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Hey Mrs. Clean thank you once again for your time and effort.


I am going to print out your and Dory's post so that I can really read it.


My question for you without reading all of it is this....


What happens when you give and give and not only do you not get anything back but you get kicked for your efforts?


I know what Jesus Christ did. Which was to continue to love and die on the cross for us.


So I have that on one side.


Then I have the other side which is quantified by Joel telling me that he would NOT ask a man to continue to sacrifice if his wife wasn't trying as well...such as the intimacy issue.


The part where I truly gave up was where she showed no interest in working towards meeting any of my needs no matter how small. I could not ask my wife to remember me when she made herself breakfast. It was my duty to make sure to offer to make her breakfast, but I can count on one hand how many times she even ASKED me if I was hungry in the morning. That is in three years of being together.


It wasn't just the lack of intimacy that had me questioning what her role in my life was. It was the nurturing and caring that I see from other women that I did not see from Pink. What hurt more was that it seemed like she was more than happy to continue on with life so long as I didn't have any needs and was able to meet all of hers.


Another issue that I keep asking about and nobody has given me a straight answer on is my son. I bailed on him trying to show Pink that SHE was more important than my son. I hoped that she would come around and begin working with me to heal my son or at least let me be around him before it was to late. it just kept getting worse and worse as he slipped further and further down the hill.


In the intensive we were given clear instruction that I was to be a part of his life both physically and financially. Even if it was just a trip to the movies once a week I was to maintain contact because that would also help with my progression.


So you have J & K saying that if Pink wanted me to become the man of her dreams, that there were TWO very important tasks that she was going to have to shoulder.


One was my son and the other was the intimacy. She made sure neither of them happened.

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One issue that both Pink and I had was that her sister Hope was always involved in our relationship.


Is there a way that my thread can be moved to a private section of some sort?


Or if not can we get Hope to agree to stay off of my thread?


I have nothing against her personally but I don't think that she needs to know everything that is going on.


Not trying to be a jerk just saying that this has also been an unresolved issue that Pink and I have both agreed on but she did not want to say anything that would hurt anybody's feelings.

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I have one question for you? And, we'd all really appreciate a Yes or No answer without more questions asked by you - simply say, YES or say NO.


Are you willing to put ALL your feelings on the back burner for a season in order to bring healing to Pink. This means, that for a season,

(not forever) what you FEEL won't matter. What you WANT doesn't matter. Basically, Pink will be getting her way for a SEASON.


Do you love her enough to do this? YES or NO

Edited by Kay
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How long is a "season"?



I sacrificed time with my son for her feelings and NOBODY will answer me on if that is ok or not.


Mrs. Clean you talked about your daughter and I commend you for your perseverance and unending love, but what would you do if your husband told you that she was too much trouble and that you were to choose between her and him?

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A husband is the SOURCE, the head of the wife. There is no getting around this clear description of the role of a husband in marriage. It is in direct correlation to HOW you lay your life down for a Bride. A Godly man from his spirit man gives her from his Source, who is Christ, that which gives her life and strength for her emotional well-being. You know this in your intellect but do not see how this plays out in day to day living. It is actually quite straightforward and simple.


A SOURCE is the beginning point. A husband is the originator and the one to whom all things in marriage can be traced back to. All roads lead back to the husband. 1 Corinthians 11:3, God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of the man and the man is the head of the wife. This one revelation understood and practiced can change your marriage.


It also changes YOU because whatever a man practices and walks in he is changed by and changed into. When you walk after the flesh you will stay fleshly. When you walk after the Spirit you become a spiritual man, mature. This truth is exactly why your wife and those who see your life know what is coming from you. All we have to do is look at the results to know exactly what came from the source. It is an immutable principle of God, He has set up in marriage. When we live by His principles and adjust our lives to obedience to those principles we reap the blessings of walking in truth.


Here is a word picture Scripture often uses to explain the principle of initiate/response. It is nothing more than, sowing and reaping.


You plant a seed(initiate/give) and she receives that seed and will respond to the exact nature of that seed. Her heart is the soil you are sowing into. In the natural realm the principle is the same....ie., When you plant tomatoes you are not going to get an apple. You will get whatever you gave. So also is it with a wife's heart. When you give love and all that means for her then she will take your love and be able to have something to give you back.


You can know what love is by reading 1 Corinthians 13: 4-7; Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. When acted upon these attributes of love are continually in motion and show up in behavior towed your wife.


The fruit of the Holy Spirit are the attitudes of the heart. The attitudes of one's heart will determine the behavior they choose. In marriage, your carnality is opposed to love but embracing love will change your actions. It will be lived out and show FRUIT.


Galatians 3:16-24 says, But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.


You are the one who supplies whatever raw materials pink has to work with....or respond to. If you are only giving her love conditioned upon what she is giving you or what you need, then the love you are giving is not agape love. Agape love is is an unconditional love. It is for the benefit and blessedness of the recipient and the object of love. It is giving INTO her need.


A man does not plant a seed into the ground and then go looking at it every day demanding that it grows. He is not giving all the wrong ingredients and then expecting his seed to grow properly. No, he is about the business of nourishing it and nurturing it along...by sunshine, water and tending to it. The farmer knows that there is TIME in between what he plants and the harvest from it. Here, we call this the lag time in between removing the pain and abuse from the past and replacing it with loving acts of kindness and goodness toward her. You are dying to your "old" way of gardening and learning how to tend to her rightly (or righteously).


In the process of what you are learning here there is a time that you are pulling up, plucking up, uprooting the effects of your previous harvest. You can see plainly in pink the results of ignoring her heart. This is like a Gardner who is breaking up the fallow ground. He is turning it over and starting again. In marriage you are having to turn over and start again with the right materials that will produce the right results. Part of tending your marriage is pulling the weeds that are choking out the proper growth of life.


In marriage there is TIME between planting new seeds of Christ-likeness or loving behavior and making sure in your watchful care over your Garden, your marriage that you are learning how to become a excellent Gardner.


When you are living with your wife with an undercurrent of control (wanting what you want by refusing to meet her need) then that is the material you are supplying to her to work with. Her heart (soil) is not able to take destructive seeds and give anything back to you from that. Your Garden will soon be in a shambles...weeds, overgrown and thorns growing up instead of a bountiful harvest.


You have trampled your Garden. You have not only refused to start over again but you continue to do what you have always done that led to the demise of your marriage to begin with. You are still sowing destructive (abusive) seeds. You have been so busy tending to yourself that all around you is the proof and evidence you have been lacking and wanting in your gardening skills!


It is a choice here flyboy. A choice of obedience to being a SOURCE that gives love and shows fruit OR a SOURCE that sows the deeds of the flesh and is not of Christ.


Jesus said it even more simply, A tree is KNOWN by its fruit.


As of now you are not taking from your SOURCE, who is Christ and living from what Christ wants to supply to you. You are still going to the well of your flesh and drawing from bitter waters and expecting sweetness to come from this.


Go back to Christ and take from Him what you need and give again to your wife those seeds of His kind of love. Walk in the same attitude Christ has toward His Bride. Christ gave it ALL. He gave up His life, His body, His rights to glory, His reputation, His right to defend Himself, to retaliate, to have His own way.


GO, and do likewise....


When you lay down your life as Christ commanded you to do then you are holding hands with God in agreement. You have positioned yourself for the blessing of following principles to claim His promises. However, refusing to love and lay down your life, you have turned your back on God, are in agreement with Satan and have broken Covenant. All you have left is to be outside the promises of God and the only company you keep is with your own demons to torment you.





Edited by Pure in Heart
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She is a helpmeet...ezer k'negdu

Joel and Kathy's definition of Helpmeet -


Helpmeet: A teammate who stands with me, shoulder to shoulder and sometimes out in front as we seek to fulfill God's plan for our life together. One who can help me in ways that I cannot help myself, one who is equal to me in all ways and greater in some. One who is always on my mind. One who God has put into my life to help me become the man that He has called me to be by making me aware of attitudes, words and actions that do not reflect Christ in my relationship to her, our children, the church and the world.


Ken Nair's description of Help-meet:


Helpmeet: Being so committed to godliness in her marriage as to risk the safety of self-protection; not giving in to the fear of being vulnerable while constructively and precisely sharing even the inner-most feelings of her heart; honestly expressing her appraisal of the marriage relationship positive or negative, so her husband can truly live with her in an understanding way and care for her as Christ does.


The title help meet/completer is one God bestowed upon a woman because he intended that she help her husband with relationships; his relationship with God and with others. No one knows a man as well as his wife. Nor does anyone have a capacity for commitment to a man like his wife can have. No one will be affected by a man's positive or negative relationship characteristics as will his wife. Negative characteristics affect a wife to such a degree she cannot ignore them. So making him aware of his negatives, for the purpose of developing solutions, is essential to her well being as well as his. Your purpose is to help God, by helping your husband in his efforts to understand and accomplish God's goals.




Pure in Heart: Helpmeet


God created a woman to embrace the truth that they were created by God to be loved and cherished without fear, without abuse. This very TRUTH sets them free to understand their value before God and that no man has the right to rob her heart of that intrinsic worth. They learned that not only are they to be loved.....God placed within them a desire to connect.....tesh-oo-kaw'(phonetic spelling).....desire, longing, craving...a stretching forth.....overflowing. to their husband. That they are not in a marriage to be less than and ignored but God Himself gave that woman to her husband because only SHE has been given a powerful role by God to be the instrument in God's hand to effect CHANGE in that once abusive man. To be willing to HELP him learn. To be patient and kind as he grows, to treat him with responsive love when he makes strides in his efforts forward.


Every human being no matter where they have come from needs encouragement, they need a smile, to be held, to be forgiven in those moments of failure. Husbands need this too. She HELPS him in matters of the heart because he really does not know. God took that "knowing" out of Adam's side or rib...(pleuris means a whole part, a side of)... and placed it within her. Adam would need her because God took that part out of Adam. She is now the corresponding "missing part" he NEEDS. Together they are one flesh, the image and likeness of God. They are two different parts that when together show both faces of who God is. He is ONE but also Triune.


She understands how to move out of the darkness into the light of relating..To literally have the gifting of her God to HELP her husband cut through all the fluff...to pin-point his downfalls and weakness, in love HELP that man to be restored to the image and likeness of his God. To help remove whatever hinders relationship...relationship of course hinges on LOVE. To pull back the covers of the places he hides, the places he runs too, the places inside him that keep him buried under the ashes and in the prison of his bondage, to lovingly HELP him see flaws of his sinful flesh, those things that keep him from God, that move him farther away from being a mature, perfect man. When she HELPS and responds...amazingly, she grows, she is healed, she is matured..because she risked tearing down the walls of self-protection and trusted God to walk WITH her in her God-given responsibility. No, it is not easy.



She is his help-meet. No matter what our husbands have done in the past..if they are willing to, lay down their lives...this is the place the wife must go. Apart from his own wife, men are lost and alone...without stepping up to her role as a HELPER she will shut down her God-given ability to to see past herself. She is also the stop gap measure to keep these same sins from effecting... sons and daughters. A WIFE is the Holy Spirit SPOTLIGHT to reveal the blindness and pride that the Enemy of his soul tries to keep him from his TRUE character revealed in Christ, his destiny, his very manhood.



That is God's GLORIOUS purpose, intention, will, His own heart for a WIFE. We are to be strong and confident, prepared to HELP, armed to do battle, be led by His Spirit..a WIFE is a force to be reckoned with..of course she is...the Enemy has from the Garden tried to destroy her (seed) and HER PURPOSE.



It is lovely and perfect..it fits her. In many ways we GET to be HIS eyes and ears and heart, we understand intentions and motives...we see attitudes and unspoken things of the heart..a woman is amazing,..she can hear words he does not say, she can discern those that he utters, she knows the meaning of a glance from across a room or glances that go places they should not...she KNOWS. He NEEDS her. We watch, we look, we see the signs of the the outward man and aim God's arrow of righteousness to pierce his heart, to HELP him rearrange his thoughts, to HELP that man change. What an honor.



Yes, there is the hard realization that COVENANT for both spouses will take love, fortitude, sacrifice, mutual submission, strength, determination and commitment. Both are called to these virtues..however, both CARRY OUT God's will differently. BOTH are needed for a marriage to be blessed and happy, one that honors each other and hence brings HONOR to our God. Yes, there is a play book, a plan, purpose to God's idea of marriage. God NEEDS BOTH people to follow His revealed TRUTH.



So what about this word..."k'neg'du?" A form of the root "neg'd," it means ALL kinds of things! What would it mean in reference to an ALLY?


It means, "before, or in front of." He said my wife was to always be at the fore-front of my mind. Well, that was certainly true and useful. But it was bugging me...it had to mean even more.



The life-or-death ally...in front of me...absolutely corresponding to me...my mirror image in so many ways.



There it was...God created my wife, precisely to be the perfect life-and-death ally for me because she had ALL THE STUFF I DIDN"T HAVE! The mirror-image idea means...corresponding....where one is weak - the other is strong. Where one lacks resources - the other HAS them. Where one doesn't know the language - the other does. Where one has the strength - the other has the ability to focus it for maximum impact. Where one has the weapons - the other has the communication devices needed to coordinate the attack.



She was the LIFE-AND-DEATH ALLY who had ALL THE STUFF I didn't have in order to face the imposing and deadly enemy I had to face! (Which was NOT HER, by the way) She WAS what I was NOT. She HAD what I did NOT. She KNEW what I didn't know. God had crafted her to be the perfect STRONG ally for me.



Edited by Pure in Heart
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Guest Mrs.Clean

Joel wrote:


What we asked at the intensive is that she would include him with you in family things.. we did not ask her to have you just disappear with him. We are all about family.


Didn't your son disqualify himself from further family involvement for a season with the way he acted at the camping trip and with his OWN MOTHER?


Pink is small.. your son is LARGE and scary.



I said:

I don't believe Joel was saying that you should have no relationship with your son...but you have frequently made a point that Joel told Pink to allow you to spend time with him, and claimed she wasn't following the rules set before her because she wasknow denying you that privelege. Joel was just clarifying that he said you should spend time with your son when doing family things TOGETHER. And he was making a point that the most inappropriate time to spend time with your son would be when Pink has kicked you out. That is just rubbing salt in the wounds, and in my opinion, borders on abusive because I KNOW you are smart, and you pretend like you didn't do it to hurt her, but I believe in my heart either consciously or unconsciously, you did. Apparently, I'm not alone...and I get that idea in Joel's post, as well.


Because you are are a man who is struggling and who does not have his act together, you really should limit the time you spend with your son as well. Again, bad swimmers rescuing drowning people...


Yes, your son needs to know you care, love him and are interested in him. But honestly, you are really not a good example to him, or in a position to help him with his "rough time."



This should be clear enough on the topic of your son.


Take Care,


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Ok about my son. I did not want to just "disappear" with him. I wanted him to be involved with OUR family and to feel WELCOME in our home. He got the picture very quickly that he was not welcome. The girls love him but Pink can't stand him. I didn't expect Pink to wrestle with him or anything but at least allow me to be a dad. If he did something that i didn't catch just TELL me and I will handle it. Don't hold it against him that he is a huge teenager who is struggling to learn how to become a man.


She would tell me that if Damon was coming to our home she was leaving for the weekend. Tell me how that is following what J & K said to do????? They are ALL ABOUT FAMILY TIME remember? Making me choose between her and my son is NOT what J & K said to do....but guess what. I CHOSE HER. Time and time again I chose her.


Tell me that that she is showing me what Christ like behavior is.


Tell me that I should follow her lead down that road.


I asked you what you would do if your husband asked you to choose between the two of them. Him or your daughter. Which would you choose?


What I am asking for is to clarify in very clear cut terms what SHOULD have been happening while we were together around spending time with my son.


Another thing that hit me on the drive home tonight. She has said numerous times that she was treating ME like her ex had treated her. That I was light years above what her ex husband was and that she was so blessed to be away from her ex. But then when it came time to be intimate I got either the too tired or I'm not meeting her needs answers.


I all ready told you guys the routine of 5-6 days a week being too "tired" to make love and the other 4-5 days being the idea that I'm not meeting her needs routine.


The reaping and sowing and the ground and all of that. Isn't that why Joel says that even though the wife doesn't completely feel like it that she still needs to make love to her husband when he is being good?


That way the husband doesn't go rooting around in the garden looking for shoots...it's kind of his wife's way of telling him to stay out of the garden but he is on the right track right?


The last year and a half I have seen him maybe once every other month on average. Part of it is he is a teenager and wants to hang out with his friends I understand that. However it shouldn't be a problem with going to pick him up and take him to a movie or to take him to buy some t shirts or something. Again something that J & K told us to do.


On the flip side it is fine for Pink and her daughters to go have a girls day right? A trip to the nail salon and the movies is ok for them but hanging out doing guys stuff with my son is off limits.


I guess that I'm telling you guys straight up that I will not allow anything to come between me being a father to my son ever again. I will be available to my son and if that is too much for Pink to handle I understand.


Thank you for all of the information, it will take me awhile to read through it all and digest it completely.

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Guest Mrs.Clean



This is what Flyboy is saying:


1. I will NOT quit nursing schoo.


2. I will NOT limit my interactions with my son to what Pink feels comfortable with.


3. I will NOT allow for a 'season' of healing for Pink while I heal her so she can work on her issues.



4. I expect Pink to display Christlike behavior toward me before I will show Christlike behavior toward her.


5. I expect my marriage to operate in a "tit for tat" arrangement...I will give, but ONLY if I am given to in return. Period. What is good for Pink is good for me.


6. I will not give up anything that I deem important to me...my computer, my nursing career, my son, my porn, my sex, my, my, my.


Flyboy, I had hoped your questions were from a sincere place...and I think they were, but you allowed yourself to get offended by answers that were what you did not want to hear. So you took it all off in an argumentative direction...and we can't work with you when you are in that frame of mind.


Let me just begin to tell you how hurt I imagine your wife is if she has read this string...and how much more determined she likely is to NEVER let you back into her home or her heart.


I'm so sad for that.


You seem intent on having us give you a list of things that Pink did wrong. And I'm not going to do that. You also seem to want some sort of guarantee that she won't do those things anymore before you come back home. You don't realize that she is NOT OFFERING for you to come back home. She doesn't want you home UNLESS YOU CHANGE. Not the other way around.


As far as how long a "season" is? I don't know...but YOU don't determine that. We work with a woman who is having sex problems (or other problems) very dilligently and gently. If there comes a point when we determine that she has given up and won't TRY to get past her issues, then we address that with the man...but you were not even CLOSE to that point with Pink. The reason that she wasn't feeling comfortable having sex with you is because you were still hung up on porn. You do not acknowledge that at all in your blame filled rantings about how she had no desire for sex. How about saying, "I understand my wife had no desire for sex because I WAS INTO PORN!!!!" You do not seem to recognize that a wife can FEEL that, and it hurts her, even when she doesn't know what it is that is hurting her. Likely, Pink was kicking herself TRYING to get herself into the mood for you as often as you needed, but she just couldn't...it just wouldn't work and she couldn't figure out why...she was probably thinking something was wrong with HER...when really it was YOU...hurting her, by being into porn.


I know you have a list of excuses already prepared as to why this is wrong...you weren't actively doing porn, it was just that once, it was a friend from school who did the porn, not you (remember how blatantly you LIED when caught? Like a 4 year old), you are not a porn guy like her ex, etc. But those are just excuses to MINIMIZE in your own mind what you did. The longer you can point your finger at Pink for all that she's done wrong, the less you have to look at yourself. What we are asking you to do is STOP pointing your finger at Pink and what you think she's done wrong in the marriage...JUST look at yourself. Fix ALL of the things that are "wrong" with you and watch and see what happens.


You can only change yourself, anyway. In life, you should know that by now. You can't force change on Pink. What we are saying is based on what we know from the Bible, if YOU change yourself, then Pink will begin to self correct her issues. It is beautiful that way.


Take Care,


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Flyboy, you wrote:


She didn't need to read because as one person on here was kind enough to write....She has probably read a ton of books and so she doesn't need to read.....just focus on yourself.

Flyboy, that person was me and that is not what I said.


September 29, 2010 What I said was:


Yes, both husband and wife should be reading but chances are your wife has read enough marriage material and knows so much of this instinctively anyway that you have eons of catching up to do to get anywhere near caught up with her so don’t even go there.


I think it would be helpful if you would own that you misquoted me.


And you missed the point. If you take the focus off of pointing out every little thing you think Pink is doing wrong and focus on doing your part to HER satisfaction, I think you will get better results. She feels like you are picking her apart.


Do you believe your wife has the marriage manual? Do you trust Pink to do relationships better than you? Or have you convinced yourself Flyboy know best and Pink just needs to be fixed?


As long as you are doing porn, your wife will never measure up.



Edited by C2
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Again and again you guys give DIFFERENT instruction than what J&K say....


Case in point the reading. Aren't the instructions when we leave the intensive to keep each other on track with the reading with gentle questions of if your spouse had been able to read yet or not.


That is what I remember J & K saying at the intensive when we both signed the contract agreement. Do I remember that correctly?


You guys assume that I have been sitting like a spoiled child waiting for her to show ME something before I will show HER anything.


You ignore her own comments about how she treats me like her EX treated her...not like I treat her. That her ex husband was the list of abuses you guys were trying to apply towards me.


Also I was NOT into porn. I looked at it ONCE in a moment of weakness but that makes sense that you will apply that towards our entire marriage because it is convenient. It is far easier to blame everything on me rather than to actually look for the truth.


I am asking questions with a desire for the truth no matter what happens between Pink and I. Everyone keeps trying to turn this back to what I will or won't do for Pink rather than just letting me work through this with the answers to my questions.



I absolutely would focus on MYSELF for the month to month and a half that you all wouldn't hear from us. I hoped and prayed that SHE would begin to show some sort of sign that it was having any effect what so ever.....which is why after leaving the intensive with very very clear instructions about how only two of the issues we were to focus on I was given new energy and life.


When you guys would hear back from us is when I had the audacity to ask her if she was going to do what YOU guys were telling her to do.


I completely agree that you guys were no where near having an answer with her and I can tell you why. She has absolutely no interest in hearing what so ever about her needing to do anything different. She is very comfortable having me be the villain and her being the poor damsel in distress.


I have told you that she would look at me and tell me that there was no way she was going to do what she had just been told to do. What do you guys do with that information? Have you tried to ask her about it?


You are very correct Mrs. Clean about numbers 1 and 2. I am giving her number 3 right now. I am struggling with number 4 which I have addressed extensively. I have admitted that I give up after a 5-6 weeks of trying and then throw down the gauntlets.


The last part is a little bit of a jab but that's cool. I will NOT give up my son no matter what. Either we figure out how to work him into the relationship or we don't have a relationship. I find it interesting that you won't answer my question about what YOU would do if you were in that situation.


I understand that Pink isn't asking me to come home, I am trying to tell you guys that even if the whole career conversation was settled that there are way to many other issues at play to just assume that everything is going to work out. I am trying to learn my part in this whole thing and trust God that I am doing the right thing.


I like the numbered format. That's a great way to focus the conversation.


I absolutely apologize if it is coming across snippy or angry or what ever it was that you are picking up. I'm trying to get through all of the misconceptions and falsehoods that surround our marriage and then when what you guys are telling me doesn't line up with Joel and Kathy it gets even more confusing.


I'm going to take a few days here to back away from writing on here. Well I'm going to try to anyways, silence isn't exactly my strong point. I just want to make sure that I am not taking this personal or responding to you all out of my flesh. You guys have given me some fabulous information that I need to mull over and absorb before I take us back off on another confusing goat trail. I am also going to reach out to that counselor that you suggested.


Would you be so kind as to ask Pink if she would be willing to talk to her together? I'm not sure if going by myself will do much good....there are always two sides to the story and despite what I led you to believe I do want to get healing for my marriage. If I didn't love her I wouldn't spend all of this time on here fighting for the truth and consistency.


Anyways thanks again and I apologize deeply for coming across less than cooperative or argumentative.

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Really quickly I just thought of something.


It's not a big deal but was just wondering if it has been acknowledged that she still has access to all of my accounts. That despite all of this I haven't tried to cut her off from verifying that I am not being inappropriate.


My thought was that if I remain open then it could be a place to start the healing process. I know it's a really minor thing over all but with her trust issues I just figured it would be at least a starting point.


I miss my family deeply and am very aware that I could lose them forever. I am not making this choice lightly to remain in the program. I have tried to explain but in the end it doesn't really matter.


Unfortunately the world doesn't accept the love between a husband and wife as payment.

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Couple of things real quick. I found a place for Charlie but they can't take him until next weekend. The kennel they have needs fixed and they will get it done this week. So not sure if there is any way that Pink can hold out that long?


The other thing that I wanted to say was that I am sorry to Pink for slipping back in to the habit of throwing her under the bus. My intention was not to make her look bad, drag her through the mud or list all of the ways that she had been less than perfect but I understand that is exactly what I wound up doing and I apologize deeply for that. She is truly an amazing and beautiful woman.


Has anyone gotten a chance to ask Pink if she would be willing to go through that counselor that Mrs. Clean suggested?


I am trying to find a starting point for Pink and I to begin working back towards each other. If we could TOGETHER come up with a plan that would provide a future for our children I would be willing to drop the program. The plan has to come first before I will just drop out though. That is something that I have been discussing with people that I trust.


Anyways I wanted to again apologize to Pink for not loving her like I should have and getting away from what is important.

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Well just got served with the divorce papers. I had hoped and prayed that Pink would be willing to go to that counselor Mrs. Clean suggested but I guess she feels the marriage was too far gone to continue to work on.


The man that I have been meeting with every Friday for guidance is a leader in our church familiar with J&K's teachings. He has been an amazing advocate for my marriage and a man that I believe Pink trusts.


No matter what happens between Pink and I, I plan to continue meeting with him to further my spiritual growth and pray that God will open her heart to private counseling.


Anyways just wanted to say thanks for all of the hard work and effort that so many have put in to my marriage, I am sorry that it didn't work out like we all hoped.

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Mrs Clean did NOT recommend a counselor for you two to get PRIVATE COUPLES counseling.


She recommended one to speak to YOURSELF.


Pink is following our recommendations to NOT attend ANY private counseling with you.


You have chosen your career over your marriage. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CHANGE THAT FACT ON THIS FORUM.


This has NOTHING to do with "PINK" not being willing to do ANYTHING. It has ONLY to do with YOUR PORNOGRAPHY PROBLEM and YOUR BEING UNWILLING TO GIVE UP YOUR SCHOOLING AND CAREER that is ONLY a "safe" career for a guy who does not have a history of Pornography.


And to repeat: Amazing how you told us all REPEATEDLY that you have MANY problems.. but that PORNOGRAPHY was NOT one of them!


No more attempts at recreating history here.


We are still looking for the second payment of $295 for the Intensive. Please make the check payable to Joel and Kathy Davisson and send it to:


244 Pine Grove Drive

Palm Coast, Florida 32164

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I would think that you guys being so PRO marriage would want ALL options to be exhausted before a divorce, not just what you FEEL should or should not happen.


ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN GOD. Even if I did have a porn problem like you suggest wouldn't it be possible for God to heal and protect that? Or are you saying that it is too much for even God to help me stay pure? That our only option is to find a career that doesn't include interacting with women.


Next question for you, what would you suggest as a career that would be suitable for a lowly "porn" guy?



You guys have continually made something out of nothing and that night when I lied to Pink it wasn't because I was afraid of getting caught it was because I was afraid that all of our problems would be chalked up to my "porn" problem when it was nonexistent. You guys over and over again want to paint everything with such a broad brush and say that because I stumbled on one occasion it means that my family and I should be punished financially for it for the rest of our lives.


Does Pink know that your viewpoint on this is that we need to be broken and desolate financially as part of our "healing". Has anyone else thought about the fact that when her parents pass away that we will have no place to live? No real income? No health insurance for our children? Not even a chance for a future?


I have stated over and over that I know my wife and I know what her expectations are for life. Living financially poor with no hope for a future will NOT create that life long bond.


I am NOT saying Pink is at fault or that I am a great person what I am saying however is that all too often you guys have gotten just a part of the story because you are too busy to keep up with 100% of it and then you make snap judgments based on some preconceived notion of reality. THAT is why I wanted to go to a private counselor, somebody that was actually trained in counseling and able to focus on OUR issues without bringing in their own hurts, thoughts or feelings. I was excited when Mrs. Clean told me about this private counselor who went along with your guys' teachings. What is the problem with that Joel? Why is it such a hard thing for you to not be in control?


As you guys have REPEATEDLY said, it is NOT healthy for a man to go alone to a private counselor because they only reinforce the selfishness. Remember that? So are you now saying that is what I should do? You drove that point home in the intensive, which is correct now?


I also said that I would be willing to sit down and talk with her about a career plan BEFORE I just dropped out of the program. Doesn't the bible say something about making a plan before you try to build a house? Do you think that instruction was to just healthy people wanting to decide on three bedrooms or four or maybe to a couple in our situation?


I don't know how to paint the picture for you Joel without looking like I am throwing Pink under the bus which is another reason I wanted to be able to build a relationship with a counselor who had the time to focus on us. I am not blaming this on you guys, you are busy trying to build your ministry. There are things going on, statements being made that I have let go because I was told to do so by the counselors here. Then when I talk to you you blast me for not saying them.


So how do I paint the picture Joel.


I asked for a fairly simple step. Pink and I talk and figure out a plan for life, that didn't include nursing school and also didn't include living in a van by the river.


Why was that such a bad thing to ask?

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Flyboy - we told you what you should have done LONG ago - if what you claimed about Pink is true.


For future reference for anyone reading our forum:


If a wife would say to her husband, "I don't care what Joel and Kathy say" or "I don't care what I just agreed to do on a group call" - then that husband would IMMEDIATELY pick the phone back up and say "my wife has something that she needs to share with you." - either to the helpers if on a call, or if it is with us on a call. If that were to happen at an intensive, then that husband would immediately let us know that his wife has something to share with us.


We cannot imagine a scenario where a husband would have his wife say to him, "I am not going to do what I just agreed to do" and that husband would then not let us know. It would certainly be a good "setup" for a man to lie in wait until things go belly up and have something that he could point to, to put blame on his wife.


Obviously, in a marriage where a husband and wife are reaching out for help, and claiming to want the marriage, then both the husband and wife must do what they are asked to do in order to see that recovery happen.


We simply cannot accept your (apparantly) well thought out plan to "lie in wait" for the moment when you would want to "spring" this information out of hiding to deflect from yourself and make negative attention go onto Pink.


As a ministry, we spent three hours on a GROUP call with one of our wives - calling her to accountability. Thankfully, there has been a complete turnaround. However, that came because the husband continued to do his part while her errors would come to the surface and we were able to help her. In another case, Kathy and I had numerous conversations with another wife who would not follow our recommendations. She is gone from the ministry. We do not validate any time that a wife would say "my husband has to follow the recommendations but I am not going to." - however - in your "twilight" zone - we can't even take you serious because you did not "spring" this on your wife until after you had downloaded a porn movie.


You had an opportunity - to drop the schooling - and you chose not to do so. Using your "stored up" information to make yourself look good on the way out is not acceptable.


I had informed you how to handle yourself if what you were saying about Pink was true after she kicked you out the first time after the intensive. I told you to humbly repent, win her heart back, get things back on track - and if we were working with you as a couple in the future and Pink would say "I am not going to do that" concerning our advice - that you would let us know immediately by coming back on a call and letting the helpers know that she had something she needed to say concerning the advice she was just given.


Instead, you downloaded porn - and the rest is history.


I watched "strip-tease" with Demi Moore in the middle of the night a few YEARS after our recovery began. It was a stupid moment. However, I did NOT then DEMAND the right to leave Kathy and the children and then for me to go away by myself and put myself into temptation. I took the family with me as we traveled as a family in our secular sales work - or I took at least one of the children so that I would not be alone. That was my "walking with a limp". You do not walk with a limp. You even shared with me how you (in our definition of the word) flirt with the girls at the school. Our definition is what you would consider to be "just being friendly".


So what is the difference between your walk and mine? I was willing to walk with a limp.


We have asked Pink to apologize to you if she did indeed say "I am not going to do that" when we asked her to participate in the recovery. That is up to her to remember if there were any times that she told you that she was not going to do what we asked her to do.


As for your son - she had VERY good reasons for not wanting to be with you when you were going to be with him. He was scary. He knocked her over once if I recall correct. He was treating his mother in scary ways. Pink went camping with you and him and the rest of the family and he was acting in ways to make her afraid.


We and many people in our ministry invested a lot of time in you two. Your history was to come when you were in crisis and then disappear for long stretches. You then did not pay for your full intensive (surprise to us as the second payment was to be paid when you got here) but we accepted your promise to pay later. We are just "like that". Easy going. Sadly that never got paid. You did join the men's group for a few months.. and then later told me that the three months of being in the men's group was your way of paying the $295. That made sense to you in some odd way. I explained to you that the money for the men's group goes into a completely different slot than the $295 for the intensive. The $295 you owe for the intensive is for your dinner, Temperament analysis, powerpoint screens, DVD set and your share of the room rental fee for the meeting room. That payment was to go into the book account - where all of these expenses come from. That money still has not been received.

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Hey Joel I know you don't have the time to go back and read through my posts, but I did try to forward to you several occasions in the past where your helpers told me to be quiet and quit saying anything about her not being intimate. You would hardly ever respond to my emails no matter the content so I never knew if they were getting to you. I understand that you are a busy guy, but to sit there and blame me that your helpers are giving conflicting guidance is a little unfair.


I tried to point things out in a way that I didn't come across like I was trying to point the finger at Pink.


I am still trying to figure out how to address the issues that were happening because obviously I did not handle myself in a Christ like manner and wound up reaping those seeds.


I am not blaming things on Pink, just wanting to be clear here. I know that the fight is not with her or with you but with Satan who despises anything good and healthy. He knew right where to attack us, he knew just what would hurt the other one and we both let him win.


I am not giving up. Pink I still love you no matter what happens. I understand that you are protecting yourself and are afraid to trust. I am sorry for the hurtful things that I have said, I am still trying to learn what the line is.



You needed a strong leader and instead you got me. I don't know if I was a post-Matt rebound or if there was truly love for me in your heart. Either way I loved you the best way that I knew how and I am sorry for not listening to your heart more.



I never understood how you can say something, but then that was off limits to only certain other people in our lives. To me it was all fair game, what ever I did. I didn't want anything hidden I just wanted the whole truth be told.


I will finish reading what you wrote Joel, sorry I didn't get past the first couple of lines. If I responded to something you wrote all ready forgive me.


I also wanted real quick to say that I don't hate you nor am I mad at you. You guys are trying to help, my frustration lies in the fact that you think that you have all of the answers when there is confusion in your very ministry that aggravated an all ready stressed situation.


If you would like to get on the side some time and talk about it I would be open to that. The reason I say that is because I do not want to seem like I am trying to blame shift, drag you guys down, or come off as a tattle tail. I do however want you to be aware of the issues that I faced with going between several helpers at once and their "advice" differing from your guidance.

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Joel there are a lot of things that I think you need to know but am limited on saying because I am completely confused about what I am supposed to say and what is off limits.


I am not trying to make myself look “good”, by now you should know me better than that. I don’t give a hoot about what you all think about me. I fought hard for the truth because you guys were only reinforcing her hurts rather than soothing them.


You make it sound like I downloaded the porn after I got home. I downloaded it in a very dark time of my life when I didn’t think there was any hope. After I spoke to you and confided in you about the two worlds of living with Pink and it was reconfirmed to me that it was OK for me to say something if Pink wasn’t holding up her end of the bargain it gave me a new energy and hope. (Unlike what I was being told on the forums just to clarify).


Holy cow Joel. You watched Strip Tease and your wife was WILLING to go away with you. She was WILLING to be uncomfortable for the sake of your marriage. It wasn't anything amazing that you did it was because your wife wouldn’t allow anything to come between you two. Imagine if she had somebody in her ear telling her that you needed to quit your job or be divorced instead of following you and TRUSTING you like she did. Not sure where you were going with that, if that was pointed at me or if you have me confused with somebody else. There is more there as well I want to say but won’t because it will just make matters worse.


Yes Joel you clarified how 99% of the world flirts with each other. What does God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit say about A nod and a slight smile on your way past somebody to acknowledge that they exist in this world?

What is crazy for a “porn” guy who was getting all of his needs met by the women at school is that I stopped even doing that. I was that big black ship that you told me to be.


I walked with a limp as well. I went home straight after school. I didn’t participate in study groups or hang out with my peers. I didn’t go to school early. I separated myself from my peers at school because of my past and because of my wife’s hurts.


Not sure when you asked her to apologize but haven’t heard a peep from her nor do I expect one. I didn’t need her to be drug out in the street and tarred and feathered over it. I needed to see her be committed to changing herself as much as she was committed to changing me. I’m going to stop there because I am going to go back down that road and it leads to nowhere. This is another place where you are completely fooled and in the dark but it will do me no good to talk to you about it, especially on here. I have begged and begged for somebody to go on the side in the men’s section to talk about this and over and over again I get told by the helpers that that is not allowed.


“As for your son - she had VERY good reasons for not wanting to be with you when you were going to be with him. He was scary. He knocked her over once if I recall correct. He was treating his mother in scary ways. Pink went camping with you and him and the rest of the family and he was acting in ways to make her afraid.”


Ok Joel so what is it that you are telling me there? I don’t recall him knocking her down, maybe on accident while we were wrestling or something? I would love to know more about that, maybe I am just forgetting something? My question this whole time has been what I was supposed to do around my son. Here again Joel is an area that I have many questions on, with background information that you are not aware of. An area again that I would love to get on the side with you and discuss with you. I know it won’t happen but I can always dream right? I know however that God doesn't want me to just abandon my son because he is difficult which is something that I thought we had figured out at the intensive but I guess not.


He was on some different medications for a while that had some negative side effects, but they have him on some good stuff now. I am not condoning his behavior I am stating a fact.


What I love the most Joel is how you drag the money in to this. I told you that I had tried to get ahold of you after the intensive and that I could never catch up to you. I also told you that I had continued to pay YOU for a service that I did not use. I told you that I continued to pay for the men’s call when I was not on it because I owed you money. After the 3 months at 100 dollars per month were paid I asked to quit being charged because I was no longer on the men’s call and I had paid you back the 300 that we owed you. I had no idea that it was a different account within your ministry that the money goes in to. My point being that I tried to contact you to clarify that and just like in the past I could not reach you. Again not your fault that you are a busy guy, but neither is it my fault. I would have discontinued the men’s call while I paid you back the money we owed you but instead am on the hook for another 300 because you were unavailable to answer a text or email.


Funny thing is that you told me to do the same exact thing after I talked to you about it. In order to pay you back you said to pay 100 a month for the men’s call and that YOU would tell the secretary that the money was supposed to go to a different fund. When YOU suggested it, it was not only acceptable it was AMAZING, but since I had tried that then I am demented or something.


The last part that I am going to address is that I agreed to pay you 100 per month for access to the men’s call and after three months the second half of the intensive would be paid for. There has been a lot happening with the bank account that I have no problem talking to you about Joel but I am not going to drag it out here. I do not want to continue to hurt Pink believe it or not. So think of me what you want, write on here whatever you want but Pink, God and I know the truth behind all of this.


I will get you your money as soon as things are “settled” and I can rely on the money being where I left it so to speak.

Anyways thanks again, I know you guys all put in a ton of effort and time into our marriage. I still think it is worth saving and using all available avenues before we throw it in the garbage but it's not up to me.

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Guest Mrs.Clean



This weekend was your weekend with Sarah, but since Pink didn't hear from you (until 10:05 this morning), she made other plans. Please in the future, make sure to contact Pink 48 hours before you are to meet to pick up Sarah. That will help keep things clear for both of you and make things more comfortable for Sarah as well.



Take Care,


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What I love the most Joel is how you drag the money in to this. I told you that I had tried to get ahold of you after the intensive and that I could never catch up to you. I also told you that I had continued to pay YOU for a service that I did not use. I told you that I continued to pay for the men’s call when I was not on it because I owed you money. After the 3 months at 100 dollars per month were paid I asked to quit being charged because I was no longer on the men’s call and I had paid you back the 300 that we owed you. I had no idea that it was a different account within your ministry that the money goes in to. My point being that I tried to contact you to clarify that and just like in the past I could not reach you. Again not your fault that you are a busy guy, but neither is it my fault. I would have discontinued the men’s call while I paid you back the money we owed you but instead am on the hook for another 300 because you were unavailable to answer a text or email.


Funny thing is that you told me to do the same exact thing after I talked to you about it. In order to pay you back you said to pay 100 a month for the men’s call and that YOU would tell the secretary that the money was supposed to go to a different fund. When YOU suggested it, it was not only acceptable it was AMAZING, but since I had tried that then I am demented or something.


The last part that I am going to address is that I agreed to pay you 100 per month for access to the men’s call and after three months the second half of the intensive would be paid for.


We answer all of our emails. Occasionally one slips through - but we don't want people to email us privately who have been in the ministry and forum for a long time - that is what the forum and group calls are for... for ongoing help. Our email is constantly hit with people who are brand new, asking for help - that we answer and our phone rings regularly with people who are brand new, asking for help.


If you want to email us something, simply post it on the forum and send us a link to it.


I absolutely do not remember saying for you to be in the men's group to cover the $295 balance on the intensive. I absolutely DO remember asking you about the payment and you letting me know that you only had enough money for Jenifer to babysit and would be paying us ASAP. There is no reason on this planet that I would offer you to pay the men's group fee and that would pay for your intensive. If that were to be the case, then we would be allowing all of our men to come for free. I simply would not have said that to you. That would not have been "fair" to the other guys on the men's call. I did a "mental gymnastic" in my mind when you said you could not pay the balance so that I would not react negatively - and trusted you to pay later. However, I would not have said for you to just pay the men's group for three months.


Why didn't you take advantage of the men's calls? That is the question.. you were "claiming" to be part of the men's calls - again, looking good on the outside.. but not even being on the calls? We don't control that.. only you can dial the call.

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Individual counseling? That was with a counselor who understands abusive guys - to help you get your thinking straight - since you were not getting it understood here.




1. You twisted the situation about the marriage counselor around to make it look like we just recommmended divorce without pursuing all options.

2. You presented that I told you to pay the men's group for 3 months instead of the $295. Something that would have been completely counter-intuitive and counter productive.

3. You continue to claim that I do not answer emails.

4. You claim that you tried to "get ahold" of me after the intensive.


You present these things as "facts".


No wonder your wife gets driven so up the wall with frustration.


We understand that you two are back together.


I presume that we will be hearing from you both again in a few months when you hit crisis again.


Hopefully the "shaking up" that we have done and the communications that have gone on over the months on the forum and group calls will help this "season" to last longer before the next crisis time.


and yes - please do keep your word to send the second payment for the intensive. For those looking on: That second payment goes to cover the costs of the intensive - the dinner, DVD set, Temperament analysis, two sets of powerpoint screens in notebooks. We do not offer to people to come to the intensive and not make the second payment. That was "sprung" on us. We graciously accepted the promise to pay the $295 asap - a promise that was made many months ago now.


I told you that I had tried to get ahold of you after the intensive and that I could never catch up to you. I also told you that I had continued to pay YOU for a service that I did not use.


This is a lie, flyboy. You were paying for the men's group. You could have "got ahold" of me three times per week after the intensive. You did NOT "try to get ahold" of me. Everyone knows how accessible that we are.

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Yeah, Joel is SO hard to get ahold of that I emailed him at about 2am and had an answer this morning.


Oh, I know! Maybe we're special, and he only does that for his helpers! Yeah, that's it! :blink:


Give us a break, flyboy. At least come up with a believable lie. :angry:

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Hey Joel I am sorry that we are obviously remembering things differently but I would very much appreciate in the future to have the money conversation on the side. It really feels like to me you are trying to humiliate me by bringing this out here on the forum. When would be a good time to contact you so that we can talk about this and come to an agreement without dragging this into the public eye.


I made you a promise and I will keep that promise. We were on a shoe string budget, and had some very unexpected things occur right before the intensive that would have kept us from making it. We did the best we could at the time and I am sorry that has caused you so much grief. We felt that it was Satan working against having us go and that we had to make sure that no matter what we went. Again, I am sorry that it affected you so much and we will make this right.


I understand your fears about us going dark like we have in the past. Pink and I have promised each other to continue seeking help through your forum but like everything else my actions will be the only thing that proves other wise.


Yes Pink and I are back together, which proves that God is great and anything can happen through him. You guys have more valid points than not and I am sorry for fighting with you guys as much as I have. All to often I have let my flesh get in the way of learning. I have been working on that for awhile and will continue to fight that battle but I do want to say that your time and effort has been appreciated and has had a positive effect on me.


Thanks again and hope to hear from you soon.

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