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Confused about what I should or should not do and why?


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Well I received a text from L today, "thank you for the check. I would appreciate it if you would stop sending me cards." I just wish I could remember which card I sent with the check so that I know what caused her to feel so defensive. But then again, I guess it really doesn't matter.

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Thank you PlansForHope.   At the moment I am not winning my wife's heart back as she has totally cut herself off from me. She does not know what I'm doing and the hope that I'm believing in for our m

ouch!

 

 

"Father God, we ask for Your intervention against the spirit of bitterness in L. We pray that Your mighty and loving Hand would touch L in such a way that she would know fully the right way to walk in the next steps.... and that she would do so. We pray for Ira as he 'waits upon the Lord' - that as he is now completely 'owning' the dissolution of their marriage, that You, Abba Daddy would grace him and grant him Your favor, Your peace, Your joy as he continues in Doing Your will. satan, you have NO dominion -- none -- we rebuke the stronghold of bitterness and disillusion, we come against any affections that may be interfering with a reconciliation between Ira and L, as we remind you that the precious BLOOD of Jesus, the Lamb that was Slain, and who was and is and is to come IS our Redeemer. It is in Him that we trust.

We bless you, Oh Lord. amen."

 

Well, Ira. apparently, L is seeing the greeting cards as a control -- at least you know this for now. Instead, what you might want to do is put "blessings for you" in the lower left section of the check.

 

When you reply, do not show any hurt feelings about it. "Thank you, L, for letting me know you have the check. I appreciate you sharing your boundary. Your wishes deserve to be honored. Have a blessed day"

 

praying for you,

June of

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You have to live for today, for if you live in the past you live in a place of regret and sorrow, if you try to live in the future it only brings doubt, fear and confusion; however, if you live for today, tomorrow will simply unfold.

 

What you are gong through today is setting you up for your future and prophetic end!!

 

God knows exactly where you are. He understands the storms that assail you on every side. The enemy may be able to roar and make a lot of noise, but the Lion of Judah roars louder and stronger. Keep your focus on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of your faith. The Lord is shaping your character and sharpening your spiritual senses even NOW. Nothing that happens to you is in vain. This travail is forming in you the completion of that vision and dream God deposited in you long ago. It began in seed form and unbeknownst to you is growing stronger and more powerful than you dared thought or imagined. It will be brought forth in its perfect time. Right now it is taking on definition and being perfected in the hidden place with God. God has NOT forgotten His promises to you that were spoken long ago. He knows how and when to resurrect your dream and fulfill your destiny. Believe. Call your harvest in!!

 

Stay the course. You are entering smooth seas!!

 

 

When you reply, do not show any hurt feelings about it. "Thank you, L, for letting me know you have the check. I appreciate you sharing your boundary. Your wishes deserve to be honored. Have a blessed day"

 

This is perfect!! Wow, June is GOOD!!

 

Kimberly

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The only time I hear from L, which the majority of the time comes in the form of text messages, is when she has a financial need. I talk to her, and tell her "no problem" with a smile knowing from all my sales training that people can hear a smile on the other end of the phone.

 

If in the exchange of text message about her needs I ask a question of a different subject, expressing care for her, it gets ignored. If I send a text asking her a question about how things are going, showing any interest for her, it gets ignored. When we happen to be on the phone and I try to bring something else up she has to hurry to get off because she has to go do something else and quickly gets off.

 

A mutual friend of ours told me that she is really happy with her new life in California, how much she "now" dislikes Nashville :huh: , and knowing this I really don't see her coming back.

 

As a result of this, I have decided that it's time to go out and start making "friends", someone that I can enjoy having dinner and/or see a show with, someone to share an occasional night out as I'm tired of going to shows alone and sitting at the bar to have dinner so there's someone to talk to. I'm at the point of realizing that the only difference between the girls on the other side of the bar and a prostitute is that I'm not having sex with the girls behind the bar. Deep down neither is really interested in me but rather only what I'm going to leave at the end of the night.

 

I'm not asking if this is acceptable, as I know what the ministry answer is, nor am I asking for permission. What I would like to know, if anyone would care to respond, is whether or not I should let L know that this is where I'm now at.

 

All last week throughout my time in Florida all I could think of is how much more I would have enjoyed my time had L been with me. The reality is - she's not and she has no intention of it again as she has made it perfectly clear. I just need to accept it.

Edited by Lots of work to do
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Standard ministry response duly deleted. :P

 

I don't think I'd say anything to L. until/unless something starts getting serious. If you tell her you're dating now, that will give her one more reason to keep the door of her heart firmly shut.

 

You should tell L. at about the time the idea of proposing to someone comes to mind. You should also give her plenty of warning when you are going to start withdrawing some of the financial support - I realize that there probably is an amount that's court ordered, but a new wife will not be comfortable with the level of support you're giving L. now. It would be much more fair to L. to gradually withdraw it over a period of months so she can find other ways to make the money she needs.

 

And just so all the helpers don't jump all over me :rolleyes: , I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this idea at this point. But you are gonna do what you're gonna do, so if my opinion helps you to avoid making a total mess of things, then I'll give it.

 

I do totally understand where you're at, Ira - I'm there too, and although I love my girlfriends, going out on a girl date isn't quite the same. And I totally get the feeling that the chance of your ex turning around is about as big as the proverbial snowball in hell. Just remember that God is the master of the last minute miracle - I like to tell people that He is never late, but He is seldom early.

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I just wanted to throw in here something that has been on my mind. I wasn't going to say anything but that last sentence in Looneys post is exactly what I have been thinking.

 

Now let's take things hypothetically. Say you do everything Looney has said to do. You do everything right, withdrawing your support, being hones with L, etc. Say you meet a fantastic woman and you date for a long time hearing nothing from L. You decide this woman is the one for you and decide to propose. You let L know and she is thrilled for you. You plan an amazing date and propose and the woman accepts! You are so happy and ready to start your life together.

 

But a few minutes after the proposal you get a phone call from L. You answer the phone because she NEVER calls. She says she had an incredible encounter with God and realizes how wrong she was for leaving. She wants to come home and hopes it's not too late.

 

The question to consider is what on earth would you do if that did happen? Would you tell L, sorry too late you had your chance? Would you break things off with the woman that you are head over heels in love with?

 

If you know for sure you would break things off with the woman to restore your marriage, I say you shouldn't go forward with your plans. Be 100 percent sure that God is telling you to move in that direction before you go that way. As Looney said, He is never too late.

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But a few minutes after the proposal you get a phone call from L. You answer the phone because she NEVER calls. She says she had an incredible encounter with God and realizes how wrong she was for leaving. She wants to come home and hopes it's not too late.

 

Hmmm - the parable of the prodigal son comes to my mind....

 

Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

(Mal 2:14-15 KJV)

 

- The wife of your "youth", not the second one, third one, etc...

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Ladies, thank you so much for your comments.

 

I was sharing with a friend at work who has know me for three years; she agreed that I should not tell L for the same reasons that you bring out, that L might not open her heart. Also knowing L, she is surprised that L has not responded by now and doesn't think she is going to come back and is afraid for me that if she does it will only be because she realizes how hard it is out there.

 

Just remember that God is the master of the last minute miracle - I like to tell people that He is never late, but He is seldom early.

 

The question to consider is what on earth would you do if that did happen? Would you tell L, sorry too late you had your chance?

 

Would you break things off with the woman that you are head over heels in love with?The question to consider is what on earth would you do if that did happen?

 

If you know for sure you would break things off with the woman to restore your marriage, I say you shouldn't go forward with your plans. Be 100 percent sure that God is telling you to move in that direction before you go that way. As Looney said, He is never too late.

These are the thoughts that are constantly in the forefront of my mind. This is what has kept me from even considering going out with someone.

 

So let me explain where I'm at, I want friends of both genders. I have male friends to go cycling with, to watch football games with, to go out and have some beers with. I'm also part of a men's group in which we share what's going on and hold each other up. It would also be nice to have some lady friends, kind of like Seinfeld who had Elaine to go to the movies, lunch and/or dinner with. Someone that I can get a different life view from.

 

As I look back I realize that most of my life I've had a girlfriend, I didn't know how to have a girlfriend without falling in love.

 

I know that I'm not ready to get into another relationship at this time because I think about the questions above. Therefore my plan is to tell them that I'm only looking to be friends. I'm thinking of calling this, "Operation 7", the goal is to become friends with seven women. Why seven? Because seven is the number of completion. Who knows what will happen, maybe the seventh person will be L coming back into my life.

 

Maybe this will be a way to learn how to treat women right, to practice listening. I've learned that the best relationships come from friendships. L and I got engaged after only two months of knowing each other. We were married seven months after that. We celebrated our first anniversary with a six week old daughter. We never really got to know each other :( I was really looking forward to these years where business is good and we are free to come and go as we pleased. Now I do it alone.

 

As for falling in love, that is a long way off. My heart is guarded and I constantly think, "L why can't you just come home?" Sometimes I also think that maybe I feel this way because L is really all I've known for the last 24 years. Maybe I'm stuck because of this, this is all I know. :blink:

 

The other thing is this - I have full faith in God's ability however we all need to realize that He is NOT going to override L's free will and she has made it perfectly clear that she is not, does not want to, come back.

 

I am not in a rush, I just want to make friends since all the friends WE had abandoned me when L left. Not a very southern thing to do :rotfl:

Edited by Lots of work to do
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TimothyPaul,

 

Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

(Mal 2:14-15 KJV)

 

I'm really glad that you can quote this scripture however it's often used here out of context. If you take some time to read Jewish commentary you will learn that Malachi is stating this because the men were divorcing their wives to marry heathen women for sexual pleasures.

 

You also need to realize that we are in very different circumstances, B is nearby and you still have contact due to younger children and you get to pick up. My children on the other hand are grown and on their own and L is across the country and we have no contact other then hearing from her when she needs money.

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Therefore my plan is to tell them that I'm only looking to be friends.

 

Okay ladies? Whats your take on this. Seems to me, the "friends" concept doesn't fly. Considering the friends are going to be either divorced, unhappily married, or older never married women, what are the odds, that a lady in this position would take "friends" at face value.

 

Lets be real, every potential friend is going to be a wounded woman looking for the healing they have not gotten. Their idea of "friendship" is certainly not going to be supporting Ira to heal "L's" heart.

 

And Ira, will be getting the validation and his needs met from female companionship, not from God. I believe he has good intentions, but when the needs are met from the wrong sources, it may be hard to stand strong....

 

TimothyPaul

 

PS - Ira, I'll get back to the scripture part later. - also, no I don't have any contact with B anymore :(

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TimothyPaul,

 

I'm sorry to hear that you are no longer in contact with B.

 

Considering the friends are going to be either divorced, unhappily married, or older never married women, what are the odds, that a lady in this position would take "friends" at face value.

This is really a very judgemental statement. First, it assumes that I would even consider going out with a married woman. Second, it makes it sound as if a woman is not capable of being friends. Third, at my age, 50, any woman that I take out is going to be either divorced or never married, that's not rocket science.

 

As for healing L's heart, I cannot do any more then I'm doing - praying for her and sending her money, aka respecting the boundaries she has set. This is all she wants so this is all there is. My job is to let her see as best I can that I've changed and continue to change; it's God's job to heal her heart.

 

Three weeks ago I was in Austin for four nights. I spent my evenings at a local restuarant enjoying dinner and drinks at the bar talking to two women my age. Both of them are divorced, one 13 years the other 17 years, and both said they are not interested in getting into another relationship EVER again. They are happy with their lives being able to come and go as they please without having to answer to anyone.

 

Remember, scripture only says "It is not good for man to be alone." Appearantly while women like being in a relationship they are ok being alone. My guess is because they openly share with their girlfriends unlike men who tend to bottle things up.

 

And Ira, will be getting the validation and his needs met from female companionship, not from God.

 

As for validation, I'm not looking for any from anyone which should have been somewhat evident from my comment

 

I'm not asking if this is acceptable, as I know what the ministry answer is, nor am I asking for permission.

The only validation I need or look for comes from God contrary to what you may think.

 

I do want to thank you for confirming my thoughts, that if anyone would send anything that would be judgemental and/or anything other then the request I made it would be you.

 

I wish you all the best. May you someday get back together with B.

 

Ira

Edited by Lots of work to do
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Ira,

 

The whole premise you are building your case upon is faulty through and through. Where in all of this planning your life is God? Has His voice spoken a new directive? Has the Holy Spirit given you peace about the plans you are formulating? Is this decision based upon His Word?

 

This is NOT about you, about your needs, about your comfort or loneliness. God cares for you, so cast all your cares on Christ. If you are overwhelmed with your own cares then it draws the enemy to your door.

 

He is mindful of what He is asking of you and knows more about you than you do. Your times are in HIS hands not your own. It sounds to me like you handed your life over to God until it no longer suited your plans.

 

Your decisions, it appears are NOT based in revealed TRUTH but based in your own logic that says, I must allay MY own fears by giving myself permission to do what I think is best for ME. I will find some way out of this. To find a way of escape from the rigors of being tested and tried.

 

How can you put a measuring line on God's power? Is He not able to move heaven and earth on your behalf. God is married to the backslider. You might do well in being like Him and ask Him to put this heart in you. Does L being in California have the power to undo God's command to love? It would seem then that God has lied when He said that, Love never fails. Whether or not she surrenders to the love of God through you does not mean that love has ceased having its perfect way in YOU. L's refusing to believe the truth will not stop the Spirit of God from moving in your life. Just the sheer fact that you will not give up speaks volumes to a woman's heart. She does not have to be in your presence to know that. Many waters cannot quench love.

 

You have this sense of entitlement still. It is in your words and you do not even see it. You are angry and indignant that you give her money and she does not respond the way you think she should. This is being a responder. This is having feelings about her feelings towards you. She did/didn't do___________, Ira felt (responded).

 

How do you know it is not effecting her? A woman who has been wounded will hold her thoughts close to herself lest she be made a fool of in even thinking them. Her inward heart is being effected. Have you ever considered that it is the Spirit of God in her that is leading her to not speak yet? To test you, so she can see your resolve and steel?

 

If you take away acts of kindness and goodness then what has God to work with to convince her that she is loved? Miracles do have raw materials God works with and mere men who allow themselves to be the vessel He works THROUGH. It is the working of miracles. God works it and works it and works it until, as if out of nowhere, it shows up. Just like God used Moses staff to work through. Man has an obedience. He gives God something to work through. Faith believes He knows what He is doing NOT that you UNDERSTAND what He is doing.

 

Why would you, after all of your diligence, faith and love for Jesus, cheapen the work of God He has done in you? And it is a glorious work he has started. He will finish it if you do not get out of the race you are already in.

 

There will be a time to stop pursuing and the Lord will let you know it. In the meantime, why don't you find a hurting soul to pour into all he has taught you. You are gifted with intellect and leadership. Being a GIVER into others lives is what you are made for. Occupy until He comes. That will keep you focused rightly instead of inwardly focused on what you need and what you tell yourself you do not have. Again, you think even God owes you something. Serving others brings joy. It is like you would sell your birthright for a night in a woman's company. Now this would perfectly fine IF God has told you that it is time for that.

 

For a married man the way to mature will always be in laying down your life until God's peace floods your soul and releases you. Releasing ourselves is to short-circuit the plan and purpose of God for teaching you HOW to grow in maturity UNTIL you reach the full measure of stature of Christ.

 

All God asked of you is 3 years. I personally believe the 2 year mark is nothing. Jesus knew it would take 3 years to rewire the human brain and bring transformation in a man.

 

You want what you want and it has not even been 3 years yet. You have not even finished the course set before you. I am not convinced that you wholeheartedly believe what God has spoken to you about being a husband. You do not want to BE that man it seems. You only want to be that man if there is something in it for YOU. How is this reflecting Christ's attitude?

 

There is TIME for God to unfold His plan in your life. Why are you insisting on running ahead of the Lord? It takes perseverance to work the truth into your spirit man. It takes time for roots to form that go deep and hold you fast. You started out as an acorn because the Lord envisioned an oak of righteousness.

 

You will fall flat on your face and end up in a worse mess than you are right now. Having done all then you stand. Do ALL then WAIT for the power of the Holy Spirit to move at the appointed time. Do not run your maturity process into the ground. Do not move off of your assignment until God has said it is complete. What path has God assignedfor you? Be certain of HIS path and do not get off of it. It will lead to life. Unfinished assignments lead to having to do them again. Let's pass this way once and not take the long way around!!

 

It is about honoring God. Now you talk a good talk Ira. But when push comes to shove in your life, well, that is where the true Ira is revealed. To put you down? No!! To reveal how much farther God needs to take you and wants to WORK a greatness in you. God is kind to walk with you and lead you to maturity. He knows it is not easy but it is worth it.

 

It is STILL God's clarion call to you to be like His Son. This has never changed. It is within the realm of possibility that a man can so change that he does not even have to utter a syllable and still send a message. When God's presence is with a man, others know it.

 

Has God suddenly become impotent? Has He no power to work wonders, STILL? Is God bound by time and distance? What makes you think that God is on your timetable or L for that matter? You have put God in a box.

 

Where are the great men of God in these times? Is there any faith upon the Earth? Will the Lord find YOU faithful to entrust His Kingdom to and push back the darkness that seeks to rob and kill and destroy? Is the god of this age greater than the Lord whose service you are in?

 

I think the enemy is trying to trick you. He is very persuasive.

 

Praying you seek His face and find His heart in these matters.

 

Shalom,

 

Kimberly

Edited by Pure in Heart
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Good Morning Ira,

 

I do not want to take away from what PIH wrote - but I'll post some forum insight Firewalker puts on most threads in the very beginning. Not sure if in the fay of life, you have lost site of the the reason for the forums...

 

Here is my counsel to maximize the use of these message boards:

 

First, the feedback or insight about your life or your relationship is neither good nor bad. It is just feedback. So try not to be so judgmental or "shoot the messenger" if you don't agree with them. BTW, we are not "haters", really, we all have busy lives full of responsibilities and our own share of challenges. When someone takes the time to post, 90% of the time it is with really good intentions.

 

Second, when you receive another's insight or perspective, consider that they may have many decades of life experiences to draw from, so try not to paint us all in such broad strokes of whether we are "exactly" like your situation or not. When you do this, you miss out on some really helpful information.

 

Third, when you find you are resistant to what someone is saying, be willing to ask yourself some questions like:

Why does this make me so angry?

Is this too painful for me to look at right now?

Do I want to be right, or do I want to walk in truth and love?

Sometimes staying in the questions can tell you alot about yourself and your belief system. Sit with it awhile before you react. I know this is difficult at times, but can give you precious time to really hear from the Spirit of God as He wants to lead you in the truth.

 

Fourth, Suggestions, advice or insight about your life and situations are like jackets: they won't all fit you, but you won't know until you try it on.

Sometimes it doesn't fit because it is too tight; we find it limits us and what our head is telling us is right for us. We are sure it will squeeze the life right out of us if we try. Maybe God wants us to lose some excess weight to fit into it.

Sometimes it doesn't fit because it is too loose; we might have to grow up a little and grow into the fit that ultimately will be fabulous.

Sometimes it doesn't fit us because we judge it to be absurdly stupid or uncool; we see it like it will be permanent and perhaps the jacket is only for the current season.

Sometime it doesn't fit us because it is for a different occasion. It might be perfect then, but right now doesn't seem the right fit.

Sometimes it is a lovely jacket, but after consideration, and trying it on for a bit, we see that it really isn't for us. It doesn't mean that the giver was wrong; they were sincerely trying to meet your heartfelt need for a jacket.

 

Fifth, It is more effective when you stay here on your own thread and in this case, let your wife, should she actually start a thread, have her thread to herself. When you "hijack" her thread, you control the thread and people find themselves responding to you and her questions go unspoken. By all means, read her thread, but talk about yourself and express yourself on your own.

This is more efficient.

This is more courteous.

This is more emotionally mature.

This gives a woman greater emotional safety and the freedom to speak her mind without the fear of retribution or defensiveness from you.

 

Sixth, trust the process and surrender the outcome. Life is not tidy, it is very, very messy. You can't wrap relationships up in a few months of "to do" lists. It doesn't work that way. But, if you trust that the Lord has called you to seek wise counsel and that He will prosper you when you seek His ways, you can trust the outcome to Him. The outcome will be what it will be. Trying to control it completely is like trying to play God. You end up, face down in the mud, wondering how did it all go so wrong.

 

Seven, and for now my final suggestion, You always get to choose. When someone asks you to do something, or makes a suggestion that you do something or even requires you to do something, you always get to choose. You make a choice and you are also choosing the consequences of that choice. So, you are never in jail, metaphorically speaking. You have made all your own choices in your adult life. Some of which you are proud of, some which have nearly destroyed you, and some which you don't even know why you did what you did. Nonetheless, they are your choices. Others also are affected by our choices, so the consequences of our choices are almost never in isolation. Your wife also has choices. You cannot choose for her. You cannot control her. She has to choose for herself. The sooner you get this concept, the better all of your relationships will be: with God, with yourself, with wife, with family, with everyone.

 

I hope you find this helpful.

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Ira,

It seems to me that when you do not agree with someone, then it is YOU that is correct.

This is probably how you dealt with L all those years. It was YOU who was always right.

 

you don't like the scriptures of "treacherously" in Malachi, so IRA is correct -- not J&K, not anyone else on this forum.... just Ira.

 

http://bibletab.com/t/treacherously.htm

94 times the words "treacherous" (34 times) or "treacherously" (42 times) or "treachery" (18 times) are in the Bible --

 

HAVE you read Livin' It and Lovin' It lately? if not, please re-read it.

 

So, now let's get to the bottom line:

As far as I can tell:

* you are STILL blaming L for the divorce

* you do not view yourself as married (even though the Lord does) because you have a divorce paper

* you don't want to discuss this with other men on the conference calls to be able to hash it out -- instead just through the forum where you can "throw down" your OWN ideas

* instead of joining an older married couple or perhaps another unmarried Christian man for dinner, you are going to entertain the notion that "just friends" with (married) women is okay -- please remember, that "divorce" is a sheet of paper, a legal document, and in the eyes of the LORD, those women are also married (and they should be referred to the J&K books)

* that it is okay for Ira to be the "responder" regarding how L is behaving or in her non-responses

 

Months ago, we asked that you go ahead and send L $$ without her HAVING to ask you for it. So, good job on that. Are you stating that you are sending her plenty of $$ FIRST and that she comes up with other expenses that she cannot handle? Just the thought that she is still willing to ask you for $$ is a positive to me -- this means she "needs" you (she and/or you might look at it as "using" you, but in reality, Ira, it IS HER $$, too, and she "needs" you), HOWEVER, if you are purposely NOT sending her enough $$ so that HAS to ask you, then that is not laying down your life for her OR living with understanding of her, it is abusive.

 

Ira, I do understand the pain of not having the feelings returned (YET) -- and I still believe that L will turn back to you, IF YOU are being sincere and are not having an "I am right, you are wrong" attitude with an "I don't care what you say, I'm going to do it my way, BUT how should I go about doing it my way?" message

 

As a mother, I am to agape-love my children. Having my own situation with my oldest daughter has brought me to my knees, to massive tears and pain, for 9 years now, and yet, Ira, I STILL agape-love her within her boundaries as best as I can. Now, obviously I am not going to look for a replacement oldest daughter or granddaughter. That is what you are doing with L. Since SHE is not going to respond (yet) to what you are DOing for her the way you would like, then you are just going to "pick up your toys and go play elsewhere"

 

Eating meals alone is the MOST lonesome of times -- that is agreed.

 

What I would say is why not join in with married couple staff members of your church OR your

son OR the less fortunate OR even at a nursing home/assisted living near you OR some ministry involvement OR a support group .... but sitting at a bar talking to women - is this just to stroke your ego because they will think you are a nice guy??

 

L knew you better than anyone and she could not handle it. The divorce was to give her some space to heal. The move to CA was to give her a LOT more space to heal -- and IF she is involved with someone out there, then it is time to pray differently for her while you continue to agape-love her.... not to give up. Becoming "friends" with other women IS giving up.

 

Have you asked L if she would like your son and/or daughter wanting to visit their mom in CA? If so, why not offer to pay for them to fly there? [and no, not to spy on her for you... but I would hope that they would have comments to make to L about how their dad only says wonderful things about their mother.] Having her children there for a visit "could" be a blessing to her - and is also showing that you are still "in it" to bless your bride.

 

You had said before that L's sister was NOT for the marriage restoration, so WHY listen to her about anything L is doing? Listen to the Holy Spirit instead. Do you really believe in your heart that "husbands agape-love your wife" means ONLY until she is having a great time in CA and is only accepting $ from me??

 

come on, Ira.

 

get real, be honest and "lay down YOUR life for your bride" (this means YOUR wants, YOUR desires)

 

and get on the men's conference calls and let them KNOW that you need help in the discernment of what to do with these sorrowful thoughts

 

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" -- I implore you, by these scriptures alone, to WAIT until L is totally done with you, Ira, until she gets married again (and it is my hope that it will be with you :D ) before you hang out with other women.

 

 

praying for you,

June of

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Ira,

 

L is NOT with you because of everything June wrote in that post above.

 

You need to pray and ask God to open the eyes of your heart.

 

If we here see these attitudes and motives of your heart....then we KNOW L has seen these in you the whole time.

 

If you want to truly BECOME a MAN that looks like a living representation of Christ then take heed to your spirit.

 

Kimberly

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The Lord has sought out a man after his own heart~~1 Samuel 13:14

 

The Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.~~Hebrews 4:12

 

God created the wife to speak the Word of God to the husband.

 

Her responses with pinpoint, spot on accuracy beam the light of truth on both a man's moral failures, and his success in attaining stature in Christ. They cut and slice through all of his defenses, ego and pride. His lies, denial and secrets done under the cover of darkness are revealed by her responsive nature. Her responses even uncover his self-deception.

 

Her responses are HOW a husband identifies his strongholds of sin. He looks into the mirror of her responses to be convicted of sin and convinced of the truth about himself. It reveals his truest character or lack thereof.

 

Her NEEDS are the path and plan to walk out agape love and grow in the character of Jesus Christ. Thank God for coming up with the idea of help-meet.

 

The mature man loves his wife in two ways: By bringing her life and strength and by bringing her healing.

 

He brings her strength through tangible expressions of attentive, considerate, compassionate, tender-hearted love. He is kind and shows her goodness all the days of her life. There is no need too great for him to meet.

 

He brings her healing by NOT questioning her responses to him, but by believing beyond any shadow of doubt the design of the creature taken out of his side. That she is absolutely perfect reflection of him. Her fear, her anger, her tears and the point and counsel of her words are a revelation of precisely where he has NOT died to sin and therefore, how he continues to hurt and abuse her.

 

It takes a MATURE man to believe HER and to receive correction from her without second guessing her or defending himself in his wrong.

 

When he takes full ownership for the pain he has caused her and takes responsibility to repair and bring reparation to her wound, it will open the door for God to bring healing through the husband.

 

From the very depths of her being she cries out to be believed and validated by her husband. She cries out to be HEARD by her husband and this takes LISTENING and hanging on her every word. To her, this will be vindication from the Lord.

 

It ushers in security to the marriage and trust in her husband. This is also how she is healed.

 

Joshua

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It has become very apparent to me, that as a participant in this group, I must agree with everything that j&k say because obviously only j&k have the right answers; that if I believe something different I must be wrong because only j&k, and the helpers here, are right.

 

While I do agree with much of what June wrote she is inaccurate in many of the things she wrote.

 

you don't like the scriptures of "treacherously" in Malachi

I never said I didn't like this Scripture just that it is taken out of context because j&k have given it their meaning.

 

you are STILL blaming L for the divorce

I am not blaming L for the divorce. I told her and everyone I know that I was the one responsible for the divorce because of my abuse. I even told this to a friend that I had lunch with yesterday, a woman from church who I gave the book "Discovering the Heart of a Man." She's in the process of reading, "Discovering the Mind of a Woman".

 

As for the money, I have sent L far above what is required, and I still send her money every week, because I feel a scriptural obligation to help her, not because it's her money. She has as much entitlement to the money I earn as I have to the money she earns. If she is struggling it is because of the path she has chosen just as my son said to me I have to accept that I am divorced because of my choices and the way I treated L.

 

 

The divorce was to give her some space to heal. The move to CA was to give her a LOT more space to heal

This statement reflects being inside her head, KNOWING what her thoughts and motives are. The divorce was to end our marriage, get away from me, and start a new life. Maybe I'm wrong but only L and God really know.

 

Just the thought that she is still willing to ask you for $$ is a positive to me -- this means she "needs" you

I don't see it this way, that she needs me. I am very certain that if she found a job in her profession I wouldn't even hear from her unless there was a need that the children had. Like I've been told, "she lived with me and knows me better then anyone". I also lived with her and know her better then anyone; something that everyone here who have never exchanged a single word with her doesn't seem to want to acknowledge.

 

You had said before that L's sister was NOT for the marriage restoration, so WHY listen to her about anything L is doing?

I never said anything about her sister saying anything to me.

 

I implore you, to WAIT until L is totally done with you, Ira, until she gets married again (and it is my hope that it will be with you) before you hang out with other women.

Every women I know that is married to another man has waited ten years before finding their second or third husband. I know you won't like hearing this but I'm not going to wait five, ten, fifteen years or longer pretending I'm a married man waiting for L to decide what she wants to do.

 

L told me that she saw changes taking place, she told me that she was considering getting back together with me. She has since told me that I need to move on with my life, that I will make a good husband for someone, that there is no way she is going to go back to me.

 

As I said in the beginning,

It has become very apparent to me, that as a participant in this group, I must agree with everything that j&k say because obviously only j&k have the right answers; that if I believe something different I must be wrong because only j&k, and the helpers here, are right.

 

I've been taught by this ministry that I need to listen to my wife. I'm going to do just that.

 

With both made poor choices with our lives and we both have to live with the consequences of them.

 

Thank you for your help.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for your prayers.

 

May God bless you all.

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Have it your way, then. Do you know better than God's word? You are in a covenant marriage? Joined together as one flesh IF married in the church. There is a carnal world and a spiritual world; I think the problem is being perfectly illustrated that you believe you are right and the world turns according to your (possibly incorrect) interpretation of it. But God will not take away your ability to exercise your free will. So, it's all up to you. God is a gentleman, He will let you chose yourself.

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You are in a covenant marriage?

I'm confused, is this a trick question? I have always thought I was but it's been pointed out here that I think I'm right with the tone that I'm really wrong. So I've been thinking that Joel, David (ForHimForHer) and TimothyPaul have told me that I broke the covenant a long time ago because I failed to agape love L the way I was supposed to, even though I was unaware that what I was doing was abusive I am guilty. I've heard Joshua on the men's call say the same thing, that I broke the covenant. So I'm thinking, "No", because I broke the covenant. But everything I seem to think is wrong so I guess, "I don't know".

 

I broke the covenant and she finalized it because she was reflecting what she thought I wanted. It is what it is :(

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Chrysallis,

 

It is very rare that I will defend Ira. I think he is arrogant, prideful, and has moved from the two year old he started this process, up to a 5 year old and stopped there. ( - the words "I think" implies judgment Ira - yes, I am being judgmental)..

 

However, that being said. I do find with most of the guys I talk to, until they are exposed to the forms of abuse we learn here, most really are clueless. And as much as I have talked to Ira, he is in the same boat as myself and many guys on this.

 

I am not saying we shouldn't know better. All the tools are out there for a man to be able to figure this out without this ministry spoon feeding them. But we by virtue of our pride and ego, we just don't see it until something "light" the way for us.

 

I have found very few guys when they promise to love, cherish, etc., have the intent to abuse their wives. The heart is there for many to want to be good husbands, but society, churches, and our parents really mess us up big time.

 

As June would say....my .02

 

TimothyPaul

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