Kay and Bob - We are finally making it!

[Judy]

You're not the first one who has told us that their husband doesn't agree with Joel, it's too hard, etc. The carnal man struggles moment by moment with surrendering to God, but when they do give up and die to self, then God can work in their heart and bring restoration.

 

Something we all need to remember is yes our husband isn't Joel and we aren't Kathy so things will be slightly different for us.

 

This isn't just J&K's message they are showing us God's instruction to His church!

[Rebecca]

This isn't just J&K's message they are showing us God's instruction to His church!

 

Amen!

[AB]

After reading this post, I immediately remember something Joel wrote in Book # 2. I have written some of it here (see page 23-24 of Book # 2):

 

"Paul is one of those men who so far, has turned out to be incorrigible. We could never get him to "buy into" the whole concept of laying his life down to meet his wife's needs. Life a few other husbands who read our books and fail to enjoy an outrageously happy marriage, Paul "agreed with a lot of what Joel and Kathy say." What good is that? I can agree with a lot of what Ghandi says. Agreement does not mean that I am going to join his movement.........We are after a total paradigm change in the way that couple believes and approaches marriage A man has no chance for a happy marriage who says "I agree with most of this but I still believe that my wife is supposed to submit to me. I am suppose to be the leader and I believe that marriage is 50/50. My wife is not innocent. She is at least half responsible for our problems" This man's horrible marriage will never be restored. Regardless of the logic in his arguments, he will never have an outrageously happy marriage"

 

I'm just not convinced that your husband buys into this, (at least not yet) based on what you have posted.

[Kay]

You're right. He's not buying into it completely. This is the problem. This is why I am having such a hard time moving forward. He is not with the program, He is like the guy who was described in book #2. He accepts some of it, but not willing to completely lay down his life for me.

 

Things are so much better than before, and my kids are beginning to heal. And, the last thing that I want to do is feel guilty for the rest of my life that I was a part of messing up my kids life, by leaving him.

 

But, I don't want to stay with someone who only loves me under his terms.

 

I also see that when I stay strong and make him accountable, and he starts worrying that he is going to lose me, he does come back to me, apologizing and willing to try again.

 

Only time will tell. We are in the early stages, still. I won't give up, yet.

 

Kay

[Kay]

Dory,

 

I love reading your posts. Actually, as soon as I realized that you are only a few months ahead of us, I got more intrigued. It also made me feel better to hear you talk about some of the frustrations you were going through with Nemo on the Conference Call last Thursday. Made me realize that I am not the only one that rides the coaster.

 

I don't know about you, but this Forum has helped me so much. I have always been the type to listen to advice from others. You can never stop learning. I listen, but also follow my own instincts. No one knows my husband better than me.

 

I did want to point out something though.... I have not gone through the emotion of revenge. I have never wanted to get even with him for all of the heartache he has put me through. I know deep down that he feels terrible for hurting me, and if he could take it all back, he would. I hurt when he hurts. Love will do that. But, I also know that it will not hurt him to worry about me leaving him, when he is mistreating me. It does seem to make him turn back around when he sees me giving up on him. So, Dory, Rebecca, Judy, Melissa, Kim, and all of the others that I didn't mention, you have all been right.... He is the initiator, I am the responder. I need to always make him be accountable for his actions.

 

I'm not a Saint, I have my faults too, but.... I am trying. I have a lot of faith in God and I just need to be patient and let him do his work on his own time, and not on mine.

 

As for sex issues ?? I'll have to get back to you, Dory, on that.

Right now, sex is the furthest thing from my mind.

 

My emotions have been draining me. I am so tired and stressed, that all I can think about is sleeping.

 

I like the advice I got, to Relax a little ! I'm going to try really hard to do that during our trip. I could sure use a break!

 

Take Care of yourselves.....and to ALL of you who have replied to my posts,.... thank you. Knowing that people care is as good as getting 20 hugs, 20 kisses, and 20 smiles.

 

God Bless,

Kay

[JoelandKathy]

Kathy and I struggled for that first six months - me defaulting to my ego and pride, and Kathy feeling like things would NEVER change for real. After SIX LONG MONTHS, God spoke to Kathy and said, "It is safe for you to BEGIN trusting Joel. The change is starting to take root in his heart for real."

 

Bottom line? A wife has to enjoy the times when he does good, such as when Kay's husband cornered her with love and passion - and keep hope alive when he is floundering.

 

There is a line between a man who is taking two steps forward and one step back, and one who is deciding not to live this life at all. A wife can normally tell the difference. If a wife senses that he is still moving forward, then her job is to encourage him with a warm and positive response when he is doing well - while of course not "letting him get away with it" when he is doing badly.

 

Blessings!

 

Joel and Kathy

[JoelandKathy]

We have been in Africa and have not been online to see the posts. I have read only page one of four so far, and wow, am I impressed at the wonderful transparent counsel that is being offered in this forum by you who are contributing. This is truly a unique and effective forum.

 

As for initiating sex: If a man will at least initiate SOMETHING every night - a back rub, a leg rub, a nice bit of attention given to the breasts, back, legs etc. etc. - then something may develop, and again, something may not develop; the important point is that a husband lets his wife know that he is interested, and makes her feel good, even if he is not "up" for completing the process on a given night!

 

We had fun at our last intensive, talking about herbs that increase a guys ability to be "up". Horny Goat Weed is a herb that is sold on convenience store counters - and other herbs are available at health food stores.

 

If a husband does not have a natural energy on a given night, he can also give his wife a great time with oral sex. For J and K, when J starts this, even if he does not think he is going to be "up" for anything more, the fun of Oral Sex generally gets him up and interested! Even if Joel does not get "up", Kathy still gets the benefit!

 

Kathy is also good at often asking Joel if he wants some "attention". The direct approach of a hand massage or etcetera generally gets even the most tired of men up and at it.

 

Looking forward to seeing you in about 10 days, Kay. We will talk about these things with hubby.

 

I am going to go back and read as much of pages 2 - 4 of this post that I have time to read now.

[JoelandKathy]

Self-blame and denial for our heart felt needs are the actions of an emotionally arrested wife! That is a great line, Dori.

 

God created a wife to get her emotional needs met from her husband. A husband who is arrested in his emotional development finds it almost impossible to meet his wife's needs! He grows by meeting HER needs. She responds by getting healed, and ultimately becoming the awesome wife she always knew she could be.

 

Amazing, but a complete explaination of why marriages struggle so much. A man is arrested in his development, and marries a woman who is at his same level. She gets hurt further because he is self focused for years in the marriage, refusing to meet her needs.

 

When our books are introduced, a man has to begin the EXTREMELY painful process of growth and maturity by listening to his wife and meeting HER needs. As her needs are met, she begins to get healed. He is growing and maturing - and yes, getting healed of his issues at the same time.

 

A wife "helps" her husband in this process by being an accurate "mirror" back to him of his treatment of her.

 

Kay, you and your husband are going through the process of seeing him gasping for life for his ego, pride and self centeredness.

 

This is not easy. If it were easy, then every marriage would be happy, happy, happy. The fact is that the way to a happy marriage is death to self for a husband, as he hears her heart and meets her needs.

 

Kathy and I lived through this. Kathy often felt hopeless in the first six months as you, Kay, often feel hopeless. My selfishness shined through worse than probably any husband for that first six months.

 

If you recall from the Thursday conference call, I actually was still convincing Kathy that we could still be friends with the other couple. I convinced her we should still visit them. This was AFTER Life Skills. I would have not believed this if Kathy had not found an old letter, written to me in September of 1994, a month AFTER Life SKills. In that letter, she was BEGGING me to not take her and I to their home to visit.

 

Eyags. Today, with what we know, our counsel would be simple. We would say what Dr. Paul Hegstrom said to Kathy: "You need to prepare to kick him out. If you don't, he may never get it."

 

Kathy decided against that as I, like Kay's husband, would come back and apologize for whatever the current problem was. We made it; step by excruciating step. Kathy suffered WAY more than she should have sufferred. I was the ultimate child. I felt like Kathy was trying to "imprison" me by "making" me cut off contact with the couple.

 

Step by step.

 

We will look forward to talking with your husband next week, Kay. (Did I say ten days in the last post? It is this Tuesday: only five days from now.)

 

Kay, for reference, if you decide to leave, at some point, don't leave yourself. Tell him to leave. If YOU leave, then when you come back, if you come back, you will be coming back onto HIS turf. Subconciously, you are coming back on HIS terms.

 

Yes, a man will work hard to create the world he had before he read our books or comes to an Intensive. A wife cannot allow this.

 

We DO want wives to handle their husbands with kids gloves sometimes - when he IS doing well. Some praise and appreciation for the effort he does make is a good thing. Husbands are to be like Christ, and Jesus enjoys our praise. Even so, a husband, when he EARNS it, by DOING WELL, loves to get praise and recognition for the efforts he is putting forth.

 

Dori, Rebecca, Kim and everyone else who has posted, "Well done!" This is exactly what we were hoping for when we imagined what this forum would be like.

 

Kay, see you on Tuesday!

[JoelandKathy]

At the beginning, my husband Tom went out in the woods and yelled "God this doesn't work."

It's not that it doesn't work, it's that the carnal nature of man needs to be put to death on a moment by moment basis.

[JoelandKathy]

That last quote was from Judy's husband, Tom. Read their full testimonies on the testimony page section.

 

Kay, you asked about couples who are making it. There are so very, very many. The forum is new, and will continue to attract those couples who are highly motivated to help others. Mike and Annalea, Rebecca and Nathan, Kim and John, Tom and Judy, David and Melissa etc: These type of couples have a calling on their lives to help others.

 

Our vision includes this: building a "team" of ministers, all over the country. Actually, Kathy calls it "fires" all over the country.

 

Many other couples are helping many people, but not on the forum. Tom and Kristen, Doug and Kelley (see testimonies at front of Livin it and Lovin it!) Jay and Christy, so many couples who have never been on the forum. Different people have different likes and dislikes.

 

We have included testimonies in almost every newsletter that we have sent out for the last three years. All of the couples who have testimonies in the two books are doing well, except for one. (Remember the testimony about the husband who did not want to cut the beard, and who pulled the car over repeatedly? He was on a mental medication and went off the deep end. Leeanne gets on the group calls from Australia.)

 

Everyone else whose testimonies are in the books are doing great.

 

Here is a cut and paste of a letter we wrote to Judy in a seperate e-mail that isolates different reactions to the message:

 

"We have had a lot of miracles of couples just reading the books and doing it on their own. We have also had a number of couples read the book and the men just flop. Most couples just go on with their lives after they get their miracle. We stay in regular contact with some of the folks, but they are not interested in doing the forum/conference calls etc. This makes no sense to us and to you, because we are called to help others - but for people who don't feel any urgency to help others, it makes perfect sense.

 

We don't have a percentage yet on our weekend Intensives. Since we have required people to read both books before attending, the immediate results are much better and longer lasting percentage wise. We have had a 100% success rate, as far as we know, except for two couples who are struggling, but the jury is still out. We believe they will end up successful.

 

Because it takes three years for permanent change, most couples struggle, some severely, (as Kathy and I did) for the first six months or so. Others seem to effortlessly make the transition and changes. Some couples who we thought were not making progress only looked that way: In reality, they were just going through hard times of growth and we find them improving in spite of temporarily, (in some cases), looking worse at first!

 

Some couples just don't make it at all. In 90% of these cases, it is the husband alone who is at fault. In one out of ten, both are at fault, or it is a wife who makes it impossible. In the general population, a wife is "at fault" in only about one percent of marriages. When you deal with the worst of the worst marriages, and you look at ten couples who do not get a miracle, the wife is at fault in maybe one in ten. She has just gotten too bitter and hardened, and refuses to be comforted.

 

Realize that ministries like ours, and yours, will often attract the worst of the worst marriage cases.

 

Our goal is to get marriages healed, or to end the misery without murder or suicide!

 

In some cases, we are successful if we can convince a wife to divorce her husband or legally seperate - allowing an attorney to put the full weight of the law against her husband concerning child support and alimony!

 

If a man is completely unwilling, and his wife has suffered for years under the submit and pray teachings - yet she is almost emotionally dead - then it is a miracle to convince that woman to actually get out of the marriage!

 

In those cases, we always remind her that it is for the purpose of restoration - and if she does it right, taking all control out of the husband's hands, then most men will turn and repent."

 

The saddest cases are those where a wife just keeps waiting and praying and hoping for twenty years, and the church tells her to not divorce him - and he ends up divorcing HER, and she ends up getting nothing.

 

We don't want this to happen, EVER - our teachings, (the BIBLE'S teachings!) eliminate this from happening. Either a couple ends up with a happy marriage, or the misery is ended by a wife taking control. As long as she takes that control with a right attitude: no bitterness and looking to the Lord, then this often results in a repentant man. The wife MUST be willing to receive him back if he repents.

 

Browse through the books, the archived newsletters at InJesus and the testimonies that are posted on the website. Be encouraged. HUNDREDS of couples, all over the world, are "Livin' It and Lovin' It!"

 

We got a call two weeks before leaving for Africa that THRILLED us! Do you remember "Ken and Christine" from book one? We lost touch with them for 2 and a half years. Ken called, out of the blue. My first question: "Ken, are you living an OUTRAGEOUSLY HAPPY MARRIAGE?" He said, "Yes, we sure are!" Amazingly, he had no idea we had a second book! They got their miracle on the first edition of the book (green, handbook size) - and they got their miracle with an electronic copy of the book!

 

Read their testimonies again in the beginning of The Man of Her Dreams/The Woman of His! AWESOME testimonies! Blessings to all! The "other side" is a really, really happy, happy place.

[dory]

GReat to hear again from J&K. Phew we thought we lost you! (':lol:')

 

Kay,

 

When I wrote: Be cautiously optimistic. In fact, its not a bad thing if you DON'T respond to him "for a season". Consequences (and penance) are not a bad thing! Its a natural and Godly thing to pull back while you heal.

 

I did not mean to suggest "revenge" and I hope that this is not a misinterpretation of the above when you wrote: I have not gone through the emotion of revenge.

 

I know I am defending, and I hope it is all moot. I am glad that your feelings are not of revenge. My notes above are consistent with natural consequence that he must accept if you indeed need to pull back to heal and settle yourself. The feeling in that circumstance is not one of revenge, (you are right) but rather just one of self-preservation.

 

I hope you are able to find great resolution when you meet with J&Kin a few days. That is exciting. I will pray for you as well.

 

Best wishes,

[Kay]

I'm glad YOU'RE excited. I am nervous. But, very glad to see K & J again

[dory]

I know. I've said it before, "exactly WHO feels a puppy going to the vet for shots - Me or Hubby" - when we went to see J&K?

 

I am so glad you are sticking with this. I've had plenty of moments where I didn't think we'd make it. J&K pulled us through those times.

 

Trust them and DO what they suggest. Pray for your miracle and look for it.

 

All in God's name for the purposes of a saved marriage for the generations that follow you.

 

you can DO this! you will be blessed.

[Kay]

Dory,

 

Thanks for your encouragement. I am feeling better about it all. My husband doesn't want to give up on us either, and the last thing he said to me during one of our more serious discussions, was that he is willing to try again, and will hang in there and do whatever it takes to pull us through this. That helped me so much. I needed to hear that from him.

 

Joel and Kathy are God Sends. I feel very fortunate to be given this opportunity to see them again. I will continue to pray for that miracle, and try to keep the patience.

 

Hope all is well with you both too. 3 years seems forever to have Men re-programmed, but in reality, it's not all that long, and certainly worth the effort. We fell in love and married them for a reason, and it was meant to be forever. We can do this!

 

God Bless,

Karen

[nemo]

Hello Kay,

 

May God's love shine upon you and your husband and may you both recognize it and accept it.

 

I am Nemo, husband to my lovely bride Dory. I feel it is very important that you understand that I am in complete agreement with everything she has said to you up to this point concerning your marriage. It is chilling to read some of your posts. Moments ago I had tears dripping off my nose because the behavior your husband displayed on page one is so familiar to me (wow, too many 'I's and 'me's in this note already).

 

What you have gone through is almost unbelievable. Our hearts go out to you. I doubt I can even imagine the pain you must feel... but I suspect Dory can come close, because we have only been married half as long.

 

Your husband is absolutely hiding something. His pattern of resistance and defensiveness when you come close to the truth is just too familiar. Confront him now. Tell him that the difference between coming clean by himself and being found out by you will be huge and incomparably painful. And you will find out. God will bring this sin into the light sooner or later. The shame he will have to bear will far outweigh the satisfaction he gets out of whatever secret obsession he has, be it porn, another woman, or who knows what.

 

It will be immensely painful either way. But if he brings it into the light himself, he will retain one very important treasure... your trust. Further, the time and effort to recover will be so much less because he will have you to help him.

 

I cannot stress this enough. I was a coward and now know the consequences of being such. He now has the same decision. Help him not to make the wrong one. Show him this note. I will talk to him personally if you want me to. Just let me know and we'll find a way to get in contact.

 

Most sincerely,

Nemo. (kinda hard to sound sincere when you are named after a fish, though.)

[Kay]

Wow, I feel honored to meet the great Nemo. I came to a decision last night, or should I say this morning. He's got till January. He obviously does NOT have me in his heart. I don't know why, but I am beginning to accept it. I do believe he is hiding something and didn't come clean over the Intensive weekend.

 

He is one stubborn dude. There is no way that anything that I say will get him to open up to me. We went out last night, (our 2nd real date since coming back from the Intensive) Wow - Let's just say that it didn't end well.

 

I walked around Disney for about an hour by myself at midnight, and did some serious soul searching. I do NOT want to stay with a man who doesn't have enough love for me to be able to give me what I need. We sat at this table in a Dark Dance Hall like complete strangers. I sat there starving for some kind of show of affection, whether it would be that he held my hand, or rubbed my knee or something. There was nothing. I tried to explain on the way back, why I had tears in my eyes, and he told me that I'm crazy, a complete whako. Then he stormed off.

 

He also reminded me that he will never be the Man that I want. He told me that he has always been like this, even before we dated, and that I knew this when I married him. He will never show signs of affection in public, it is "bad manners ????" A cop out, if you ask me.

I reminded him that he obviously was lonely too during our marriage, or he wouldn't have done what he did. (the affairs) Whatever....

 

I don't need him. I have my kids, my family, my friends, and God. It is just going to have to be enough for me. J & K can try, but I have my doubts that even they won't be able to break open his shell.

 

No apologies this time. The silent treatment is what I got, which is why I'm not sleeping. Oh, but he is....... no difficulty there.

 

Thanks for caring. I appreciate it. Right now, I'm going to enjoy a good cry. and then, I will put on my coat of strength to deal with the rest of our trip.

 

I'm looking forward to meeting with K & J, for myself. I need their strength to get through this.

 

God Loves Me!

Kay

[AB]

Kay,

 

I am so very sorry to hear about last night and what you are going through. I'm sure you were looking forward to actually having a date with him.

 

I came to a decision last night, or should I say this morning. He's got till January.

 

I really think that if you are giving HIM until January you need to prepare yourself during that time to separate from him. Don't put up with this abuse for 6 more weeks and then in January say what do I do now? Live like he isn't going to change and if he does great, if not you are prepared.

 

he told me that I'm crazy, a complete whako. Then he stormed off.

 

hmmm, of course he said that to you.....that is so not the case!....here is a quote from a book I read: "When he makes disparaging references to "her issues", he is completely ignorning the actual reality that your issues are 90% him" You have to know that he is doing this to drive you crazy, to make you feel like YOU did something wrong to cause the argument and the date being ruined. You cannot make him act better towards you by acting differently in how you approach him...but wouldn't he like you to think that!

 

I'm just wondering how much of his behavior was almost intentional.....You guys were going on a date and IF that would have gone well that might have led to sex, he seems to have issues with that so solution to that, make sure the date doesn't go well. Anyway, obviously that is just complete speculation on my part.

 

No apologies this time. The silent treatment is what I got, which is why I'm not sleeping. Oh, but he is....... no difficulty there.

 

With his current mindset, he is not spending time right now digesting the situation and facing what he did.....he is building up a case in his mind against you, to justify his treatment of you.

 

I have been there, so let me tell you what me best friend told me almost every single day for awhile.........You are a child of the King, it is NOT God's plan for your life to be damaged and abused. He has a plan for your and it is a plan to prosper you and NOT to HARM you. (Jer 29:11)

 

Amy

[Kay]

Ab

 

Sex wouldn't happen regardless. We are in a one bedroom suite with our kids.

 

He is trying hard to make me understand that he is NOT going to change, and he wants me to accept it. He is who he is.

 

I am making preparations in my mind. He asked me for 6 months to make it up to me - all the pain he has caused me. Feb. will be 6 months (It is also my littlest birthday that month, and she is going to be crushed.)

I need to wait for her special day to be over. But, after that, I plan on talking to him and letting him know that I want out. I will not file for divorce for awhile, because of our financial situation. We are trying to sell some property to get us out of debt. I will wait for that.

 

It will also give him time to come to terms with the fact that this is for real.

 

I am hurting still, but I am prepared to move on without him if I have to.

God can not possibly want me to be lonely for the rest of my life, that can't possibly of been his plan for me. I can't believe that.

 

Anyway,

Thanks for your advice. I will survive!

Kay

[Kay]

"CRY in front of a man? This only gives him power over you, shows how you are weak and vulnerable and shows him what areas he can hurt you in next. "

 

This was a quote from a different post. IT finally makes sense. He has told me so many times that my crying is a sign of weakness, and that it is totally unattractive. He doesn't want a woman who is weak. I have been crying for months. My crying angers him, and pushes him away.

 

I am beginning to think that he will be happier with me gone too. He can be set free. He can do what he wants, flirt with whoever he wants. Control again. He is as miserable as me.

 

I am a gift from God to him, and for him not to see that is really sad, but this is HIS problem. Unfortunately, our kids are going to be hurt in the process. Can't help feeling guilty about that.

[Jan]

Kay,

I am so sorry you are going through all this. Obviously your husband isn't 'dead' yet. ) Please note, I don't know what a successful restoration looks like. My husband (ex-husband) flunked out of J & K's program and continues to live a divided life. You will have to rely on those that succeeded to give you a picture of what the successful journey looks like and balance out anything I may tell you. But, it looks to me like your husband is behaving just like Joel and Kathy describe Joel behaving before he actually 'got it', in the first book. I agree with the rest, I think there is more going on than you know, no matter what he says. He would not be blaming you, making excuses, trying to weasel out of doing it according to the program, forcing you to hug him when he is telling you the wrong things. I wouldn't buy the bit about where the piece of paper with the incriminating information came from. He wouldn't be bouncing back and forth between saying he doesn't want to follow the program, to wanting to follow it. It looks to me like he is doing just enough to keep you off balance and believing he is changing, without actually dying to himself. You keep throwing the affair in his face and not letting him forget? Poor little baby!!!! Looks like two year old fits to me. I don't believe you would feel so anxious if he really was dying to himself. I think your anxiety is the the consious part of you that wants the dream of the great marriage and whole family for your children, to come true and doesn't want to hear the truth, not listening to the way deep down inside of yourself trying to tell you the truth. I know, I have been there. The kids may appear to be doing better, but if he is just conning and not really doing it, they will know before you do and get very angry.

I hope you are still regularly talking to Joel and Kathy. They will tell you what to look for to know he is truely changing. They will stand on his toes for this stuff. They will be open with you about whether it is 'safe' or not. And as the rest said, pray that deeds done in darkness will be brought to light.

This is not your fault. You are doing nothing wrong. He is initiating and you are responding. You must remember that and not buy into the guilt trips he is laying on you. If he gets it, you will know.

Jan

[Kay]

Jan,

 

I agree with everything you just said to me. I feel that he is hiding something - and I don't believe his "note" story either.

I also don't think that he will ever admit anything that I don't find out about. I agree that he is doing whatever is needed to keep me off balance and to keep me from splitting up the family.

But, little does he know, that I have already accepted that Divorce is probably down the road for us. My children see so much, they will support me in my decission. They, too are angry with him. He will always have a relationship with them, and they will always love him. He is their father, and in so many ways, has been good to them. They know that, and I would never take them away from him.

 

I also think that in many ways, that he will be much happier with me gone from his life. In a way, I think my leaving him will set him free. The pressure will be gone, and he can live the life he wants for himself. He doesn't need me. And, that's okay. I can deal with it. I will survive.

 

I won't live with his "love crumbs"

 

We are seeing Joel and Kathy in a couple of days. This is his last chance.

He either gets with the program or he doesn't. In a way, I feel sorry for him, because I have so much love to give him. He just doesn't want it.

 

One day, he will have to answer to God. And, I hope for his sake, that he repents completely for his sins, and "gets it" He is a good guy, and I will always love him, but I can't live with what he has to offer me, his limitations on love.

 

Maybe that makes me a bad person, or makes me selfish too, but I don't think so. I feel that God is behind me 100% and doesn't want me to be miserable for the rest of my life.

 

This forum has kept me sane. Before, I didn't want him to ever see it, but now, I don't care.... let him read it.... let him see inside my heart.

Funny, but you know ............ I don't even think he'd read it, or let it sink in.... he'd just roll his eyes, believe that I have the problems.

I am the whako. I am the weak one. I am the selfish one.

 

He can think what he wants. I don't care anymore.

 

Kay

[Kay]

With everything that has been going on with us, I'm not sure what to do right now.

 

He apologized to me this morning, and asked if I was still mad at him. (kids were in the room, so no real discussion could really take place)

He hugged me, told me he loves me, etc...

 

Do I ignore this ?? Avoid him anyway and just wait for J & K to take hold of him ?? or...... go back to respondng in a positive way.

 

K & J say to respond to him when he does good, but............. I'm so tired of his "mind games" his "Poor Me" attitude. Of course he wants me to "calm down" I have been staying clear away from him for the past 24 hours. Last night, my parents asked me if I was okay ?

 

He is being Mr. Nice guy AGAIN, how do I respond to this ?? If I follow my heart, it is going to melt and I am going to be putting him right back into control again.

 

Kay

[Kay]

forget my questions, he obviously was not sincere, when apologizing. He's been acting like a CHILD all day, avoiding me as much as possible.

 

I'm waiting for J & K. But, I wouldn't be surprised if he walks off on them too, if they start with him.

 

He is some MOOD !

[leecedar]

I met Joel and Kathy socially, and then found out about their ministry.

 

Kay, it's simple... at least intellectually.

 

Your husband has decided that you are a "property" of his, and have to take everything HIS way. For a man to be a REAL man, he should understand that his wife IS his focus of life, second only to the almighty. She is to be loved, cherished, cared for, nurtured, and let known every single day that she is the greatest thing that ever happened to him.

 

Once he is willing to lay down his life for her, and begins to prove it, then, and only then, is she responsible to respond to him.

 

Here's the question... does your husband want to lay down his life for you? Paul says it in Ephesians... love your wife as you love your own body and as Christ loved the church, even to the point of death.

 

If he can't believe God, and thinks HIS way is better than God's way, then do you really want to live this way for the rest of your life?

 

I'm not too much on being kind and gentle when I counsel my friends... I'm more of a give it to 'em straight, which is why I love Kathy as much as I do, because she's able to do that for me. So, I apologize for not being gentle.

 

I don't see the kind of change of heart that J&K talk about... do you?

[Kay]

Hi Leecedar,

 

My husband lasted less then 6 weeks in J & K school, then he gave up.

 

He can tell me that he loves me, till he's blue in his face, but I feel what I feel. He is selfish, self-centered, and unwilling to lay down his life for me. He is not being a Man of God. He sees my pain, and walks away from it, feels sorry for himself, and acts like he doesn't understand what my problem is. He is no dummy, he just doesn't care enough to do anything about it. The truth hurts, but it is what it is.

 

We see K & J tomorrow. I feel like my entire future is going to depend on our meeting. I have been asking God to give me strength and to help me not to lose it. I plan on giving it to him straight. He either follows their teachings, and gives it 100% or I'm done.

 

The choice will be his. I will find out one way or another just how much he loves me.

 

Please Pray for us!

Kay