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Guest Mrs.Clean



You are in NO PLACE to be giving advice to other struggling people...in my experience (and that of many others), struggling people tend to just drag each other down. Kind of like when you go to save a drowning person...if you are not a good swimmer, the drowning person is just going to drag you under the water, too.


Not sure which one of you is already drowning, though.


As far as hearing from God...if you FEEL that you are hearing from God that this female cousin (whom you got in "trouble" for holding her hand a while back) was having problems, all you had to do was post here that you were concerned, or call your pastor or someone in her family (not Pink) and let them know that you are concerned. You really shouldn't be having contact with women who are not your direct relation (first cousins and closer, I would say). It is not appropriate, and it is just asking for you to have complications and temptations that you just should not be dealing with right now.


As far as the things you need from the house, you will need to go without those things until the next time you see Sarah. I don't know when that will be, especially since communication with Pink on our end is kind of difficult because she does not have a computer, remember? You asked to have Sarah every other weekend, so I would suspect that your visit with Sarah will begin to work toward that goal.

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Guest Mrs.Clean

Sorry, posted that before I was done.


I don't believe Joel was saying that you should have no relationship with your son...but you have frequently made a point that Joel told Pink to allow you to spend time with him, and claimed she wasn't following the rules set before her because she wasknow denying you that privelege. Joel was just clarifying that he said you should spend time with your son when doing family things TOGETHER. And he was making a point that the most inappropriate time to spend time with your son would be when Pink has kicked you out. That is just rubbing salt in the wounds, and in my opinion, borders on abusive because I KNOW you are smart, and you pretend like you didn't do it to hurt her, but I believe in my heart either consciously or unconsciously, you did. Apparently, I'm not alone...and I get that idea in Joel's post, as well.


Because you are are a man who is struggling and who does not have his act together, you really should limit the time you spend with your son as well. Again, bad swimmers rescuing drowning people...


Yes, your son needs to know you care, love him and are interested in him. But honestly, you are really not a good example to him, or in a position to help him with his "rough time."


I know this information is going to infuriate you even more, but I am saying it out of love and honestly I care. I want you to be a great swimmer so you can rescue LOTS of drowning men. (Leave the drowning women up to other women, okay?) But before you HELP others and reach out to others, you have to take care of yourself.


As far as hearing from God, as you seem to post about quite frequently lately...Paul Hegstrom writes that "the only prayer God is interested in hearing from an abusive man is a prayer of repentance." I doubt God is speaking to you now, except to whisper to you in a still small voice to come to Him, and accept him into your heart.


Take Care,


Edited by Mrs.Clean
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oh that was the other thing, thank you for pointing that out. You guys have people mixed up. This cousin had nothing to do with the hand holding, that was Pink's niece. Just thought I would clarify.


Where does it say in the bible that God's kindness should only be relayed to first cousins? I know she wasn't going to reach out to me, but the offer was meant as a way to maybe open the door into God's word. I would have just forwarded her to my pastor at the point she showed any interest in getting help. I hadn't planned on trying to counsel her.


I also learned something the other day. I always pictured God as always loving but that he did get disappointed when I did something "wrong" Where does it say in the bible that he is ever disappointed?


Thanks for the advice on not spending time around my son but I was wanting to hear exactly what Joel was saying. We aren't talking about whether or not spending time with him when I am out of the house is "abusive" or not, we are talking about one of the very HUGE issues I have with Pink. I want to know what he meant when he dragged my son's issues out and how that relates to my responsibilities as his dad. I don't have to be perfect to be a good parent, God has taught me that.


Oh and just a reminder, Joel even wrote off on me spending time with my son last time I was out of the house.


The reason you are hearing more of what God has spoken to me is because I have nothing to fear now. I was always embarrassed by it, that I wasn't GOOD enough to hear from God except that he was unhappy with me. I have since learned otherwise. Thanks again. Oh and I am not angry or infuriated just tired of the mixed wires and so many different hands in the cookie jar so to speak.


Another water rescue tip, when you have someone drowning a great way to get people hurt is to have too many people trying to be in on the rescue.


One last note, I assume that since I got to see Sarah for 8 hours rather than two and a half days this weekend that I was going to be getting to see her one day every weekend until the overnight's can start. That's my guess anyways.


The computer will be going back to Pink once the people are done repairing it, I am sure she has lot's of catching up to do so I will try to hurry them along.

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I look at the hurt and pain as a way to get stronger for life ahead of me so that I can help somebody I love in their time of need.


How about helping Pink in her time of need? Where are the words of love and concern and comfort for Pink?

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If you will note Pink's posts when everything went down I was giving her that. If I remember correctly on at least one post she said that I seemed truly sorry and was trying to tend to her. I may be mistaken and it was a conversation that we had had so please don't get too riled up if it's not on her post.


I was truly broken and shaken by the hurt that I had caused and was trying to show her that. I remember the feeling of finding my ex wife in an affair and it hit me very hard what I had done. To cause that pain to her yet again when I had sworn to only love and protect her cut me to the bone and I couldn't even imagine the pain that it was causing her.

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Guest Mrs.Clean



It seems that at this point, you aren't really interested in getting help here on the forum. If that is the case, can we respectfully ask you to seek help for your marriage elsewhere?


It's really fine if you are interested in one on one counseling for your marriage. This is a group counseling website, and it's effectiveness revolves around the participation of many helpers who volunteer their time out of the goodness of their hearts because that is what they feeled called by God to do.


If you disagree with any one of us, or this method in general, why don't you seek help from a private, one on one counselor? All of us want to see your marriage healed and you and Pink happy...however you get to that point, we don't care.


Please just stop wasting our time picking little fights on the internet, and let us focus on helping those people who WANT help from us.


Take Care,


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Guest Mrs.Clean



I was thinking about it...maybe you would benefit some from private, one one one counseling. If you are interested, I know someone who would be really good for you. Here is her link:




She truly is a wonderful woman and a faithful Christian. She does phone counseling and she charges on a sliding scale, so her rates would be more affordable than traditional counseling.


Good Luck,



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Hey Mrs. Clean thanks for the lead. I have begged Pink to ADD a one on one counselor that we could augment what was being said on the forums/phone calls because I have felt a huge disconnect between what was being "reported" and what was actually happening. I said that very poorly but I don't know how to say it w/o going into too much detail.


I have no problem with working with a couple of people that want to help. The problem is that when there are too many people just poking their heads in w/o knowing everything that is happening it just causes more chaos. They get part of the story and run with it off on their own direction, which takes us away from any progress we have made. Or always having to back up and explain things over again. Of course if I ignore it then I get called on the carpet for ignoring or what ever and if I address it then I am being snotty and defensive.


I understand that you guys are doing your best to help and can only do so much from clear across the country. I also understand that you guys can only "advise" Pink to do the right things just as you can only "advise" me to do the right things. The difference is when I throw down the gauntlet and quit doing my part your advice is to give me the boot or divorce me. If she quits then it is something that MUST be my fault, rather than digging for the truth like someone can do on a one on one. I understand that is just not possible through here.


I had HUGE hopes at the intensive that we would be "diagnosed" by being in person and seeing how we interact as well as our one on one time. I guess that's why when we left and we were given very specific directions I was kind of recharged with the hope that we could focus on OUR issues that were brought up in the intensive.


Then a month, and I understand it was ONLY a month later NOTHING had changed with the very specific directions from J & K and I gave up which is another story completely.


I am more than willing to keep coming here for guidance as well as what I find on my own because believe it or not I do want to be a better man, I just can't hang with so many different people jumping down my throat when they only have a part of an idea of what is going on. Anyways, thanks again.

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Guest Mrs.Clean
someone could tell fb that he can have Sarah Saturday from 10-6 and Sunday from 9:30-6. Last week was a holiday so it doesn't count as a every other weekend thing. This weekend will start the every other weekend that coincides with my daughters schedule



I wanted to meet fb in Starbucks in Junction City at 10:00 and than in Corvallis at Starbucks at 6. He may need a reminder that he is supposed to meet me at Starbucks. Thank-you


Also, to clarify, Flyboy...I suggested private counseling because you seem to have a problem with the public forum here. Private counseling costs money, but if you want to do that, it is an option. Call Joel and Kathy, because they may have some helpers who will give you private counseling for a fee (only do that through Joel and Kathy, though). Also, the lady I recommended is on board with this ministry and will not lead either you or Pink astray. I do not suggest, however that you go through your local phone book and just "pick" someone to help you because most counselors are NOT going to teach what we teach here, which is what I believe to be the TRUTH about how to have a happy marriage, as layed out by GOD in the Bible for us.


Enjoy your time with your daughter this weekend.


Take Care,


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Guest Mrs.Clean
the visitaion schedule is from 10am-6pm Sat(12/4) and Sun (12/5). Sat meet at Starbucks in Corvallis both times, Sun meet at Starbucks in Junction City at 10am, then at Starbucks in Corvallis at 6pm.


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Guest Mrs.Clean



Pink has mentioned to us that you would like to come to the house to pick up some things of yours. At this point, she has decided that you are not welcome in her home. You cannot be trusted to only take things that are yours or are agreed upon that you will take. If you've made it without these things so far, you can make it without them now. Especially since you have not seen fit to return ALL of the items you took from her home without permission the last time.



Also, Pink is having a difficult time caring for your dog...both financially and physically. So, you have a week from the date of this post to find a new home for your dog, or it will be placed at the pound/humane society.


Flyboy, have you considered how much money in child support you should be paying Pink for Sarah? It seems like she's taken a step forward in good faith and provided your daughter to you for visitation, and has set up a schedule in good faith...yet have you stepped forward in good faith and paid child support for your infant daughter? That doesn't make sense to me. You say Sarah is the most important thing in the world to you, yet you haven't thought to offer her mother any monthly support for items such as diapers, wipes, formula, baby food, etc. There are many child support calculators to be found online. Why not go to one of them for your state and calculate what you should be paying and begin paying it? Seems like the right thing to do to me.


Take Care,


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I still have the lap top which will be going back to get fixed either today or tomorrow. I had to buy discs to transfer all of the pictures on to before I sent it out and the return address for the shipping is her house. On that note however that lap top still actually belongs to the VA so if they ask for it back I have to give IT back.


The TV I grabbed was mine when we met. She has two other large TV's in the house that she can use. Other than that what did I take?


The child support issue. Yes of course I have thought alot about it and the calculator said that I should pay 250 per month.


We are still on the same cell phone plan (170) and car insurance plan (160) which I have been paying for. Also her gym membership (50) and apparently credit card (80) bill is automatically being deducted which actually cost me 113 dollars last month because I was broke when it went through and I got tagged for the over draft fee.


Her car since it is much newer than my truck costs 110 dollars compared to my 50 dollars per month but I am willing to split it in the middle to help out. Same thing with the cell phone bill, her part of it is the majority with her Iphone and all of that.


So if I continue to pay her half of the cell phone and car insurance bills as well as her gym member ship it is right at 200 dollars a month that I am paying.


She just spent 90 at a craft store out of my account so after paying all of the bills and her shopping I figure we are pretty much even this month. I will reimburse her for the dog food however. I also know it's not a big deal but I had to buy diapers when I had our daughter and I offered for her to take the rest because I wasn't going to need them as soon as she was. I also had some baby food I had bought that I offered to her. I don't expect her to just pay for everything and would rather work with her than fight with her. Like it or not we are going to have to come to friendly terms and start working this out on our own eventually.


I have also offered to buy her more firewood and stack the fire wood that she has now as well as get her a bunch of cedar from a mill next to where I am staying so that she can stay warm w/o having to run the electric heater which would save her money.


If she want's to break off onto her own cell phone and I will take out my own insurance plan as well as stop her automatic deductions from my account then I will give her 250 cash each month.


Also I offered to her to file our taxes jointly and let her have all of the money. I am not asking to have this taken out of my child support or anything because I know that she was looking forward to vacationing to her sisters this summer and had planned on using that money.



As far as my things that are at "her" house there needs to be something done so that I can go get them. I have made it this far w/o them because I have not been allowed over there to get them. There is maintenance on my truck I have been putting off as well as actually finishing the job I started at my parents house because I don't have my tools to do the work. So if we need to get somebody else involved in order for me to go get my things then so be it. I am sure she would trust her brother to watch or maybe get the Sheriff involved if she is afraid of me going into the house. I know that if you call them they will escort me onto the property to get my things. I am not threatening that I am going to do that I was trying to clarify that that is an option that is open to work through this together. I am also sure that our friends from church wouldn't mind standing with us while we go through this. I don't expect her to just jump when I want and let me there any ol' time but I have been asking for these things since I got the boot.


Not sure what is outside that she is afraid of me taking. There isn't anything in the house that I need so it shouldn't be a problem. I take that back, there is one thing that I need and it doesn't belong to me or I wouldn't ask for it back so maybe she could grab it and put it out in the little room in the garage.


Also there are things exposed to the rain right now that need to be covered with tarps. I asked her if I could come over and do that at the same time I picked up my things. So if she isn't going to let me get my things right now who is going to do the tarping so things don't get ruined?


As far as the dog I will get it taken care of.

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Just a quick update. I have been meeting with a friend from our church and reading Gods word every night before I go to bed. A few things have really struck me lately. They were right in front of my face but it was like a veil or something was standing between us so I couldn't hear the actual truth behind them.


I am also going to be going to the Restoration class that our church offers starting early next month.


Like I told Pink Sunday I have not given up on our marriage and am taking this time to work through the issues that I brought in to our marriage. I am still committed to her and have hope that our marriage will be restored.


Call me what you will but I want to make sure EVERY thing is on the table during this process. I have no problem answering any questions that concern Pink and have done nothing to limit her access to my life. None of my passwords have changed and I do nothing different in my daily routine.


The thing that I think really bothers you guys is that I ask questions and want clarification rather than just blindly trusting. I also know that I have been a complete jerk in the times that I needed to be Christlike the most and that has now come full circle. I am reaping what I sewed here on the forum. I am embarrassed by my attitude at times. In the moment I felt like I was fighting for the true healing in my marriage rather than a cosmetic band aid. Either way it doesn't make it right and that is one message I am getting loud and clear from the Holy Spirit.


I was reading the other day about how Jesus was ridiculed when he was on the cross and how people were saying that since he wasn't saving himself he wasn't really the Son of God. He had every right to argue and protect himself but he chose not to.


He could have gotten angry with the people or lashed out to "show" them but he didn't. He took their punishment and gave them nothing but love in return. I have to figure out how to get there. So much of my life has been spent learning how to stand up for myself and to not be walked on that I now need to focus on the other side of it and learn where it is ok.


Which brings me to other questions that I have concerning marriage. I am going to ask some really dumb questions and I hope that they can be answered for the question it is so that I can try to figure some things out here.


There was a reason that God created Eve right? What was that reason? He said he had Adam name all of the animals he had created but that a suitable mate/help meet couldn't be found so God put him in a deep sleep and created Eve from his rib right? For what reason(s) was Eve created? At the time they were still in the garden so Sin was not involve in their lives right? If sin was not involved then Adam was Christ like right?


I want to start at the beginning and try to understand God's design for husband and wife. I am an absolute baby Christian and am trying to pull into God and learn what his true desires are for my life. I know his focus is on family above all else which opens up more questions


I don't know if it is in the bible the reason it was a rib though. Or am I combining Hollywood with truth?


I just figure that Pink and I began this relationship on a horrible foundation and now it is coming back to haunt us. I am hoping to take this time and work towards both of strengthening our relationship with God and focusing inwards. Maybe eventually I can earn her trust back and we can start dating again I don't know.



Anyways I know I have burned a lot of bridges here and I apologize wholeheartedly for that. No matter what I need to focus on responding out of love. You guys don't have to answer my questions but I would very much appreciate it if somebody could.

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Guest Mrs.Clean



There are no dumb questions, as long as they are asked with honesty and a true desire to learn.


Nobody wants you to blindly trust...you were required to read the books before the intensive, and then for homework AFTER the intensive.


However, sometimes it's just A LOT of information to "get" when you're marriage is struggling and taking its last dying breath.


I have e mailed Joel and asked HIM to comment on your questions, as I believe that his answers will be very valuable for many people reading this thread.


Take Care,


PS. I am glad that you are searching, but my biggest concern is that you may lose your wife and family as you take time "off" to search for what you think will "heal" your marriage. Rather, you should put into practice what your wife believes will heal her, and search for answers in your spare time.

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Sadly - what you are doing is that you are working your plan.


Your plan is to finish school - getting what you want - and then to restore your marriage.


The only way that I see for you to have a restored marriage is for you to drop the school and pursue a different career.


How could Pink be able to live with you forever, knowing that you built your marriage on the foundation (speaking of wrong foundations) on stepping out of the marriage long enough to do what you want to do - and then and ONLY then you did what you needed to do to restore the marriage.


God created Eve because "it is not good for man to be alone.


That is a good enough reason for me! I would HATE to live without Kathy. That would not be good for me at all.


God created man, male and female created he them. Husband and wife together are "man".


We have two chapters in "Livin' it and Lovin' it!" on "HelpMeet". No time to re-write those chapters here. Adam and Eve had the same passions and weaknesses that we had - as reflected in the failure of them eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I an every other man need a helpmeet. Jesus was the only man who walked perfect without a wife.


Suffice to say that God's creation was always an ascending order. Ground, Sky, Waters and seas, plants, fish, animals, man.. his creating kept improving every time. God is a God of continual increase and improvement. Finally, his crowning creation of all creation? Woman! Halelujah!


Thank God that he said that he created MAN, MALE AND FEMALE. Some women could argue that they are created on a higher plane or higher level than men. Personally, I am quite aware that Kathy is created on a higher plane than I am in many ways - BUT I get to hang MY hat (we and our house) on the fact that God created man and woman equally, to be one flesh, He created man, male and female he created them, and that my wife is "comparable" to me. I am complimented to have God say that Kathy is comparable to me - because Kathy is like Mary Poppins - "Practically Perfect in Every Way!"


We fit together perfectly - like a lock and a key, like the sun and the beach, like the stars and the sky, like the... oh well... you get the idea.


I see your "plan" Flyboy: "Co-parent with as little pain to myself as possible, finish school and then get back with Pink. This ministry will tell her that she needs to give me a chance because I will be SO sincere when the time comes. After all, I know what is best for our family - and what is best is that I finish this schooling because it is the best job that I can get. She will thank me later and admit that I am 'right'."


How do I know this? Because I used to be an abusive husband too. And all abusive men think alike. We think we are superior. We think we don't "need" our wife and we know that it is SHE who is LOSING if SHE does not back off.


So your plan is to just swallow what she is attempting to do now - attempting to get you to quit school and get on a different career track and have some real repentance - you are not letting her efforts bring you to repentance - and your plan is to just tread water until you finish school.


My "vote" is that your wife does not allow for that - but that is just my "vote". Her two year clock is ticking - but it is NOT two years for you to repent. It should, in my opinion, ONLY be a two year clock before she begins to date. As far as I am concerned, if you do not quit school immediately, she should not ever, nor should we as a ministry ever encourage her, to let you back into her life.


You have made yourself clear.


You are the boss.


You are in charge.


You don't care in the least what your wife wants or asks you to do.


What wife could be married to a man like that.


This is not an "oops".


You have staked your position and you will not budge.


That is no different than me declaring that I would stay in adultery with the woman I had an affair with - and that if Kathy wants to be married to me, then she just has to accept it.


It is unadulterated, unmistakable, undiluted control and "throwing down" - demanding your way.


That is abuse.




I pray that your wife does not make the mistake of ever letting you back into her life - if you do not immediately stop schooling. She will be setting herself up for years of hell.




On a final, personal/ministry note: I do not believe that you have apologized ONCE to this ministry for lying to us and to your wife for a LONG time by INSISTING that you do not have a problem with Porn. Last thing I knew, you are STILL denying that you do. You ALWAYS told us things like "Yes, I have issues - but I am NOT into porn like her ex-husband was." That irks me personally - AND it REALLY irks me that you are working the plan that you told me you were going to work - and that is to stick to your plan to finish school and then to attempt to have a restoration. How arrogant. The sad part is that you might just succeed and all of our work to try and help you to stop being an abuser will have been for naught. You will have gotten what you wanted with absolutely NO core change inside yourself as a man.

Edited by JoelandKathy
added a line about Adam and Eve having same weaknesses as we have.
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Guest Mrs.Clean

I personally, do NOT believe Pink will take him back EVER if he pursues the "go to school, THEN win her back" plan.


Pink is getting stronger and smarter every day. She is an impressive woman.


Thank you, Joel for answering Flyboy. I was very interested in what you had to say.


Take Care,


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I can hear the replies now that this isn't about me, but in a sense it is. I have to understand what I am doing wrong in order to change it more than on the surface. I've taken heat for not getting this as quickly as other husbands, which is fine but I guess the bright side is that when I do completely get "it" It will stick much better.




Here is something that you wrote this back in January. You thought you would get this, but you are not. It is not sticking. and the reason is Biblical. It is not that you've not had enough time, it is because you have not "tilled the soil"... as in the parable of the sower. Getting this requires churning up the hardened soil of your life. Churning up the areas that do not yield good fruit in the relationships of your life. One such area is in your choice of career. That career hurts the relationship between you and your wife - get RID of it. As the Bible reads: "It is not good for man to be alone." God blessed you with Pink. There are MANY jobs out there. God DOES instruct man to work, but he didn't say, "It is not good for man to not be nurse." That is FB speaking. God WANTS you to be UNDERSTANDING (1PET3:7) towards Pink; GOd cares much less about HOW you choose to support her financially, just so long as you do. God DOES instruct you to lay down your life (ego, pride, etc ) for her, but God does NOT instruct you to lay down your life for a nursing job. Again, that's FB speaking about HIS wants, which all need to be laid down FOR your relationship with Pink..


Women's greatest attribute is not a sense to win a fight. God placed this great protective quality in men, by and large - which is why men are sent out for war: they fight to win and they are able to compartmentalize their feelings and emotions. She was designed to nurture. So for on the occasions that SHE does fight to win (even though it is not in a woman's nature to overrule), you BOTH actually win because she is usually fighting to win in a nuture war. On most other fronts, women must be taught or pushed to fight to win - while men must be taught to nuture. THis is why God gave Eve to Adam, to help him LEARN this. And this is why Paul instructs men to love her like Christ loved. You NEED her to learn the lessons God has for you. Not that she would necessarily TEACH you this, like someone holding a club over your head, but that she would "respond" and "mirror" to you in ways that God would use to help you grow. Its is not easy for her to do this, trust me on that note. It is not easy for her because her nuture nature is just now learning how to fight the very man whom she believed would protect her. Your treatment of her is now teaching her how to fight. Wouldn't it be better for you to learn how to nuture than for her to learn how to fight? When you learn to nurture her heart, then you BOTH win. It starts by listening to that which strips her of emotional protection, i.e. - your insistence to stay in nursing. If you want to use your God given ability to fight, then use it to protect your wife's heart, which in turn, fights to nurture your family and your soul.


But in getting back to my original purpose for this post, please allow me to show you how Nemo "tilled the soil" so that the seeds that were planted (by J&K) could grow...




Please take the time to look this over. Blessings....

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Hey thank's I will check that out. This is really rough on the eyes to read what I just wrote and have spent an hour trying to focus it without sounding like a victim or a saint. I am neither. I created a situation from not having the knowledge in God's word to go into a marriage that desperately needed a strong leader. I am trying to fix that. So fire away because I said some really stupid things that I know will trigger hurts but I don't know how to get answers to my questions without asking.


So nobody really answered my question around my son though. I have voiced over and over again that there are greater issues than the nursing program and that if there was any sign that those issues were being addressed then I would drop the program. The problem is that they are not. So long as I sit and do what Pink wants with no needs of my own then everything is fine.


She said she "sensed" a change in me when I started the program and now knows why it is. She feels that I was into porn and getting my needs met by the women in the program hence the need for me to drop the program.


Problem is that neither was the case. Yes my attitude did change when I began the program but it was exactly what you said. We send men to war because we have the resolve to win... I was facing a battle to complete the program and I was going to fight to win.


Another HUGE change in me was the fact that I just gave up on ever being happy in my marriage. I have asked, pleaded and SCREAMED that things were not well in our marriage. I would bring something up to be addressed....such as what to do around my son or the lack of intimacy and I was ridiculed on here for asking. Then after everything blew up and I told Joel and Kathy the things that I told you on here, the things that Pink would tell me after we would get off of a phone call and they again pointed the finger at me and told ME that it was all my fault for not speaking up sooner. You on here tell me to shut up, they tell me to speak up. They tell Pink she doesn't have a choice whether to make love or not and you tell her that you would really like her to but she doesn't have to.


So Pink and I got married just over a year and a half ago. We were intimate 3-4 times a week while we were dating. We would spend the weekends in bed together just laying there watching movies and recovering because we were both exhausted from school. We got married and she got pregnant and dropped out of school. So now she want's to go run and play all of the time and get's upset with me because I am tired from school. The intimacy stopped almost as soon as we got married. Like within a week it was all ready a once a week thing. Then she got pregnant and it got worse. Then she had the baby and it got better for a little while but then went back to the week to week and a half routine.


Once we were married we would be intimate on average every 10 days. Out of those ten days 3 or 4 would be day's where she would tell me that I wasn't meeting her needs so why would she meet mine. She would give me a list of things (chores) that I had promised to get done but hadn't. So I would work on that list trying to please her and meet her needs.

The other 6 or 7 days was just lack of a desire for her. She just didn't want to. The excuse varied but it was all pretty much the same idea. Let's wait until after this tv show or movie...oh wait now I'm too tired maybe tomorrow after my workout. Oh darn I spent to much time at the gym and have to get to work maybe tonight. Shoot babe I'm so tired from my day today let's just get some sleep and maybe tomorrow huh? Oh you want to be intimate with me? What about those things I told you to get done. You aren't meeting my needs why should I meet yours.....and thus the cycle would continue until I either looked pathetic enough or caught her in the "mood" and we would make love. It felt like trying to launch a space shuttle with all of the minor details that had to be in place every single time that I even asked her.


My point by saying anything about the dating was that I acknowledge that our foundation for our marriage is broken. There are more things at play here than "my" choice of careers.


Joel told me that there is no way he would ask a man to go through what you all ask if his wife won't do her part. In that moment we were talking about the lack of intimacy from Pink. I was told that if a wife doesn't want to be intimate then there's no hope until she makes that choice. He said that there is only so far that I am going to progress w/o Pink making her own sacrifices.


I tried nicely to tell you that those sacrifices that were "suggested" for her were not being made. I thought if I just gave her some time she would come around. I thought if I just loved her more or was a better man she would want to do these things. That's why we would go a month to a month and a half w/o hearing from us. I would just suck it up and keep working on my part hoping that she would do her part. Then after the month or so I would start asking her why she wasn't wanting to do her part. That's when the trouble would start. She was fine so long as I didn't ask her for anything and was available to meet her needs. Get tired, sick or just frustrated and it would hit the fan.


None of that matters any more because no matter if I quit the program or not I won't go home until these issues are resolved. Joel can say that I am working my own program or however he said it that's fine but I am done killing myself for absolutely nothing. There were many many consequences for me if I didn't toe the line but none for her if she decided to not go along with her part of the program.


I have made more than my share of mistakes and am working on my attitude and my view of the world. I am trying to pull closer to God to see what his word says about what I should be expecting out of my wife.


I feel completely let down and betrayed by her which is I guess the real reason that I won't drop the program. I don't trust her any more that she wants to be a working partner in a relationship.


Dumb question time. I don't think that God created Eve for Adam to serve her like a slave and get nothing in return. I struggle with that because I want to serve her with my whole heart, but I feel like she needs to be doing the same for me. It's not a 50/50 relationship but a 100/100. What exactly should a husband be able to expect from his wife? God created men to be a certain way and created his wife to meet those needs right? He created every man different with different needs and created a woman to meet those individual needs. I said that wrong. I look at it like he created one being then split them in two for the "world" Then they find each other and become one again, each giving something to the other that they were missing. Neither one better or worse than the other, smarter or dumber than the other, stronger nor weaker than the other. A team. One with strengths that fill the others weaknesses. The problem I have like I said though is what should I expect out of my wife? Maybe I am expecting to much. Should I be looking to God when I am needing to be intimate with my wife? I thought that was why he created man and woman to work together in that sense. That he knew my needs and weaknesses and created this woman that filled both those voids. That I would need her and that SHE would be my weakness right?

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None of that matters any more because no matter if I quit the program or not I won't go home until these issues are resolved


The biggest ISSUE is your attitude and sense of entitlement. And letting go of YOUR need to do nursing is the beginning of what would show her a change in your attitude.


The problem I have like I said though is what should I expect out of my wife?




PLAN to love her and expect to learn how to be intimate WITH GOD in doing so.


How would it be if a mother asked, "what should I expect from this baby?" NOTHING! Its a human being given to that woman (by God) to die to herself for, just as Adam was given Eve to die to HIMSELF for to LEARN HOW TO LOVE another OVER himself!!!!!!! This is what Christlikeness is ALL about, making it ALL ABOUT another human being!


Should I be looking to God when I am needing to be intimate with my wife?


YES, when you have been treating her treacherously. NO, when she feels safe enough to be intimate with you. Again, kinda like a child. Would we expect a child to nurse from its mother if she had been treating it harshly? NO! That child could not relax enough to even WANT to nurse from her.


I thought that was why he created man and woman to work together in that sense.


She gives him what he needs not because he demands it, but because God ordains it. YOU DON"T get to decide exactly what those needs are either. You are totally looking at this from the WRONG perspective.


That I would need her and that SHE would be my weakness right?


Either you are sick, or that came out totally wrong!.


I am sorry Joel that I bothered to try. Back to your post Joel.

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But you don't listen to your baby when they are crying saying they want cake for dinner do you? They want immidiate gratification rather than what is good for them.


I wasn't treating her "treacherously" as you say. According to Pink the 5 weeks post I was an amazing husband and she had never been so happy in her life. She would go around and tell people this and then when we got home, NOTHING towards me. NOTHING. She would make herself breakfast and never even ask if I was hungry. There was no intimacy. There was absolutely nothing towards my needs what so ever.


I asked yesterday why Eve was created. The answer I was given was because God saw that it was not good for man to be alone. Adam was PERFECT when he was created. It says so in the bible. Eve was created as a mate for Adam, not a ruler. She was created out of a rib so that they would stand side by side, not one about the other.


What you are telling me is that my wife was created for me to serve and that is IT. DO NOT ask for anything, DO NOT have any needs and DO NOT fail in the least bit because GOD IS WATCHING.


I did not demand that my wife be nice to me or respect me or what ever. I knew she was hurt and that it would take awhile for her to trust me and to completely open up. My problem with the lack of intimacy was verified by Joel. He said that it was not ok for Pink to do what she was doing. Now you are saying it is ok. So who is right? Maybe you need to talk to Joel to get your story straight?


What is sick about needing my wife? That just the sight of her would be a weakness for me. God created me to enjoy looking at my wife and he created her to be pleasurable to look at correct? Or do you think it is just a coincidence that men are very visual and women are very sightly?


Another thought came to me. Something I just read in the bible. It says that I shouldn't go out and try to minister to others until my home is in order. I can look up the verse if you would like. Either way, the meaning here is clear. Until you have your things in order you are only going to mess others up by trying to "heal" them.


I am trying to filter through the pain and hurt that keeps coming through from the counselors to figure out what God's true intention for a marriage is.


I know for sure that Eve wasn't created to rule over Adam just as much as Adam wasn't meant to rule over Eve. It is a mutual submission, mutual need for one another, mutual love and respect for each other as well as mutual effort towards meeting the others needs. Men and women have different needs that's why he created the opposite sex. He wasn't creating a dictatorship he was creating ONE flesh in HIS IMAGE. What in God's image say's that one person based upon how they pee has a right to rule over the other?


By telling me that according to God has no obligations to me as her husband is a distortion of the truth. I do not know exactly what the truth is at this point but I know it is not there.


Sorry you feel like you wasted your time. Again God created me as a fighter, not one to lay down and just take what is handed to me especially when it doesn't line up with his word. In all love and honesty thanks again.

Edited by flyboy
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I just re-read the beginning of that last post.


So let me clarify.


My job as the husband is to learn how to love somebody other than myself.


What is her job?


To teach me where I am wrong?


Maybe to have offspring and continue the line?


Nurture the kids?


Maybe nurture the husband?


What is her job?

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God created man, male and female created he them. Husband and wife together are "man".


Actually God said, "let US create THEM in OUR image" when Adam was created in Gen 1:26, meaning ... the Trinity created "them" in the Trinity's image: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.


God wants intimacy and ONENESS with you and Pink just as he enjoys with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You manifest Jesus and she is the manifest of the HS in this union. What did the Holy Spirit do? Helper, comforter, creator, discerner, convicter, guide, truth harbinger, witness bearer, interceder, searcher, giver, strengthener, griever, etc. Jesus came to be obedient to God and to serve in the capacity of laying down his life for his bride. Have you done this? This is what YOU are called to do. Have you done what God has called YOU TO DO?


Stop focusing on Adam and Eve and where you fit in when you are supposed to be focused on Christ so much that you push yourself out of your flesh. Pushing out your flesh is the battle that YOU are called to do - never mind Pink. Never mind Adam. Adam failed where Christ came to rescue. Have you done this???? Have you laid down your life to rescue Eve? Yes it means emptying yourself OUT so that Christ can come live within you to get the job done. And in doing so, you will live an abundant life as he promises to prosper you.


Anyone who trys to save his life will lose it, but anyone who loses his life for my sake will FIND it. Matt 6:25


You are so trapped because you don’t understand the nature of this battle and you simply refuse to recognize the ugliness of your own flesh-driven heart.


Its time to LOSE flyboy, and PUT ON CHRIST.

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Hey Dory thank you for the clarification. I'll do some thinking on that one.


The issue I have keeps going back to what you guys THINK what was going on and what actually happening, hence my offer for somebody to come hang out with us for a day or two and then offer the guidance.


Case in point. Let's take a look back at when you guys gave us both the list of abuses that occur in a marriage.


Do you remember my response? I said that I could see 3 or 4 that I could occasionally fit in to.


Do you remember Pink's? That there MAY be 1 or 2 that she might apply to ME, but her ex husband was almost every single one of them.


Did anybody at all pick up on that and us it as a place to start with us? Nope. They continued on with that I am the perpetrator of all evil in the world for Pink. The continued to add their very own hurts to the mix rather than trying to bring peace and calm. They confirmed to Pink that she should NOT trust me and NOT work on her own things.


She didn't need to read because as one person on here was kind enough to write....She has probably read a ton of books and so she doesn't need to read.....just focus on yourself. In the intensive however the instructions were to BOTH of us and that we would work TOGETHER to keep the other one on task and focused on the reading. That is was not only OK but my job as her husband to gently and kindly remind her to read, just as it was her job to make sure that I kept reading.


The difference between Pink and I is that I don't care what you guys think of me. If it would help the marriage you guys could call me Jack the Ripper for all I care. Pink on the other hand is petrified to have the truth be out there. Hide everything that is bad so that others don't think poorly of you.


That manifested itself by her telling me that she would not do what you guys told her to do.


On another occasion it was by telling me when I suggested that I call Joel and she call Kathy to figure out a solution to an issue we were having, that she didn't have any reason to call Kathy because I was the one that needed fixing not her.


I was told on numerous occasions that I must be a liar because if I was doing all of these things that I was saying, that she as a wife would have no choice but to love me and since she wasn't responding then I surely must not be doing what I say.


Why am I focusing on her? Why am I focusing on Adam and Eve and Gods over all plan for a marriage? Because when I focused on ME, nothing changed in the house. This is where the disconnect between what Joel has said and what you guys are saying to me now.


Joel has told me over and over that in order for us to have a successful marriage Pink needs to "reward" me with my parade and intimacy. Does anybody deny or refute that?


I want to know if the needs that I have are supposed to be met by my wife. The desire for intimacy, the desire to feel loved and cared for above all others in sickness and in health.


There is a disconnect between what J&K ask of a couple in the intensive and what you on here "advise"


My focus is to start at square one, rebuild MY foundation and learn what God requires of me as both a leader and a husband. To get into my heart and soul and learn why I react to you on here the way that I do.


I am also going to try to learn what is wrong of me to expect out of my marriage. In the end hopefully Pink is willing to give us another shot.


If you guys want to hang around and help me through the journey that would be great. If I am too frustrating for you or require too much from you I understand and don't blame you. I thank all of you for your time and effort and deeply and sincerely apologize for my attitude. That is something that I need to continue to focus on and work on which I promise to do.


In this process I will be trying to back up what I am being told biblically so when I ask what seems like a stupid question please don't get too upset with me. You can laugh all you want though, they say laughter is really good for your health.

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Guest Mrs.Clean



I've had a busy day today and have been out of the house for a while...


but honestly, you are asking good questions, but your mind is simply NOT in the place right now to "get" what it is we are trying to say.


Yes, you are to EXPECT nothing in return from your wife for your laying your life down for her. That doesn't mean you don't get anything in return.


Just like when I had my kids. I didn't EXPECT them to give me anything, I had them so I could give to them...pour into them, breathe life into them....give them life (milk) from my own body. The things that they have given me in return are things that they give to me because they are responders (like your wife is in your relationship). They mirror back to me the things I give to them...PLUS some.


The reason you weren't getting sex 3 times a week when you were doing good (those 5 weeks post intensive) was because the relationship was BROKEN. Pink was wounded and there were problems there that needed to be healed. For example...my daughter has a form of autism...so when I began caring for her when she was born, and loving her, feeding her, burping her, diapering her, reading to her, singing to her, I waited and waited for her to return the affection. IT NEVER HAPPENED IN THE WAY I EXPECTED. My daughter doesn't run up to me or tell me that she loves me or hug me like I would have expected. WHen she was a toddler, she rarely even looked me in the eyes or interacted with me in games or trivial conversations. I was getting absolutely NO visible reward to all of the work I was putting into her, yet, did I stop? Of course not! Nor would you!!!! Her way of responding is WOUNDED and BROKEN because of her form of autism. She can't help that. Now, we work on those issues through therapy and try to change them...and now, at 10 years old, she CAN respond to me in ways that reward me for the things that I do for her. But still, all of those YEARS I put in!


Your wife is somewhat the same. I'm not saying she has autism. I'm saying that your relationship was broken before you got married (even though it felt like it was working better than it is now), and both of you were broken from your previous relationships. So, when you POUR life into your wife like you did those first 5 weeks (and I will give you credit, you did do that...except you two should have been doing the homework, which you WEREN'T doing), she may not immediately respond like other women do...because of those broken areas.


You mentioned over and over again the problem of intimacy. And honestly, we were working with Pink on that and have told you several times that we were working on it with her. And of course, as soon as we began working IN EARNEST on it with her, she found porn on your computer...and that pretty much validated everything she had said to us previously about feeling "used" and uncomfortable during sex. Her issues about having sex with you had to do with feeling used, feeling uncomfortable and unloved. That can happen OFTEN with a man who is into porn. And unfortunately, you can tell us that you only did it that once when you were out of the house, but we have to listen to a woman when she is saying that she feels that way, and then porn is found on the husbands computer. YOu know, it's kind of like 1+1=2.


Prior to that, we WERE encouraging her to push through that feeling of being used and to find ways to feel connected in order to have quickies...that way there could be 2 quickies per week and 1 longer session in which she feels loved and satisfied, if you know what I mean. However, all of that ceased when we found out about the porn because we are not going to force a woman to make love with a man who is in adultery. Porn=adultery. And since you have said you feel bad about the porn, and that it was a mistake, but you HAVEN'T had any form of repentance over it, we really ARE stuck.


As far as you saying, "I'm not pulling out of school and jumping through all of your hoops unless I'm guaranteed that things will be different," again, that is just a hint to Pink and the rest of us that you are nowhere NEAR ready to be Christlike to her within the marriage. I didn't have my daughter and say, "well, I'll accept this baby AS LONG AS she sleeps through the night by 6 weeks of age and gets straight A's through high school." You can't do that. When you are the INITIATOR, you must accept the responsibility to AGAPE love someone without the expectation of love in return.


Christ did NOT go to the cross with the idea that people would love and adore and worship him. In fact, he went to the cross shamed, naked and HATED. And he didn't say a word. Except to ask his father to forgive us for torturing and killing him.


Can you not SEE that this is the kind of love we are looking for from you with Pink? Go to her and say, "I don't care what your conditions are, I don't care if you don't want to have sex with me FOREVER, I don't care about anything, I just want the OPPPORTUNITY to love you unconditionally for life," and MEAN IT...and then things will turn around.


Until you MEAN IT...and understand that agape love isn't about getting your needs met, then you actually, will never GET your needs met.


Sounds crazy, but it's true. Until you STOP expecting things, you won't get the things that you want.


Kind of like a watched pot never boils...


You know what I'm saying?


Hope this helps.


Take Care,


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