust over love is to debase humanity and to worship the false god Priapus in the most brazen form of modern idolatry.

The deliberate use of pornography is nothing less than the willful invitation of illicit lovers and objectified sex objects and forbidden knowledge into a man's heart, mind, and soul. The damage to the man's heart is beyond measure, and the cost in human misery will only be made clear on the Day of Judgment. From the moment a boy reaches puberty until the day he is lowered into the ground, every man will struggle with lust. Let us follow the biblical example and scriptural command that we make a covenant with our eyes lest we sin. In this society, we are called to be nothing less than a corps of the mutually accountable amidst a world that lives as if it will never be called to account.

*Article originally appeared on Crosswalk June 14, 2005

R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

His Crown · July 5, 2008

CHeRIsh · July 5, 2008

This IS WoW! I am going to print this and hang it on the wall for ALL "the world" to see! We need to be raising our Blessings (children) in this, it's NOT just for the hubbys, ya know?!!!

Freely ME,

CHeRIsh-ed Rose

bracemann · July 6, 2008

Good article His Crown, keep on keepin on, the narrow way that leadeth to righteousness. Well done good and faithfull servant.

His Crown · July 10, 2008

Paul Washer echos the teaching here:

Read this:

Paul Washer excerpts (Note from Joel and Kathy - see our article a few posts later. Though a marriage is God's best plan for becoming Christlike, God's plan for marriage, we believe, is indeed God's best plan for our happiness on earth! We leave the article here though for some good thought provoking points. We believe though, bottom line, that marriage IS designed by God to make us HAPPY! )

What is the purpose of your marriage?

The number one purpose of marriage is that through marriage you might

be conformed to the image of God's son in regards to His character. In

other words, so you might learn to love like Jesus loved. And how did

Jesus love? Jesus loved the loveless!

So the purpose of your marriage, the Soveriegn purpose of God is to

use that woman to do one thing: to conform YOU to the image of God,

that's it.

Let's look at the basis of most people's idea of marriage: They don't

see it as a calling, but as the fulfillment of a desire. God has

called (man's name) to lay down his life, dreams, hopes, desires, and

everything he ever wanted, God has called (man's name) to lay down his

life for a girl by the name of (wife's name). That's what your whole

marriage is about. It has absolutely nothing to do with your needs,

your desires, nothing to do with how happy you are, it has nothing to

do with any of that. It has to do with this: God has given you a

divine decree. He has spoken forth a command. You are to lay down your

life; to DIE, for the benefit of that daughter! THAT's it!

You say: What about me? That's the little adolescent boy

talking.... You say: "I have to work all day to put food on the

table, I have to come home AND help my wife, I have to take care of my

children, I have to do ALL THIS STUFF??? I am just soooo tired."

Well, Brother, there is another option: Believe in re-incarnation and

come back as a woman!

THIS IS WHAT MEN DO!!! We labor! ..the sweat of our brow! This is

not our heaven, and this is not our rest.. This is about following

Jesus Christ to the cross and dying to self for the benefit of our

wives: period.

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