Confused about what I should or should not do and why?

[Chrysallis]

OK fair enough, at the point of marriage, they don't intend to abuse their wives.................I can go along with this.

 

But porn? You defending someone's participating in porn as he didn't know it was abusive? Do I have you correct on that?

 

The bigger and more complicated issue the question he asked about covenant marriage is what I thought you might clarify for both of us.

[TimothyPaul]

But porn? You defending someone's participating in porn as he didn't know it was abusive? Do I have you correct on that?

 

No, sin is sin. God's Word says He puts in our hearts the ability to know right from wrong. Sin is a choice. - Even a small child that steals a petty item, will feel guilt. We may mask that guilt with justification, but our hearts know the truth.

 

Depending on the nature of a husbands abuse though, we may not recognize it as sin. If we grow up our whole lives learning that a behavior is acceptable, even though deep inside our hearts, we sense something is wrong, it may be difficult to identify it.

 

Working on the streets in New York City, I was always seeing incredible abusing of women physically. (i.e - think the construction workers). So for me, being that I was not "that bad", my second looks and wondering eyes, were not sinful. I was not breaking the commandment of adultery. It wasn't until I dug into the gospels and learned what Jesus really defined was adultery, that I realized I was no different, no better then the workers. It was an unpleasant eye opener.

 

The covenant of marriage... ahh, this is a tough one. Let no man break on earth, what is bound in heaven. I don't know if you had the opportunity to read my thoughts on the covenant. It is holy. It is pure. Because the covenant of marriage occurs before satan brought down Adam and Eve, there is something about that bond that transcends all. It is the only facet of God, we as flesh can ever enjoy that is free from the evil of this world. That is the true covenant. It superceedes all. While God is the beginning and the end of the universe. Marriage is the beginning and the end for the human.

 

I know on Ira's thread the Malachi has been discussed a lot. I try not to look at any particular scripture and have it stand on its own merits. I believe we have to use all the scriptures to determine the intent. When we take Malachi for example and combine it with Paul's discourse on marriage, then the Malachi gives the direction God intents. Or even if we look at Pauls discussions on the mind. Dealing treacherously is a state of the heart. If a man is called to agape love his wife, then regardless of what she does (even remarry) the husband can not carry forth any of his hurts that would cause him to deal "treacherously". I find it interesting, that wives of the youth is used. It almost is saying to me, that even if a remarriage occurs, that the original wife, still must be treated with the reverence she deserves. Again, contrary to cultural teachings. We are taught that when a wife remarries, the husband is free. For me, the verdict is still out on that one.

 

So, if we take the different scriptures, combine them all to make a cohesive thought about God's intent, His will, His design, I think there is the possibility that we as humans can not break that covenant. Yes, as flesh, the man breaks the covenant by not living up to is vows. If then the woman finalizes that action legally on this world. But the actions of both parties, are of this world, committed after satan has planted his seeds. The covenant in Heaven, is not bound by this world, and therefore still stands.

[AzMike]

Good morning Ira,

I have never seen someone vacillate as much as you do. I think the reason is you KNOW the truth but wish it was something else. You WANT your freedom to do as you will but you KNOW GOD has a different plan.

When faced with God's will you become obstinate with everyone here just trying to HELP you. We can find combative people any where they are not a rarity trust me on this one.

The people that come here to help are a rarity.

Throw away your stubbornness Ira it will get you no where fast...I know and I know it is a LONG way back.

Don't miss out on God's best because you THINK you know best.

 

I still pray for you Ira, I KNOW God creates miracles because I AM ONE!

 

In Honor and Truth

Michael

[J_W]

THE DEFINITION OF LOVE

A. THE GREEK WORD IS AGAPE...

1. One of four Greek words translated love

a. philia - the love of close friends or brothers

b. storge - the love of family

c. eros - carnal or sexual love

d. agape - love which seeks the highest good of others

1) Not just friends, family, or brethren, but even enemies

-Mt 5:44

2) Thus it is a higher form of love than "brotherly

kindness" (love of brothers)

2. It can be said that agape love:

a. Does not depend upon the one being loved as having earned

such love

b. Is not an exclusive love (brothers only), but an

all-embracing benevolence

c. Is not an uncontrolled reaction of the heart, but a

concentrated exercise of will

d. Is a caring love, one which becomes involved in the needs of

others

-- Perhaps the simplest definition is the one often given:

"active good will"

 

B. BEST EXEMPLIFIED BY THE FATHER AND THE SON...

1. God the Father demonstrated agape love

a. His love for sinners is completely undeserved by them - Rom 5:8

b. Naturally, His love is called a "great" love - Eph 2:4-7

2. God the Son demonstrated agape love

a. By laying down His20life for us - 1 Jn 3:16

b. There is no "greater" love - Jn 15:13

-- Truly the Father and the Son have exemplified "active good

will" towards all!

http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/know/know_09.htm

 

"but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. For even theSon of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" Mark 10:43, 45

 

How does Jesus nourish and cherish the church?

listening: 1 John 5:15

anticipates needs &desires before we ask Matthew 6:8

supplies our needs Phil 4:19

forgives and defends us 1 John 2:1-2

understands us: Heb 2:18, 4:15

our comforter: John 16:7

comforts us in our afflictions: 2 Cor 1:4

helps us: John 16:7

protects us (He's on our side): Rom 8:31

cares for us: Matt 6:26-33

gives security Matt 11:28-29

trusts us: Mark 16:15-18

we know we'll receive those things we ask of Him: 1 John 3:22, 1 John 5:14-15, Luke 11:9

 

these are just a FEW of the describers of "agape" love --- why not delve into God's Word about what ALL "agape-love" means since we KNOW that the "agape-loving" your bride IS what the focus should be.

 

 

2 Timothy 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth."

 

Ephesians 5

25 Husbands, love (agape) your wives, just as Christ agape-loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love (agape) their wives as their own bodies. He who loves (agape) his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church for we are members of his body. "For this reason aman will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love (agape) his wife as he loves himself,...

 

 

to love as Christ loved the church???

1John 4:19 "We love (Him) because He first loved us."

(husbands are to love first, then the wife will love in return)

"The head (kephale) of every man is Christ, the head (kephale) of woman is man, and the head (kephale) of Christ is God." 1 Corinthians 11:3

"kephale": the Latin-base is referring to military style or chain of command, HOWEVER, in the original Greek it means "SOURCE OF LIFE"

(per The Victor Bible Background New Testament) (This makes sense when realizing the Christ is not inferior to God, but rather co-equals with different roles in carrying out the plan of salvation)

 

Colossians 3:19 (KJV)

"Husbands, love (agape) your wives, and be not bitter against them."

 

Do you think that the Lord wants husbands to agape love their wives???? YES.... FIVE times the husband is told to "agapao" love his wife....

It's "agapao" - Godly love

"For God so loved the world that He gave..." "Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her..."

 

 

Ira, please tell me how THIS statement is of "agape-love" ??

She has as much entitlement to the money I earn as I have to the money she earns.

 

http://www.jacksequeira.org/luvofgod.htm

http://www.arlev.co.uk/loveofgod.htm

http://www.ezilon.com/articles/articles/7675/1/God-is-Agape-Love

http://www.propheticrevelation.net/agape_divinelove.htm

 

Why not spend time searching the scriptures and yourSELF about what agape-love is SUPPOSED to be?

 

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

 

"It is a snare for a man to devote something as holy, and afterward to reconsider his vows." Proverbs 20:25 Marriage vows are HOLY.

 

Like I've been told, "she lived with me and knows me better then anyone". I also lived with her and know her better then anyone; something that everyone here who have never exchanged a single word with her doesn't seem to want to acknowledge.

Just when exactly was it that you were "living with understanding of your wife" the one you KNOW so well ??

 

on a separate note re: TP's comments on the wife of one's youth ==

Jacob loved Rachel and yet got tricked into marrying Leah FIRST --- Leah was the UNloved wife, HOWEVER

Providence

Leah, on the other hand, gave Jacob six sons and a daughter. Although she had not been part of Jacob's plans, Leah was a most important component in God's plan, for from her body leapt the royal and priestly bloodlines of the realm. Leah's third son, Levi, became the primogenitor of Israel's priesthood, including Moses, Aaron, Zachary, and John the Baptist. Her fourth son, Judah, was the ancestor of the house of David, the kingly family, including ‘Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ’ (Matthew 1.16). Indeed, the Lord was looking out for Leah.

We have here a biblical example of God's use of someone's deception as an instrument of his providence. Indeed, there is a special irony to Leah's story in this respect. If Jacob thought Laban's substitution of Leah for Rachel in the marriage bed had been a bit too undercover (so to speak), he should know. Jacob, intimately acquainted with all manner of underhanded activity, had barely removed the disguise by which he deceived his father Isaac and stole the blessing intended for Esau. Having pulled that little trick to the disadvantage of an older brother, there was some justice in Jacob's being tricked, in turn, to the advantage of an older sister. And the Lord was at work in it all. Just as God had used Jacob's deception of Isaac as a means to accomplish his salvific will, he used Laban's deception of Jacob for the same purpose.

Finally, it was Leah, not Rachel, who would lie buried beside Jacob her husband in the cave of the field of Machpelah, before Mamre, in the inheritance of Judah, her fourth-born.

http://www.trushare.com/94Mar03/MR03REAR.htm

 

This should be a clear example that God WANTS husbands to NOT deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. period. AND that God IS going to have the final say in the matter in the long run -- why not just do it HIS way to begin with?

I've been taught by this ministry that I need to listen to my wife. I'm going to do just that.

What this says to me is that Ira is only going to listen to the WORDS of his wife... and NOT the feelings of them, not the history of them, and is then also going to blame her for saying "it is over, find another wife" --

 

It would be in error on our part to allow you to wallow in the self-pity and the self-righteousness attitude that you are also exhibiting -- "I've done all I could and she still won't talk to me" -- (hey, I understand this attitude, I am working through this with my adult daughter, and it IS tough) .... the truth is that you have not YET done all you can do -- for you have already given yourself an "out" and have started sharing yourself with other women (not sexually, I understand that), but even with a casual emotional relationship of friends with OTHER women is for your own SELF, and is NOT helping in the cause of "agape-loving" your bride

 

and you know what?

This ministry is NOT about hashing out all of the ideas about what the scriptures teach about marriage, and may the best "argument" - the "best debater" win.

 

nope - not at all.

 

I do have compassion for you -- this IS a painful place to be in your life -- you have been experiencing the real pain of it for about 16 months --- and L went through it for about 240 months. what is fair about that?

 

 

prayerfully,

June of

Edited July 16, 2011 by June & Ward

[J_W]

WHEN GOD RAN

 

Almighty God, the great I am

Immovable rock, omnipotent, powerful, awesome Lord

Victorious warrior, commanding King of Kings

Mighty conqueror, and the only time

the only time I ever saw Him run

 

CHORUS:

Was when He ran to me, He took me in His arms

Held my head to His chest, said “My son’s come home again”

Lifted my face, wiped the tears from my eyes

With forgiveness in His voice He said,

“Son do you know I still love you?”

He caught me by surprise when God ran

 

The day I left home I knew I’d broken His heart

And I wondered then if things could ever be the same

Then one night I remembered His love for me

And down that dusty road ahead I could see

It was the only time – it was the only time I ever saw Him run

 

And then He ran to me, He took me in His arms

Held my head to His chest, said “My son’s come home again”

Lifted my face, wiped the tears from my eyes

With forgiveness in His voice He said,

“Son do you know I still love you?”

He caught me by surprise as He brought me to my knees

When God ran – I saw Him run to me

 

BRIDGE:

I was so ashamed, all alone and so far away

But now I know He’s been waiting for this day

 

I saw Him run to me, He took me in His arms

Held my head to His chest, said “My son’s come home again”

Lifted my face, wiped the tears from my eyes

With forgiveness in His voice I felt His love for me again

 

He ran to me, He took me in His arms

Held my head to His chest, said “My son’s come home again”

Lifted my face, wiped the tears from my eyes

With forgiveness in His voice He said, “Son”, He called me Son

He said, “Son do you know I still love you?”

He ran to me and then I ran to Him

When God ran

 

Phillips, Craig And Dean

 

I am praying, Ira, that L is going to realize your agape-love for her -- and that when she does you will "run to her" (without condemnation of her delay, without being judgmental of her other relationships or choices, without expectation of her) -- just as in this song of the agape-love of the Father for His son, the Father who waited... (now, obviously, this is a bit different in an abusive marriage relationship, for you are the one who has hurt L for years, and are now learning HOW to show agape-love to her while she is no longer around)

[TimothyPaul]

For even young people tire and drop out, young folk in their prime stumble and fall. But those who wait upon GOD get fresh strength. They spread their wings and soar like eagles, They run and don't get tired, they walk and don't lag behind.

(Isa 40:30-31 MSG)

 

Because you kept my Word in passionate patience, I'll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon, and all over the earth, every man, woman, and child put to the test. I'm on my way; I'll be there soon. Keep a tight grip on what you have so no one distracts you and steals your crown.

(Rev 3:10-11 MSG)

Edited July 17, 2011 by TimothyPaul

[4GodsGirls]

Hello Ira,

 

I have read your most recent postings and I am grieved. Have you noticed that your lack of faith has been consistent from day one? One day you are all in, then a short time later out, then unsure, and round and round we go. Oh Ye of little faith! You can tell how much faith a person has by their words & their actions! You have not even made it to YOUR finish line "Date of 2 years" before thinking, speaking, & living in unfaith/UNBELIEF!!! Doesn't HIS WORD say the the double minded man is unstable and will receive nothing???

 

Your words and your new lifestyle of dining (um, can anyone look up the definition of a date?) with women are not those of a faithful, single-minded man trying to woo his wife back. They are the actions of a man more concerned about getting his own needs met in the here and now. You may not realize it, but, by talking to women outside of the forum about L. you are feeding off the sympathy you are getting from them and developing emotional bonds. Didn't you give your word to a specified time period of trying to win your wife back? So, L. is under the impression that for a certain amount of time you are trying to win her back... and this is what it looks like? This is how she is made to feel special??? This is how she should see you putting her needs above your own???

 

What does the Word say about being Luke-warm, or double-minded, or doubtful? OPEN YOUR EYES! You have one foot on each side of the fence! Oy! This should not be! Make a conscious decision to stand firmly on one side or the other. Make a Free Will choice, and then stick to it no matter what the circumstances may look like on the outside. There are many examples in the bible where situations looked hopeless from man's point of view, but remember that God is looking for and works with faith! Isn't that why Caleb & Joshua entered the promised land & the others did not?

 

I know, I know, now you are going to say that God is not going to mess with L.'s free will. That is very true and accurate. But YOU can make a DECISION to have FAITH, and then work with that faith with all your heart. Then stop thinking of yourself, your needs, & your desires and start LOVING L. BY PRAYING FOR HER COMPLETE HEALING from all the hurt and trauma that has been heaped upon her!

 

I know, I know, now you are going to say that your situation is far worse than most other people's here because L. moved as far away from you as she possibly could and doesn't want any contact other than for financial reasons. Ok, it may look like things just got to impossible or hopeless, but YOU SHOULD REMAIN STEADY AND HAVE FAITH. FAITH IS SO IMPORTANT!!!

 

Go and read Matt. 15:21-28 carefully. This situation by all appearances looks bad, and then the things Jesus says to her make it look all but impossible! Really, look what Jesus says to her! But, she held on to her faith & look what happened!

 

V.21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon.

V.22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon."

 

So here we have a woman asking Jesus for mercy and healing. She is also verbally expressing Faith in Him by calling Him "O Lord, Son of David". What was Jesus’ reaction to the words of this woman?

 

V.23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us."

 

Hmmm... She just got silence from God, and now the disciples are begging Jesus to send her away. Things are definitely not looking good here for this woman.

 

V.24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

Jesus finally speaks and basically tells her that He is not sent to help her. Now watch her response Ira!

 

V.25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."

 

First...humility by worshipping Him. Second, she did not give up or waiver on her faith just because of what she is experiencing in the here and now. If you think it could not get any worse for this woman, it suddenly does.

 

V.26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

 

Umm, gosh, did Jesus just call this woman a dog??? Did she get angry, or offended, or hopeless and just get up and walk away? Nope, she was too wise for that. Look what she says.

 

V.27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

 

Wow! See her reaction. Steady and full of faith. Jesus spoke of bread, and this woman is so Confident that she says that all she needs is a crumb from God! And what does Jesus then say?

 

V.28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

 

 

See that Ira? That is Faith and Love. That is what you have for the time being to work on and with. Stop thinking of yourself. Start working on growing great faith, and start to focus more on your wife, by loving her enough to pray for her complete healing from all the destruction you caused.

 

Remember that you gave your word to three parties - God, your wife, and this ministry. If you choose to stay on this side of the fence, LIKE KATHY SAYS, "GO FOR THE GOLD", do it FAITHFULLY AND FULL OF FAITH! YOU CAN DO IT!

 

Hebrews 11:32-35

And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets - who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection.

[InHisImage]

Hey Ira...

 

Long time no talk...i've been on avoidence behavior/reality check/marathon running mode for while and just got my head on straighter this last week and wanted to say hello

 

Didn't mean to interrupt your firestorm of "Shock and Awe" you have going here, but maybe to offer you and our family here an additional perspective:....maybe write it off, maybe not.

 

I'm not gonna pull up scriptural quotes or previous conversations at this point cuz i just wanna talk to your heart...truth is, i feel your pain - EXACTLY!! I know your sorrow - IMTIMATELY!!, and i live your reality - DAILY!! My bride has not positively responded to this ministry, but in fact has had a negative response and has chosen to go her way. She enjoys her life on FB and has a very active profile on on Match.com; None of this really bothers me anymore, as it is further evidence of her sincerity to make me realize she is living up to her words, "Michael, i want a divorce and i'll never, ever get back together with you."...maybe a little paraphrasing there, but that's the message. I already know her PTSD has handicapped her to where she won't be dating too soon, but eventually that will begin. I have been 100% in my financial support...still working a 2nd job...and she is even going to sell the house b/c she still has not been able to find a job, and...this is what she wants to do.

 

I say all that to help you understand....i live your reality...i live with the rejection...i have walked the road, so it is with love and fear that i bring these things to you my brother....amidst all the advice, amidst all the great scripture and between all the words of reproach, warning, and even at times a little threatening....i want to humbly encourage you to guard your heart.

 

Little story first....

 

When i was a kid, i grew up in a Baptist church and do you know when we partied the best? Do you know when the biggest all night church dinners happened? Well, it's when a drug addict or gang-bangger came in and tossed his junk on the stage and gave his life to the Lord! It was miraculous...it was amazing to see a .45 or .357 on the stage and hear the confessions of a street dealer or thug...but here's my point: us church kids who were just struggleing with lust, or greeed, or jealosy, or envy...those who lived out our purpose day in and day out...often went uncelebrated and unrecognized. What that did was cause some seeds to grow up in many of us that were not of God...message - the bigger the salvation, the better the story! A few of my friends who came from healthy families went on to have great marriages and do well. Those of us who came from unhealthy families and maybe broken homes, went on to have trouble and challenges.

 

Again, i apologize for being wordy, but i had develloped heart issues with God's plan...b/c of my own immaturity and lack of wisdom, i began to envy the druggies, drinkers,and thugs for the accolades they received. In the end, it derailed my mission...it derailed my advancement towards what God has planned for me. End of story...

 

So, in Proverbs it says, "in all your getting, get wisdom"...i can see from all the posts you've received, that so many here love and care for you...hence the passionate out pouring. Problem is...for me (cuz i'm probably only 5 or 6 years old myself)...it can appear like and attack. And attacks can result in "Fight or Flight"...

 

Flight is not good...you've invested too much for too long to take that out...You have grown here. You are different. You have matured and to give up any real estate over this issue is not worth it.

 

Fight is unnecessary. I'm not saying you are actively doing this...there have been references to 'combative' spirit...but my point is, it's unnecessary. This family loves you; so where does that leave you?

 

For me, i am recommending you take a few days and go find that quiet place where you can hear God's voice the best. Pack a Bible, journal, men's book and take off. God's message is a message of Grace and Mercy. You can get beat up all day long about meeting women...dating..."dinner with a friend"...and you know what, it's either gonna make you "bitter or better", as my old youth pastor would say.

 

I know everyone here means well, but as much as this ministry is about you winning the heart of your wife back, it is all based on the premise that you are becoming a increasingly more Christlike man of God. And if that has slipped or taken a back seat to loneliness or selfpity or sorrow...or whatever, no one here understands that like i do. Everytime i drop off my 4 kids, i feel the hurt, sorrow and burn of my life. So what do ya do?

 

My "unsolicited encouragement" brother, it to draw closer to God and allow Him to direct your path. Let's be real: the advice and admonishments here are valid and full of Godly counsel, but unless your heart is right...it just doesn't matter. So, where is your heart?

 

I'm praying for you...with you. I live a lonely life as a result of my own choices. I travel and meet people in different cities...it's easy to enjoy the warmth of a dinner with another and the empathy that an understanding person can give...in fact it's too easy...so, i eat alone or in a group. Remember this; we are men in the Army of the Living God. We are His workmanship, created for Good works in Christ. He is our source...He is our supply...He is our refuge and our redeemer.

 

I don't know what the future holds for your marriage or mine; but i know this. Whatever it is, it will be so much better if we have matured to a place of Christlikeness that when people see us, they know that we know God and walk by His direction every day. WE MUST MATURE IN CHRIST...the attention of women will derail you if you are getting anything from them that you could be receiving from Him. Praying you have strength to press on and assault the deep sorrows of your heart. Praying that you have strength and endurance to combat the loneliness that you feel and the emptiness that divorce has created by seeking His presence for companionship. I pray God give you chances to Honor Him with your life...moments where the Spirit of God is calling upon you to choose to do battle and bring Honor to Him...opportunities for you to prove to yourself that the moments of emotional support you receive from another, are nothing compared to the care and nurturing God provides.

 

I love you brother...i hope you feel encouraged and understood. Sharpen up your sword...put on your armor...for as surely and iron sharpens iron...we can sharpen each other and assist each other to victory in Christ. B/c in the end, this is all about RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM!

 

Strength and Honor,

 

Michael

[JoelandKathy]

You know Ira - I have not been paying any attention to your topic - but it seems that you have been creating debates about what we teach - and I see you critizing the fact that we share our life on the men's calls - the same as we welcome you to share your life.

 

There is no reason for you to be here.

 

We are not here to entertain theological debates or complaints - and for the record, the time spent talking about Chris's ball games or fundraising is probably 10% of the hours that we spend on the men's calls, if that much.

 

Our helpers seem to be wasting valuable and precious time writing to you.

 

It is time to say goodbye.. unless you would like to re-engage fully. Our forum is not here to be a "pass the time social network". It is for you to get help.

 

I wondered why you disappeared from the men's calls - but that was your choice. I should have been paying attention to your topic more - but it escaped me.

 

If I am seeing anything wrong - then Timothy Paul, AZ Mike etc - please set me straight in my view of what I have just read about Ira's attitudes and arguements and decision to even start dating before working with us for even the minimum of two years.

 

4 God's Girls - send us an email and let us know who you are at joelandkathy4@aol.com Your post to LOWTD is excellent.. I am just not sure who you are. Would you put some identification on your signature by going to your profile? You seem right on with what we are teaching.

[AzMike]

If I am seeing anything wrong - then Timothy Paul, AZ Mike etc - please set me straight in my view of what I have just read about Ira's attitudes and arguements and decision to even start dating before working with us for even the minimum of two years.

 

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

 

You are right Joel

 

When you get serious Ira - I will be back, I believe God has your number,you won't run too long until you can't.

 

Michael

[Lots of work to do]

InHisImage,

 

I decided to heed your advice

 

For me, i am recommending you take a few days and go find that quiet place where you can hear God's voice the best. Pack a Bible, journal, men's book and take off. God's message is a message of Grace and Mercy.

 

I decided to come back and say that I felt a conviction to not go out on dates until I felt a release from God; that during the one lunch I had with a friend who knows my situation I felt uncomfortable, that I was cheating on Leah. That I know that I need to work this out taking one day at a time, drawing closer to God and gaining my strength from Him.

 

Now, after reading Joel's comment

There is no reason for you to be here.

I realize it's not necessary to share all I've learned which is more in line with what's taught here.

 

There is no reason for you to be here.

So I will take this time to say thank you to all you helpers who poured out of your hearts, sharing the wisdom of God as best you can and gave of your time to help me. It really was appreciated. I've learned a lot over the past eighteen months from your dedication. As much as I'd like to name each of you that really, truly HELPED me, I don't want to offend anyone that really did that I might miss.

 

I also learned a lot over the past month since I have not been here. I have not been frustrated, nor have I frustrated anyone here, because of the few things we share slight differences of opinions on.

 

 

So from here on out I will walk it out with God allowing Him to guide, teach and mold me into the image of His son. After all, it's all for His glory anyway as there really is no other reason to live.

 

God willing, one day, Leah and I will be back together and I'll pop in here to let you know.

 

Ira

[AzMike]

Ira,

I haven't given up on you. I was hoping to see Ira the warrior and see you direct that passion to fight FOR your bride. I understand your frustration, I know the anguish, I know the pain all too well.

There is always a reason that we walk the road we do, it always leads us closer to God...if we let it.

I can see Leah going back to you, let God prepare your heart for that occasion but understand, you MUST be ready.

Hurry back Ira - there are people who care about you more than you will ever know.

 

In Honor and Truth

Michael

[musicteacher]

Ira,

I haven't given up on you. I was hoping to see Ira the warrior and see you direct that passion to fight FOR your bride. I understand your frustration, I know the anguish, I know the pain all too well.

There is always a reason that we walk the road we do, it always leads us closer to God...if we let it.

I can see Leah going back to you, let God prepare your heart for that occasion but understand, you MUST be ready.

Hurry back Ira - there are people who care about you more than you will ever know.

In Honor and Truth

Michael

 

I echo what Michael said. There are many people here who care about you, Ira. Some of us read your string in silence but we are here rooting for you. I have been so encouraged by your growth, but it pains me when you fall off the path or have doubts. You were doing so well. We want you to continue on and be that warrior that Michael mentioned above. Joel was just poking you with his cattle prod. He doesn't really want you to leave. You haven't finished the race. Please come back and finish what you started so we can walk alongside you, encourage you, and also be encouraged. Michael speaks the truth. You must be ready when your bride comes back to you. Consistency is the key. You are actually one of the more consistent ones here and that's why it is encouraging to follow your path. You don't realize how many people you are encouraging just by posting. Hope to see you back soon!

[JoelandKathy]

Sheesh.. now I feel bad.

 

If Ira has been a positive presence here, then I apologize.

 

As I said in my post, I got the impression that Ira was disputing our teachings on marriage. That is not welcome here.

 

It was not my intent to hurt feelings or to take away a person who has been a positive presence. It was my intent to eliminate what I perceived to be a strife-ful spirit in relation to us and one or more of our teaching emphasis's.

 

So, Ira - if you can understand what I am referring to - and can refrain from these things.. then welcome back - and my apologies for hurting your feelings, if I did.

[Lots of work to do]

I recently received an email from a trusted friend that suggested I go back and read the last few posts to my thread following what this person recognized as my decision to leave the thread as requested by Joel.

 

It was nice to learn from the posts that Ira was a positive influence here, even though I thought he was fighting against our teachings, and after reading what I wrote I realized that I might have hurt his feelings and therefore offer my apology.

 

I’ve learned that dying to one’s (my) self is not about how I feel. Dying to self is painful process but it is meant for the outcome of others. So in this light, I have decided that I will continue posting and allow others to grow along with me.

 

This decision comes out of the encouragement I’ve received here and the recognition that I could be helping others. I have been reminded of the word spoken over L and me that we would be helping other hurting couples. Perhaps this is where it all begins??

 

Michael and Musicteacher, thank you for your comments for these two comments caused me to reconsider coming back here and sharing the rest of this journey. As one of my counselors here in Nashville said in March 2010 when I told him I believed it’s God’s will for L and I to get back together and I plan to stand for that, “you have an interesting journey ahead of you.”

 

So I will approach this in a slightly different light then before. I don’t know whether or not it will be acceptable but it’s with the best intentions.

 

So, Ira - if you can understand what I am referring to - and can refrain from these things.. then welcome back.

 

I will be sharing my journey as I walk this out fighting for the return of my bride. I will share my thoughts, my dreams, reflections on what I’m reading and on my actions.

 

 

Thursday morning I had a dream. In this dream L said, “It’s going to take time and the time starts today.” I’m believing that this refers to us getting back together.

 

I was later awakened by a phone call from a friend of 25 years. This bother and his wife were part of our wedding party. They actually signed our Katuba, the Jewish wedding contract, as witnesses to the covenant we made. He said, “I was praying for you both this morning and felt as though God was telling me that you and L have not gone unnoticed, that He has L’s heart in the palm of His hand. That she needed to be out there alone for Him to accomplish the work that needs to be done in both of you.” He then added, “I once heard someone say, ‘God is seldom early but He is never late.’” I then told he about the dream that I had.

 

About half an hour later he called back to tell me he just hung up with his wife. She told him that she just mailed a letter to L along with the books, “Sacred Marriage” and “The Heart of a Man”. I know that she has had the book, “The Heart of a Man” about three months and she herself finished reading it.

 

All three of these things, signs if you will, in the same day. I was blown away. I’ve been crying out to God for Him to move.

 

So now I wait. I wait on God to move L’s heart and while I wait I read and pray. I sense that a time of fasting is coming for Jesus said, “When you fast…” He also said, “These things only come out with prayer and fasting.” Please don’t take that last one to mean that I think L has demons and that’s what’s keeping her from coming back. I know she doesn’t. I’ll be praying and fasting that God heals her heart and reveals what else could be keeping her from taking the steps to come back so I can stand against this and she can recognize it.

 

I will continue to believe that God has placed me as the head of our home. As such I intend to keep speaking to the walls surrounding L’s heart and doing what I can to tear them down. I will also continue speaking to her out loud, in faith, that in the spirit she will hear me. I will continue giving to her in the hope that it brings security, healing, tugs at her heart and lets her know that I’m not giving up.

 

As I told my son a few weeks back, L is the only woman that I want and until she is no longer available I will wait and believe that she is coming back, that I will not do anything else unless God shows me different.

[firewalker]

Glad you have reconsidered and continue to post here. The brothers here will be an integral part of your support system in the decisions that you have made.

 

I was so impressed by the impact of God's moving on the heart of this couple, who attested to your covenant, and obviously took their part seriously in support of the two of you.

 

I also want you to know what a healing thing for your son it was for you to verbalize your commitment to pursuing L until she is no longer available. There is security for the next generation in knowing that their parents take their commitments seriously, and for them to honor them. You are teaching and modeling for him how to be a man who keeps his promises and commitments, even in the face of enormous challenges.

 

Very honorable. Just expect a throwdown with the Enemy, as he will attempt to discourage and deter you with many devices. Keep going back to your personal truth before the Lord, and continue to ask for His strengthening and inspiration.

 

I believe heartily that God has L firmly on His radar, and will be sending many encounters her way in order to bring her heart in alignment and her spirit teachable. His ways are beyond anything we could ever predict, which is very good, because God has always showed up differently and according to what each situation and individual's needs dictated. He truly knows us far beyond we know ourselves.

 

Blessing to you, and Shalom.

[InHisImage]

Hey Brother,

 

welcome...the door is never closed...

 

InHisImage,

 

I decided to heed your advice

 

 

 

I decided to come back and say that I felt a conviction to not go out on dates until I felt a release from God; that during the one lunch I had with a friend who knows my situation I felt uncomfortable, that I was cheating on Leah. That I know that I need to work this out taking one day at a time, drawing closer to God and gaining my strength from Him.

 

Ira, this is what it is all about. You are only responsible for you. YOU are the boss of you, and your growth is dependent on your desires. The bar is set high here, but so what! God isn't letting us off the hook!! Regardless of the bar...We are to draw closer to Him so that He can equip us to succeed. He loves you and me...He will send ministering angels to care for you and partner with you. I am glad you are here...

 

In the end, wether L comes back or not, you will only see you when you look into the mirror...for me, that is enough encouragement to draw closer to the Father and become more and more like His son! I can't direct my ex to like me, or spend time with me, or want to start a new relatioinship with me...truthfully, her parents and me...well...that would take a lot of prayer!!!!! So, no, i can't let this be about getting her back or restoring our marriage. That boat has sailed and it's over the horizon. For now, i am now concerned with my kids, raising them to honor their mother, and honor the Lord. If...if, if...if...she ever decided it was a good idea for us to restore a relationship, well...then i would be someone she would have to get to know for the very first time, b/c i will have changed that much!! And the same goes for you...make the change. Maybe she will...maybe she won't see it; but by golly, don't let that process get derailed.

 

i'm praying for you Ira...praying for you is praying for me...b/c we need the same tools to succeed. We need the same God to give us the same blessing...in the same season.

 

In His Strength and for His Honor,

 

IHI

[JoelandKathy]

Welcome back, Ira.

 

I did have to take my liberty as for the sake of the few who may have seen the theory of God being responsible for everything that happens off of the post. That concept would make God a murderer, a child abuser, would make him responsible for Shekinah's death, would make God guilty of incest when young girls are incested, would make God guilty of orchestrating the Holocaust etc.

 

Interestingly enough a few days ago I posted this article about God being a good God. I believe it is post 1142 at this link:

 

 

http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/2002-where-do-i-start/page__pid__125345__st__1140entry125345

 

 

 

Give me a call if you would please. I may still have your number in my cell phone and if I do, I will call you - but if you don't hear from me, give me a call at 843-298-0211

[Lots of work to do]

Joel,

 

Thank you for welcoming me back.

 

What I said does not:

That concept would make God a murderer, a child abuser, would make him responsible for Shekinah's death, would make God guilty of incest when young girls are incested, would make God guilty of orchestrating the Holocaust etc.

 

for these are the results of the free will of man which has been given to us by God. This, free will, is always brought out on this forum especially when it comes to helping us men recognize that we might get everything right becoming Christ-like and our wives may still CHOOSE to not come back.

 

Yes, God is good, (all the time and all the time He is good). And there is also evil in the world.

 

Again, thank you for welcoming me back.

 

Ira

[JoelandKathy]

Yes, Ira - if you are "hearing" things from the Lord that are different than what you know that we believe and teach, then we do not want those things to be shared.

 

This is a place for you to get encouraged in your journey toward winning your wife's heart back.

 

I would like you to call me because of the attitudes that continue to seep out in your posts.

 

You are here to be a learner - and I don't "hear" that in your tone - and thus I edit certain things out.

 

I am sincere in welcoming you back - but ONLY if you are taking the seat of "learner" - and yes, it is good to encourage other guys on their journey.

[JoelandKathy]

For reference, I am adding this part here in August of 2012. It is astounding to us the level of seeming sincerity a man can have as LOWTD appeared to have in the beginning of his journey. That was a LONG time ago. Today he "outed" himself completely, exposing himself as having not changed one bit. Guys, you need to be serious about this. His wife never turned around. She KNEW that he was bs'ing her. He made a good "show" of change, but that is all that it was. This man, for all of his "show" of repentance and change, has turned out to be unchanged completely, through and through still the same ol' wretch that his wife discarded. I am SORRY guys that it is so hard to change for real. All that I can say to you is, BE REAL. Your wife is not going to turn around with a fake change. It is true that not every wife will turn around with a real change.. but if your wife is not turning around, and a lot of time has gone by, look deep in your heart. What are you carrying? Bitterness? Resentment? Anger? What of the "old you" is left? Are there things in you that are keeping your wife from changing? I am just posting this as an edit. I don't want it to push this topic back to the top of the list.. but for those who find it.. selah. Pause and think calmly about what I am saying.

 

 

 

The following was written on August 15, 2011, the last post to LOWTD:

 

Many blogs and forums have "moderated" posts whereby no one can post anything without it first being screened and approved by the forum or blog founders/owners.

 

We choose to occasionally edit posts when they are in violation of our forum rules - rather than to just delete posts completely.

 

This enables the life of the forum to flow along more smoothly.

Edited August 2, 2012 by JoelandKathy
Joel - to add to the post a year later.