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Having gone back and read my thread, trying to read it as though it was not mine, I came to the following conclusion: The person writing is extremely frustrated that he isn't getting his way. He must be successful at what he does and have formulas that have helped him achieve success that are not working in this situation. Sometimes it looks like he wants to quit yet the fact that he's been here a year, and things haven't yet worked out as he had hoped, shows tremendous fortitude.

 

I would certainly not be one to judge his heart, something that should be left only to God, as his writings may not adequately state what he's trying to say because of his emotional state. I would err on giving him credit for sticking with it and give him the benefit of the doubt even though he is so blatantly sure this isn't going to work. Apparently he is doing this out of pure faith in His God's ability to bring change.

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Thank you PlansForHope.   At the moment I am not winning my wife's heart back as she has totally cut herself off from me. She does not know what I'm doing and the hope that I'm believing in for our m

Hey LOWTD,

 

I'm in intermission so do not know if I will get the opportunity to finish this post. But I'll throw some quick observations.

 

I would certainly not be one to judge his heart, something that should be left only to God,

 

Judgement and observation are two different things. While it is difficult for anyone reading a thread to know the authors heart, the author does reveal something about himself in his choice of words and his reflections. And for the observers to point out areas of insight that perhaps we not might see, is the obligation of the observer. Yes, only God can truly judge your heart. But is is the job of the helpers here, to point out areas where they see we are missing something or could use guidance. God also says to seek the counsel of many, not to rely solely upon yourself. He also says (2 Timothy 3) that once those that have been taught should go forth and use the Word for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.

 

The person writing is extremely frustrated that he isn't getting his way.

 

Why should there be frustration. If you are finding your comfort and guidance in the Lord, you know it is not about getting your way, but fulfilling God's plan. Perhaps you way is not God's way. Totally succumbing to the Lord, 100%, includes the realization that what we want as humans, maybe perhaps His mercy. Are we to question, God's plan and think ours is better?

 

Darn, they called places for Act II, but I'll be back.

 

In Faith...TP

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Okay plays over. I bet you couldn't wait for me to come back.

 

Continuing on with the getting your own way thing...

 

Trying to have something work out our way has proven completely wrong. All of us guys have been doing it our way for years. Thats a control issue. Relinquishing control to God means we understand it may not turn out in the way we think it should but God knows better. And when things don't go our way, we say thats ok, we pray and figure out why our plan is different from God's and humbly ask for guidance so we can learn where the difference may lie. Our job is to be obedient to God and His way. When we get frustrated we are operating out of our carnal nature. The frustration comes from self centered thinking. Thinking we have to be in control.

 

He must be successful at what he does and have formulas that have helped him achieve success that are not working in this situation.

 

And how is he measuring success. He has lost his family, his children are a mess, the blessings that really count in life are gone for the moment. And the he I am referring to, is not just you. Its all of us, because we men measure success by our business (financial) success. Yet truly to measure success, one must start with a set of priorities. Do we measure our success by our hearts? (from my thread)

 

Live = Balance of life, Wive's, Children, Spirituality and Community (again, not necessarily in that order)

 

Learning = Becoming Men of Christ, Sharpening your life skills, emerging yourself with the Bible and self growth. If you are not learning, you are stagnant.

 

Love = Read Corinthians 13 if this needs an explanation. Christ laid down the rules and path. It is difficult to retrain ourselves, but through God all things are possible.

 

Leaving a Legacy = Attending your own funeral. Imagine, if you will, your own funeral. What will people say about you when you get to heaven. What would your Wife say, what would your children say, what would your Pastor say, what will your community think? Answer those questions honestly in your heart, and you will see the changes you need to make now. Because you may not be here tomorrow. Live each day as though those important elements are the key ingredients to your growth.

 

Recent financial success, does not mean one may have a formula. The formula would include a balance and being successful in all of the above. Most of us men are lacking in many of these areas.

 

he is so blatantly sure this isn't going to work. Apparently he is doing this out of pure faith in His God's ability to bring change.

 

And this is the real point...

 

Apparently, he does not have faith. He says he does, he said he is putting the faith in God. But if he is blatantly sure this is not going to work. Then he actually does not have faith. How can one be sure something is not going to work and have faith. That is an oxymoron.

 

The Holy Spirit will work through him, when he absolutely casts all his heart into the Lord. He is giving himself an out with this statement. This is an intellectual statement, not a heart statement and God is after your heart. Total submission to the Lord comes from the heart, because thats where the Holy Spirit works from. The Father does not work from the head, thats where our carnal nature lies. It is our head that justifies improper behavior. It is our head that rationalizes our self destruction.

 

Ira, I realize you have been slowly alienating yourself on your threads. And you most likely will not respond back to me. And that okay. You are choosing to ignore posts from me, David, June and others that may cause controversy. You had asked me many months ago on a men's call to assist in bringing the helpers back to your thread. And I did. Yet you will respond to AZMike or Heartsong when they coddle you and your emotions.

 

Paul says specifically, that ministry and fellowship is not always pleasant. He says it is a place to call out Truth, and sometimes that is not always what we like to hear. But it is our jobs to be accountable to each other.

 

I so want you and L to be restored. As much in my heart as I want my own family to be restored and every man that has decided to walk this road. I know how difficult this is for all of us.

 

Please know that I post with humility. In an effort to perhaps bring to light some things, like myself, we all may be struggling through. Make allowances for my faults because of your love.

 

In Him....TimothyPaul

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He must be successful at what he does and have formulas that have helped him achieve success that are not working in this situation.

 

I am reminded of David in the Word ,where he fought a particular battle one way and so forth, then the Lord told him to change tactics.

 

THIS SITUATION requires a different tactic, a different solution, a different way of doing things......for THIS BATTLE.

 

This battle requires you being "Christ" to your wife.

 

If before you met your wife, you had a vision and in this vision, Christ said to you, "there is a woman who is going to come into your life and she will become your wife. She has been wounded by many people throughout her life and I need you to go and bring healing to her for what all these people have done. I need you to be the Hands, Feet and mouthpiece of me into her world.I need you to show her "ME" through how you LOVE. How would I love her, is how I want you to love her. I want her to experience ME, through you. Would you do that for me? You would have said, "absolutely! I am your man!"

 

She comes into your life and instead of YOU bringing healing into her world for what OTHERS have done, you added to the misery, by not listening, validating, and honoring her, etc."

 

Years go by and you have a 2nd vision:

 

Christ is saying, "I sent you into her world to be the Hands, Feet and Mouthpiece of ME and my Father and you didn't do it. Now she is much more wounded from what others and YOU have done.

 

Now, I need you to step up to the plate and do as I have asked of you. To do what you agreed to on your wedding day. To honor, cherish and LOVE her, the way SHE needs to be loved. I need you to be an "ambassador" for me to her and to the many other lives you and her will touch. Do you think you can do that? Can you do that for me?

 

Please! She needs me and since I can't be there in a physical body except your physical body, I Need you to show her ME through YOU.

 

I NEED YOU! I need every contact that YOU have with my daughter, to be a "JESUS" contact. Can you do that for me? Can you show her me?

 

Your answer, "not my will but YOURS." I will do that. I'm your man!"

 

Let's stay on the original path....YOU being Christ-like to this beautiful BRIDE of yours.

 

Lets stay the course here. Win her heart. Bring healing to her.

 

As Christ bring healing to the Bride of Christ, so you can bring healing to the natural bride of yours by LOVING her and raising her Oxytocin thus bringing healing to her emotions and life.

 

You can do this.

 

As I wrote in another guys post,

 

BE,

 

 

CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT,

 

CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT,

 

CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT,

 

CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT,

 

CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT, CONSISTENT

 

 

Can you figure out the main theme of THIS post

 

Kathy of Joel and Kathy

 

Kathy of Joel and Kathy ::love

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Kathy,

 

Thank you for your words. I am doing everything I can within the boundaries that L gave me. L does not want me to call, text, write or ask her out. All L wants is for me to pay the bills. So I pay the bills and do as the Lord leads me with extra giving.

 

As Christ bring healing to the Bride of Christ, so you can bring healing to the natural bride of yours by LOVING her and raising her Oxycontin thus bringing healing to her emotions and life.
So if L does not want anything else from me how do I raise the oxycontin levels?

 

LOWTD

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First, I forgot you weren't with your wife, but

 

2ndly that doesn't matter,

 

Its an attitude (and actions if a man is with his wife) that I was addressing. You don't need to be with your wife to change that. (This isn't written to just you, it's written to all who read.)

 

That is something that needs to be worked on whether you are with her or not. Working on the right picture in your frame of mind while you are not with her is the right thing to do, so when the opportunity comes you will be prepared.

 

Start to envision success in your mind and attitude...start envisioning you being that "oxytocin dispenser" for HER so when you are with her, it will have already started working on the inside of you. The deal is for your wife to notice a change within min. of being in her presence. You need consistency in your change even BEFORE you have face time with her. Paradigm change.

 

There are other ways to reach out to your wife.

 

I know this, you just don't "never" not be in contact with your wife, there are ways to work within the boundaries in which she has set. Make sure you bring that up on the mens call.

 

Blessings, Kathy of Joel and Kathy ::love

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Why should there be frustration. If you are finding your comfort and guidance in the Lord, you know it is not about getting your way, but fulfilling God's plan.
My frustration is not about getting my way but about sharing my heart and thoughts, I guess inadequately for understanding here, and having my words twisted and used against me.

 

 

Relinquishing control to God means we understand it may not turn out in the way we think it should but God knows better.
I was the one on the calls that always said "it may not work out that my wife comes back, that I'm just being realistic". If she doesn't come back it's not because I'm not doing what I need to do to win her back and it's not because God doesn't want her to not come back to me because I know He does just as when He sent Israel into exile in Babylon and did not provide for her for a season all He wanted was repentence, it's her heart.

 

 

Apparently, he does not have faith. He says he does, he said he is putting the faith in God. But if he is blatantly sure this is not going to work. Then he actually does not have faith. How can one be sure something is not going to work and have faith. That is an oxymoron.
His faith is in God alone. He believes that He doesn't need to do this ministry and he can focus on God and God can restore the relationship. He apparently doesn't believe that the things he's doing "to bless" according to this ministry are going to change anything. Perhaps that is the oxymoron, doing the things he's told here and not believing they will work.

 

 

You are choosing to ignore posts from me, David, June and others that may cause controversy.
I have not ignored any posts, in fact, a helper told me she was leaving my thread because I addressed every question she asked. It is difficult to figure out what the rules are; some people here just want to say things and some want answers. This forum is a free for all with no rules.

 

 

This battle requires you being "Christ" to your wife.
And that's what I've been trying to be. Believe me it would have been much easier to walk away as she did and just move on. I could have saved a lot more then just the emotional turmoil that I've been going through this past year.

 

 

There are other ways to reach out to your wife.
There's only one way my wife wants me reaching out to her.
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Well L will be back from FL tomorrow. I sent her a text asking if she's still planning to stay in TN or if she has changed her mind again and decided to go back to FL. I asked so I would know whether to go and pay the rent on her apartment. There's no sense in paying if she's planning to leave. As usual, and expected, I have not heard back.

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1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

 

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

 

It is apparent from scripture, that if one does not believe God can change the person and leaves, the person who is left is not bound to the person who left them.

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TY Carnine,

 

L stopped talking to me right after Thanksgiving, after I flew our daughter into town and we had dinner as a family stating that I have not respected her wishes to not call, text, write or email her.

 

What does that have to do with your responsibility before God? Simply put, your scripture references are exactly the reason that she left in the first place. YOU LEFT HER years before she left you. Read through scripture and see how many times it is reported that the people of God left Him. None of those times was God present in a physical sense and the people turned from his physical presence. God's people turned their hearts from Him as you turned your heart from L.

 

She is not bound to YOU.

 

NOT the other way around. Sorry.

 

The only thing that is "unfair" in the Christian walk is the fact that we DON'T bear the consequences for our sin.

 

Much like you fighting against L's right to choose with whom she will be in relationship, the only thing that would be unfair is for her to give you another chance.

 

Neither one can be earned. They are both a product of grace and mercy and are possible only through the love of God.

 

It really is time to get over yourself.

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But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so.

 

So who is the unbeliever? From your previous posts, while you say you put faith in God, you imply you do not believe your marriage will be restored. Therefore it is "L" who God has granted the peace He promised.

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LOWTD, Ive been reading your thread pretty much since the beginning. I like the name you've chosen yet I do not care to see you posting verses that appear to be a reason for you to not do the work you are aware you need to do. Is 1 Cor 7:10-11 and 15 not Paul talking about when an unbelieving spouse leaves...Unbelieving meaning one who does not believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirt? Im not sure I've ever heard it interpreted to be saying unbelieving in the context of one spouse not believing God can change the other spouse and leaving as a result. Can you back that up further? I'm not looking for a theological debate, just want to be sure that I understand what you are saying as it appears you feel you've been misunderstood throughout your time here.

 

As usual, and expected, I have not heard back.

 

This is a really hard balance to find. What you expect to happen in this life has an uncanny way of actually happening. It is a difficult place to be in where you need to work to win your wife's heart back and feel like its futile at times yet expect that it is not. You need to do whatever it takes to remain in a place of faith - believing that the spiritual steps and ground you are taking right now are effective and taking root whether you can see it happening or not. It's not about whether you are bound to your wife or not. That is not what Joel and Kathy focus on. They focus on teaching you to become Christlike so that you can demonstrate Christ and His love to your wife and by doing so, win her heart to the Lord and back to you. But win it to the Lord first.

 

He believes that He doesn't need to do this ministry and he can focus on God and God can restore the relationship

 

You know, being here is not about this ministry. its not about Joel and Kathy. Its about learning to be Christlike, learning to love your wife as Christ loved the church. And it might appear that you can do that without this ministry. My husband (Sozo on the forum) believes that too. He has himself convinced he doesn't need to allow anyone to speak into his life, only that he needs to believe in God and let God do a work in him. He refuses to trust the words of anyone that speaks into his life. As a result, he weighs everything he hears by what he feels in the very moment. He refuses to come to understanding that it's not about what he feels. So he sits still and prays for God to change him but gives no effort to changing anything in and of himself. As a result he is getting divorced while Joel and Kathy have a wonderful marriage. He is getting divorced while our pastors have a wonderful marriage. He has every tool in front of him yet will not utilize any of them because he won't read the instruction manuals he has been given. Joel and Kathy are not the end all be all of marriage ministry, but they are one heck of an instruction manual. I am aware that you are here seeking help and instruction too. I just hope you can see the wonderful resource you have in being here and apart of this ministry and I believe you do or you would not still be here. What I am trying to say is that changing does not happen solely by focusing on God. Focusing on God directs us to the keys we need to change and gives us the strength to make use of the keys we find along the way of life. Focusing on God keeps us in line with truth and provides the light we need to see through the mists of life but we need to do the actions. becoming Christlike does not just happen. You gotta work hard for it and work stinking hard. you will spiritually sweat harder than you ever have in your life. Any of the men who are walking this out will tell you that (and have told you that) and I am sure you've already experienced this and felt it at times.

 

Kathy gave you some wonderful advice here:

That is something that needs to be worked on whether you are with her or not. Working on the right picture in your frame of mind while you are not with her is the right thing to do, so when the opportunity comes you will be prepared.

 

Start to envision success in your mind and attitude...start envisioning you being that "oxytocin dispenser" for HER so when you are with her, it will have already started working on the inside of you. The deal is for your wife to notice a change within min. of being in her presence. You need consistency in your change even BEFORE you have face time with her. Paradigm change

 

It's a good place for you to start. You need to get out of that mindset thinking that expects L to react certain ways. That expects to be misunderstood and not heard. That expects to be able to just focus on God and have all the change you need to happen just happen. It's stinking thinking is what it is. Change your thinking and start doing what Kathy said. No matter how you feel about it or whether you think it will work. start envisioning.....start envisioning....start envisioning. Where there is no vision the people perish.

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The anger I'm sensing and twisting of words is mind boggling, yet not surprising.

 

Actually tp, I have plenty of peace.

From your previous posts, while you say you put faith in God, you imply you do not believe your marriage will be restored.
Again, you misunderstood what I write. My faith is that God can give me and L a new marriage, as the old marriage is DEAD, but knowing L the way I do, and knowing God will not override her FREE WILL, I do not believe it's going to happen. I'm praying and have PEACE knowing that my God is a redeeming God and He WILL turn this around for His Glory and has a wonderful plan for my future.

 

Carnine, I apologize but I do not understand what this means, can you please clarify

She is not bound to YOU.

 

NOT the other way around. Sorry.

 

Much like you fighting against L's right to choose with whom she will be in relationship
I am not fighting against L getting into another relationship nor have I stopped her from getting involved in any relationship?

 

In addition, you do not know my heart. I never left L; I would have never left L. It bothered me that I did not understand why I acted the way I did toward L and I kept asking God to show me what caused it so I could change. Being a faithful God He has shown me the root cause of my actions and I've gone to Him and asked forgiveness and I've forgiven myself.

 

I realize that's a BIG teaching here, I left L years ago, but it's one that I don't buy into, never did. I am thankful that I have been able to learn from this ministry, mostly through the books that I've read but all the cool-aid, sorry, haven't drank it, don't buy into it. From the books I've read I've been able to learn where I was stuck, what caused me to act the way I did. If L gives me another chance we will both be extremely happy; if not, I pray that she has all the happiness in the world as that's what she deserves. I pray she is healthy and prosperous in whatever she does. I will always be here to help her in every way I can; she will NEVER have to worry.

 

Based on your comment,

the only thing that would be unfair is for her to give you another chance
I'm glad she never got involved in this ministry. The last thing she needs is this type of negative input from people in a marriage ministry.

 

Frankly, I think the anger in your writing reveals a lot about you. Seems to me that perhaps your anger is being displaced as your signature says

Believes that there is a light at the end of the tunnel but wonders if we'll ever get there
. That’s really :( as you're entering your forth year with this ministry.
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Jaya,

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

I have been doing what Kathy said,

That is something that needs to be worked on whether you are with her or not. Working on the right picture in your frame of mind while you are not with her is the right thing to do, so when the opportunity comes you will be prepared.

 

Start to envision success in your mind and attitude...start envisioning you being that "oxytocin dispenser" for HER so when you are with her, it will have already started working on the inside of you. The deal is for your wife to notice a change within min. of being in her presence. You need consistency in your change even BEFORE you have face time with her. Paradigm change

When I pray for, and think of, L I image myself with a big smile and the love in my heart going out to her and engulfing her without my even lifting my arms around her. And I see her not being able to resist that loving hug.

 

I in no way believe that I can simply pray and have God change me. I know that I constantly have to take thoughts captive and correct those negative thoughts by telling them what's right.

 

I am constantly reading books on marriage and take everything that is said here seriously, asking God to show me what applies to me and asking Him to show me how to apply it. I'm not doing it for the sole purpose of winning L's heart back as much as I am to become the man that He wants me to be.

 

What I do not accept, nor do I receive from, are those that start by telling me what I will or will not like which you did not do which I appreciate. No one knows what's going on in my mind. I do believe, as the bible says, "faithful are the wounds of a friend."

 

I almost forgot to answer something you asked. When I asked L if she believed that God could change me she said she didn't think so. This is not the same God that I believe in. The God I believe in is capable of doing ANYTHING. I hope that answers your question.

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You, sir, are MEAN.

 

Period.

 

Talk about taking things out of context. Wow! (Really, what difference should it make to you HOW long I have been allowing my husband the opportunity to restore relationship with me?)

 

There is no "cool-aid" here. There is TRUTH and a refusal to see or accept the truth. That is the nature of man. Like the first Adam you choose to blame your wife and the God who blessed you with her for your own blindness, sin, and pride.

 

God sent a second Adam, Christ, to bear the weight of our sins because we were unable to do so for ourselves. Yet, you continue to blameshift and confuse the issue rather than look upon your OWN heart. That is your choice as you too have free will.

 

Forget everything I stated in my previous posts to you, those words are for one who is sensitive to the leading of the Spirit of God. Clearly, my speaking into your situation was a case of casting pearls before swine. You must be humble and teachable to become prosperous in God's economy, my "friend."

 

Your wife was never your enemy, yet, you failed her, blamed her, and withheld necessary things from her heart. Yes, you sir, did LEAVE her in your personal quest for MORE. Was it money, power, influence, material things, validation, admiration, respect, from the rest of the world? Though you gain the world, what has it cost you? I don't have to tell you that you were wrong. L did that already when she begged and pleaded with you to hear her heart; to LOVE her; protect her; and then, when she couldn't beg you any longer, when she began to fear for her own santiy and her very life, SHE DIVORCED YOU. You can't change the truth.

 

The only way that any woman can allow her husband the opportunity to win her heart back after such abuse IS through the love of God but, he must prove himself worthy by becoming trustworthy with her heart. This is not a thing lightly given by any person, much less the weaker vessel who has already experienced the sole of your boot treading upon her heart for far too long. I don't care if you LIKE the sound of it, IT IS UNFAIR to a woman to have to reopen her heart to one who has chosen to hurt her so, and if she does this for a man he darn sure better appreciate it or he will lose it never to be offered again.

 

For what it's worth, I have been praying for you, L, and the restoration of your marriage for nearly a year now almost daily. I have seen you make great leaps and bounds forward only to be dragged back to your own comfort zone by the chains of your fleshly stronghold. No one has failed you here, LOWTD. You have failed yourself.

 

There is good news, if you choose to see it, failure is only failure if you refuse to get up and try again. You may have lost L but there is still a chance that you can become a Christlike man. It will require a HUGE dose of reality and Godly humility on your part, but if you can crucify that old man, she may decide that she wants to give you that undeserved opportunity in spite of it all. Even if she doesn't you then, and only then, can stand tall knowing that it is your WEAKNESS which makes you strong.

 

You said:

 

When I asked L if she believed that God could change me she said she didn't think so. This is not the same God that I believe in. The God I believe in is capable of doing ANYTHING.

 

and

 

Frankly, I think the anger in your writing reveals a lot about you. Seems to me that perhaps your anger is being displaced as your signature says

Quote

 

Believes that there is a light at the end of the tunnel but wonders if we'll ever get there

. That’s really :( as you're entering your forth year with this ministry.

 

 

We wives have good reason to feel this way and it has nothing to do with our faith in God, regardless of how you want to see it. My God is a gentleman and will NOT force His will on his children. It is neither the fault of the wife or her God that the husband has PROVEN that he will NOT submit his will and come into agreement with God's.

Edited by Carnine
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Dude you just don't get it. I didn't either and even thought I'm not posting on my thread I'm here reading everyday and learning. I haven't been at this very long but the biggest lesson so far is change you for you. Be a better man when you do you will be surprised. I was. Will/have I made mistakes yes I am human made a big 1 the other day and god corrected me.

 

You need to ask yourself these questions.

 

Why did you join the ministry

 

What did you hope to accomplish

 

What did you learn

 

What has changed in you since you started

 

 

You are comming off as EMO oh boohooo I can say that I did it.

Look everyone I have a booboo make it feel better. If you walk in Christ footsteps your entire outlook will change

 

After you answer the questions look at the answers are they selfserving or selfless

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LOTW,

 

I am curious whose threads you've browsed while being here?

 

I read the comment where someone told you (ForHimForHer) that you would not like what he had to say to you and he gave you a wonderful post full of insight yet you acknowledged very little about what he said and reacted incredibly strongly to him tell you that you would not like what he said. Truth of the matter is, you did not like what he said. He told the truth yet you were so offended. My experience is that usually if someone says something to me that gets my shirt in a knot then it's my flesh that is reacting to what they say and if my flesh is reacting then that means truth is being spoken. Whether I want to hear it or not. I get that you are not praying for God to change you and then waiting. I get that and gathered that from your posting thus far. However, I do see that you react by what you feel in any moment. You feel offended, you react offensively. you feel misunderstood, then you defend. While doing all of this you are missing nuggets of truth that are being handled to you. I am curious if there is any way you can even have someone else read posts to you? When my husband (who reacted incredibly similar to you when he was part of this ministry) would get so riled up, I would read the same post to him out loud and he would hear it in a different way than when he read it himself. Maybe try reading the posts to you outloud and if you have to, read them like L would read them. Not how you would. You are just reacting and defending. And if you feel you are not reacting and defending then read your last post to carnine. It was very rude and mean and I am sure inflicted much pain in her to read that jab about how long it's taken her husband to win her heart back.

 

I am constantly reading books on marriage and take everything that is said here seriously, asking God to show me what applies to me and asking Him to show me how to apply it. I'm not doing it for the sole purpose of winning L's heart back as much as I am to become the man that He wants me to be.

 

Do you know that with all the kings Israel and Judah had leading their countries, when it came to spiritual leadership there was almost always a prophet (if not always a prophet) speaking to the king about God's plan? It was not often a case of the king hearing directly from God. The prophet spoke truth in. You seem to feel that you need to take what is said here and wait until you 'hear/feel' God confirm it to you. You test what you hear with the Bible. if it's backed up in the Bible (which everything Joel and Kathy teach is) then that's it. end of story. believe it. take it. live it. dont wait and ask God what applies to you and to show you how to apply it. It's all here. not only is it here, its walked out as well.

 

Lotw, you need to find a way to squish your pride and your flesh's need to be heard and understood. You have got to get past getting so offended. All that offence is doing to you is keeping you in the same place. How could L see change in you or feel your desire to hug her as you so eloquently put it to me when you have the capacity to make such a horrible comment to a woman in this forum who has been through so much pain at the hands of her own husband? Whether you intended to or not, this shows us the exact depths of misunderstanding you have applied to your own wife, because I am sure you have realized that you treat those closest to you a lot worse than those around you. people do that by nature. they snap at those they love a lot stronger than they would someone they dont know as much.

 

I almost forgot to answer something you asked. When I asked L if she believed that God could change me she said she didn't think so. This is not the same God that I believe in. The God I believe in is capable of doing ANYTHING. I hope that answers your question.

 

Agreed. But how does what you said just above here apply to what you quoted here:

 

1 Corinthians 7: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

 

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

 

Also

 

When I asked L if she believed that God could change me she said she didn't think so. This is not the same God that I believe in. The God I believe in is capable of doing ANYTHING.

 

When you make a comment like this but then say this:

 

I in no way believe that I can simply pray and have God change me. I know that I constantly have to take thoughts captive and correct those negative thoughts by telling them what's right.

 

It seems to conflict. God won't change you. You change yourself. God gave you every tool you needed by giving you the Holy Spirit, the Word, friends, brothers and sisters in Christ, and prophets to speak Truth into you. What you do with the truth is up to you. You are the only one who can walk it out. You are the only one who can decide to stop defending and stop reacting in offence to truth that is spoken. You are the only one who can decide to crucify your own flesh. We can't make that decision for you. It's up to you. You need to remember that God is your defender. If someone says something here (or anywhere) that is so offensive then does it matter in the grande scheme of things? Not really. He will defend you and bring the truth into the light. Nothing will remain in darkness.

 

Anyways, i hope you can hear what I am trying to say. It's not spoken meanly, its not spoken rudely. Its spoken hopefully to get your attention and help you see how easily you are offended and feel the need to defend yourself. Jesus never defended himself. He never tried to make himself understood. He didnt react out of offence. He demonstrated His character at all times to those around him. He stayed true to His character. And he asked that we do the same. I ask that of you now. please stay true to His character when you reply to posts here. keep your flesh in line with His character. quit this reacting and justifying and defending. L can see right through it.

 

You can do this. Other's have gone before you and are winning the battle. Those others are now trying to help you. Let them help you instead of fighting them. If you want to keep defending then I am afraid you will be going around this merry go round for quite a while. I'd like to see you jump off and let's start running. it's up to you.

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LOWTD,

 

You said this,

 

Frankly, I think the anger in your writing reveals a lot about you. Seems to me that perhaps your anger is being displaced as your signature says. That’s really  as you're entering your forth year with this ministry.

 

I assure you that she is not writing in anger but in love and concern for both L and you. Carnine has a heart for God and others and has done and continues to do ALL she can to help me grow up. The ONLY reason we are still where we are is because of my selfishness, pride and stupidity. She has enough childish garbage to deal with from me and quite frankly doesn't need any more pig-headedness from another baby trapped in an adult body. 

 

You also said,

 

My faith is that God can give me and L a new marriage, as the old marriage is DEAD,

 

Marriage is not a game that you can just say "do over" when you don't know if the ball hit the line or went out-of-bounds. God said in His word

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Galatians 6:7,8

 

You can't sow your wild oats and then pray for crop failure. I too have learned this and I PRAY I have not sown too much that my consequences include loosing the most incredible thing God has blessed me with in this world. 

 

Yes, God can give you a RENEWED marriage IF you are willing to DO the work not because you are "sorry". 

 

You too said,

 

but knowing L the way I do, and knowing God will not override her FREE WILL, I do not believe it's going to happen.

 

 You just said that you don't believe your marriage will work because of the way L is and that God won't force her to. Where's your responsibility? How can the blame fall on just her and God? Really...? God...? The Creator of everything...? The Alpha and Omega...? THE GREAT I AM...? :o 

I pray you don't mean that. 

 

I'm praying and have PEACE knowing that my God is a redeeming God and He WILL turn this around for His Glory and has a wonderful plan for my future.

 

I truly hope that you are praying but the peace that you are feeling is probably nothing more than a sigh of relief from your flesh now that you don't have your help meet shining Gods light in the dark corners of your life exposing it . That's why I believe you said "my God" and not just God as we all know Him. 

L is the one God Himself chose to help you grow and mature into the Christ-like man He wanted you to be. Yes, L was and is God's perfect will for your life.

 

I am thankful that Carnine chooses to still be in my life and thank God for her. I too have "lots of work to do". In fact this post to you hurt my dear bride because I have spent more time and energy on a post to you than I ever have to her. That only told her that I made you more important than her. I hope you see what we all are saying and I hope this post wasn't a waste of time that would have been better spent blessing the heart of this amazing woman.

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From the books I've read I've been able to learn where I was stuck, what caused me to act the way I did.

 

This is great lowtd and these are the first steps of spiritual maturity.

 

The deeper level of maturity however says, that because I was stuck and even though I am humble and willing to change....that those past behaviors still have CONSEQUENCES or fall out in the present. I think this is the part of truth you are overlooking.

 

This always confused me early on in my walk with Christ too. You are not alone in any regard here of learning and changing. I have learned so much being here in this Ministry and gleaning precious truth from others, including you.

 

I thought that when God saved me and washed away my sins that God also took away the resulting damage to myself, and others of my sin. This however, as you know is not the WHOLE truth.(This is why there is generational sin and curses).

 

In my own marriage, God so graciously showed up for Joshua in supernatural ways. The scales fell from his eyes and he took the vision of rebuilding the ruins to heart. He was broken and profoundly changed. BUT, the damage to me and his sons was devastating. He had to face the fall out from his actions in our marriage and as a father. God forgave him and so did I completely but it did not stop the fact that the harvest of destruction was still producing in the present.

 

He did not give up. He is planting new seeds in the new soil of his heart. God broke up the fallow ground first. He had to prepare the soil to receive the POTENTIAL of a life giving SEED (truth) to eventually produce a harvest that will bear the peaceable fruit of righteousness in his own life, my life and his sons.

 

He is STILL planting those new seeds and we are now expectantly waiting to see the harvest of those seeds. Some harvests come in quickly and other seeds that are sown take longer to see those results.

 

Yes, Jesus has loved you and forgiven you. This is TRUTH. Yet, God does NOT stop the result of or the effects of those sins upon others and even yourself. Whatever a man sows (ignorant or not) that will he also reap.

 

Of course their is GRACE for your ignorance but it does not then automatically cancel the results and effects of sin. The results are still there but paying the punishment for being the source or cause of it is forgiven.

 

With your wife...although you have made great efforts and have great faith in God.....their was still the principle of cause and effect put into play. It has to play out all the way to the end of that particular harvest. Genesis says, While the earth remains, Seed, TIME and Harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night shall not cease.

 

We as Christians, plant seed but seem to want to jump past the TIME aspect in God.

 

In marriage recovery and restoration there is a lag time between a husband making authentic changes and being able to see the results or the HARVEST of those efforts in his wife. Those times are the opportunity for growth and maturity to take place. It is the exercising of your spiritual muscles that will make you stronger in the end.

 

This, in the meantime, is where great men of God are molded and formed by the Potter's hands. This is the prison for Joseph, the valleys where David watched over his sheep, in Midian where Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law. It was during that season, that TIME God was PREPARING them for that place and purpose in in God.

 

This principle of sowing and reaping reinforces for us that God is IMMUTABLE and He changes not. That His Word never ceases to be true and right and we can count it. This is our assurance to base our trust in God (on) and His principles.

 

It certainly is difficult to walk this out when the reaping we do is in the negative. It is hard to endure and have to walk out.

 

But Galatians 6 declares, Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life(of the absolute fullness of life). Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

 

 

I pray this helps clarify things for you.

 

Blessings,

 

Kimberly

Edited by Pure in Heart
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June,

 

 

I understand this and I'm doing everything I can to walk the walk of patience and loving her unconditionally. I NEVER want her to feel hurt or manipulated again.

 

 

 

L spent the whole day with our daughter, S, on Friday and they had lunch together. I picked S up just after seven and we went out for BBQ and then a movie. Our son had to work Friday night. He was going to spend the night at my place, Thursday, so he could spend more time with his sister. When we got back here he decided to go home. I asked S why A decided not to spend the night. She said they had a long talk and he was having a hard time and kinda freaked out about spending the day with L and me as "friends". This was the first time, since the divorce, we were all together.

 

As for apologizing for L not having dinner with us, S is well aware of the fact that I know that I am the guilty party. The last time S and I were together in NY we had a long talk about how I treated L, that I was the cause of the divorce and that I want, and I'm working, to win L's heart back. She said during our marriage that she had silently hoped that we would get divorced to put an end to the fighting. She told me that there is no way L is ever coming back to me. S was here, back in July, when I gave L the car and said to me, "I hope that you don't have ulterior motives for giving her the car." All I said was, "I gave your mom the car because your mom deserves the car."

 

S is not walking with God. She is living as worldly a life as one can live. Based on the hypocrisy she experienced growing up with my "on again, off again" relationship with God and my poor treatment of her mom, I cannot blame her. Part of me feels that if/when L and I get back together it will be a witness for her and she will know that God can forgive her for walking away from Him and He is there to receive her back with open arms.

 

Having strayed away from God during our marriage, I know the shame that comes when one knows the Lord and walks willingly into sin. Satan uses this time to make it harder to return to the Lord or in my daughter's case to deny Him and His existence completely. When one had a relationship with the Lord and decides to walk away and live in sin, the only way one can exist is to deny God's existence. We are literally watching her get harder and harder toward God :sad:

 

 

Your prayers are in line with mine and I thank you. I don't know what the right balance is. All I can do is pray and trust God to lead me to do things in His perfect timing. It's going to take the Holy Spirit to speak into this situation as I am unable to. L will say something about God this or God that but I am not allowed to comment to her.

 

 

 

This is what I'm trying to do, I working to become her best friend. For her, I can only be what she's willing to allow me to be and right now it's only a man with a checkbook and a smile. I literally have to take thoughts captive when they they pop up and say, "she's just using you." I think this is why she keeps saying "While I appreciate all you've done, I don't want to take advantage of you." I know the devil is deceiving her and that she is unaware of it.

 

We always talked about how we were each others best friend. She, unknowing or not acknowledging, is still my best friend second now only now to Jesus.

 

Unfortunately we both, during our marriage, bought into lies and made agreements with the devil. We both bought into:

 

* he/she isn't going to change

* this is not worth it

* I married the wrong person

* it doesn't matter what I do it will never be enough

* I'll/We'll never be happy

 

I'm learning to recognize those lies much more quickly now and can easily cast them down. One of the easiest ways to recognize a lie is it usually contains "always" and "never". It also limits the power of God - "he can not change"

 

I still have,

LOWTD

 

 

The devil was not deceiving her - she had enough - enough -- you refused to go to counseling when SHE wanted - you chose a trip to Florida. L has been your mirror all along and was very good at it, although did not have the "tools" to realize what she could have done as your helpmeet, but then again, even the divorce was what this helpmeet should have done - to get your full and undivided attention.

 

at Thanksgiving she chose NOT TO go to the dinner that night because it was too strange and did not want to give false hope -- since we are only reading it from your viewpoint, I asked if you apologized to your adult children about being the reason L did not go to dinner -- did you actually fly them here to bless her? or to show how much $$ you spend to try and win her back, and then don't bow out from dinner so that she could go instead?

 

now, up to date:

IT IS HARD to continue to bless and bless and not even have a discussion with the person you are blessing financially. You really do need to go back and read both of your threads -- because somewhere along the line -- probably at Thanksgiving, Ira, you began changing your focus. You griped me out and reacted badly when I suggested you not spend so much $ on skydiving - an activity that does absolutely nothing to build a relationship with L. (my remark re: Kathy was due to the fact that she was preparing to skydive, although it got postponed -- and was a bit tongue-in-cheek; you took it rudely, so what does that say about what's going on with you, Ira?)

 

And now you have jumped on Carnine, who has been incredibly abused by a superly passive husband -- who has not divorced him (some might think she should have because he just won't DO what he should, and hopefully that is turned around now) - HOW COULD YOU WRITE THAT TO HER -- rubbing her face in the fact that she's been in the ministry for four years -- ?? == for her it's been a marriage full of pain/abuse - this ministry gives her some semblance of "hope" -- SO PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME -- as one who has spent many hours reading and posting to you, Ira. I want to know WHY you we write abusively to one of our abused wives like that. Carnine is an excellent helpmeet!

 

PLEASE get on the men's conference calls and hash this out with Joel and the other husbands. You NEED the iron-sharpening-iron ... and yet you rail against it when you receive it, instead spewing venom at the one trying to point things out to you.

 

I mean really, just recently when I pointed out to you that you were WRONG to not have honored L's desire to bless her son, you fought about this -- how many posts did it take for you to finally admit you were wrong -- and this is a forum and not your bride, and SHE is the one who saw this quite clearly -- I believe THIS IS when she stopped talking to you -- you are still so full of pride and Ira...you absolutely won't let her be right -- only the ideas from you are the good ones (at least that's how it is probably being portrayed to her, for as a woman that's what I saw)

 

Pure In Heart is much more tender of a responder than I, and hopefully you will see that there is wisdom/safety in a host of counsel.... and get back on the MEN's CALLS. Why not make a counseling appointment with Joel and Kathy and get their feedback on some things (the cost for that is soooooo worth it and tremendously helped Ward and I)

 

Please remember the sowing & reaping -- God's principles are forever true -- the reaping of what one sows and a whole lot more of it. During this past year you have also changed what you were sowing, and so there is the promise that you will reap a harvest of those things as well (a whole lot more than you sowed).

 

"Dear Father, we lift this marriage up to you, and ask you to continue to do a Work in the life of Ira, and a vision of hope in L's heart so that she might not be afraid when she sees a "changed" Ira, that she can then trust YOU, Lord, to give her the direction and the opening of her heart that SHE needs. Mindful that agape love is not a feeling, but rather actions more fully described in 1 Cor 13, we bless your Holy Name!"

 

prayerfully,

June of

Edited by Ward & June
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LOWTD,

 

I realize that's a BIG teaching here, I left L years ago, but it's one that I don't buy into, never did. I am thankful that I have been able to learn from this ministry, mostly through the books that I've read but all the cool-aid, sorry, haven't drank it, don't buy into it.

 

So, why do you keep coming back here if only the books have knowledge?

 

It bothered me that I did not understand why I acted the way I did toward L and I kept asking God to show me what caused it so I could change. Being a faithful God He has shown me the root cause of my actions and I've gone to Him and asked forgiveness and I've forgiven myself.

 

 

And HE has forgiven you but you have yet to make ALL the changes needed. We, as messengers of God, are trying to show you where you are still missing the mark but you refuse to listen because you know more than we do. Isn't this the exact same pattern you have described in your marriage of L pointing something out and you not hearing her? You do not have a helpmeet anymore because you chose not to listen. We, God's messengers, are now your helpmeet per say and we are pointing things out. Again, you are refusing to listen. Please tell me Sir, where have you learned to do the one thing she wanted the most for you to listen?

 

God Bless

David

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