2 Timothy 3:14

[J_W]

I agree with Nemo that before you start "spiritually" advising your wounded bride, that you come HERE first -- and we ladies will be glad to tell you DON'T DO IT! This is NOT YOUR PLACE, TP.

 

Agape-loving her does not include you telling her how much you have learned about how you have abused her and now what awesome insights you have ..... your current role should be consistently laying down your life for your bride ---- and this is far different than being willing to lay down your life for her --

 

I did run the fact that I shared this information with B to Joel on the men's call. He cautioned me, like you, on being over zealous. He thought that occasionally, this was ok, but not to go crazy. I do need to modify my sharing with B to only when it is requested.

but, you went ahead and did it anyway

 

It is very possible that B's heart now needs a LOVER apology from you for your superior spirituality that you have spewed all over her -- this is what I think --

 

And you are right, I do need to question myself. I have been withdrawing a bit from helping as much as I used too. I realized a few weeks ago, that I was using the ability to "help" others as a means of personal validation as well as keeping my ego fed. This is wrong and I need to stay on track and refocus my thoughts on healing B's heart.

The focus should be on becoming a Christlike husband, a Christian man -- and this will end up (hopefully) healing your bride's heart -- that is the HOPE, but even if she still ends up turned away from you, you will during this course of dying to self, you will be walking more closely with Him (like you should have been when you were married)...

 

we are HOPING that marriages will be restored -- that is the vision here -- but not at the expense of a wife accepting a husband who is going to abuse her in different ways than before --- SHE is a deeply wounded woman -- she did not wound herself.

 

A GREAT IDEA:

I'll go back and reread Books one and two. If i am straying from the foundations of the ministry, I need to go back and refresh myself with the concepts. Thank you for pointing this out. I have been making sure I have been getting back on the couples calls listening, I did slip from this for a while.

it is wonderful that you are humble enough to do this.... you need to keep these dynamics in your mind if you are going to counsel with other husbands

 

my .02

 

have a blessed weekend,

June of

[For Him For Her]

Timothy,

 

I think the better approach would be to "share" your expirences that relate to something B may be going through. Over the last month of being with my Beautiful, this is how I have been trying to "help" her see things from a different view. I am not trying to teach her anything. I am merely sharing God and Christ with her.

 

God Bless

David

[TimothyPaul]

Wow Guys - this recent topic actually got me seriously disturbed. Not ruffled feathers from your insight, but really questioning myself. I sat after posting last night for about an hour trying to sort this out. I then went to bed and prayed about this, asking God to throw some light into this. I also spoke with Joel about it on the mens call again today.

 

Nemo, June, Dory, David - B asked me for this counsel, twice now. I did not volunteer it.

 

This is NOT YOUR PLACE, TP.

 

If B is feeling "safe" enough to ask me a question looking for spiritual advice, should I not answer it? She has no one in her life to turn to for difficult answers ? She said that to me. That there was no on the same spiritual plane with her. And then would ask me a question looking for a biblical perspective or solution. Our three hour conversation was littered with L.O.V.E.R. apologies. She may have asked me a question on something she was struggling with. I would "listen", offer an apology, validate her feelings, take ownership and responsibility for putting her in this position, offer her encouragment on what she could do under her present circumstance, and trust me I have been repenting on and on....

 

I think the better approach would be to "share" your expirences that relate to something B may be going through

 

This is what I did where something I did would not be applicable to her question. A struggle with the kids perhaps, or her family.

 

That whole email, was based on finding scriptural answers to the issues she was specifically asking me about. And showing her where she could use scriptural guidance to understand her current struggles. Not throwing sciptures in her face about any type of superiority from my perspective.

 

Agape-loving her does not include you telling her how much you have learned about how you have abused her and now what awesome insights you have .....

 

But she was specifically asking why people walk all over her (abuse)? What examples can I use other then the examples of how I abused her nad how she can protect herself from that in the future? Wouldn't someone who Agape loves want to share insight on how the person they love should not have to endure this in the future? I wasn't doing this for me, I was answering her question on how to protect her heart.

 

 

I did run the fact that I shared this information with B to Joel on the men's call. He cautioned me, like you, on being over zealous. He thought that occasionally, this was ok, but not to go crazy. I do need to modify my sharing with B to only when it is requested.

 

but, you went ahead and did it anyway

 

No - I told Joel after the fact, but he did not necessarily think it was wrong. He cautioned to use prudence and not be constantly throwing scriptures out at her, or only when asked, as in this case. He is going to read the thread later and get back to me.

 

 

I don't know guys, I am not using scriptures to point out to B or my kids that I am superior, nor as a critique on how they should live their lives. I remember a gentleman on a men's call that was using the Word to show his wife how her affair was wrong. That is not what I am doing (I hope).

 

I mean, if I am, I really need to revisit the things God and this ministry is showing me, because I am missing something big time. Either that, or I really need to learn how to post clearer so that my intentions are clear.

 

I'll defintely go back to posting my emails here first. But most of this stuff happens in phone conversations with B, not so much as emails.

 

I apologize if this post is coming off as defensive, that is not my intent.

This is just me being very disturbed with myself, (not you all) and vocalizing it. If I am spritually abusing B, I am really dissapointed with myself.

 

 

TP

[Guest Mrs.Clean]

Hey TP,

 

I, too have a difficult time finding Christian friends who are constantly striving to really LIVE for Christ. IF B is looking for a friend, I am available...and local. I know there is a significant age difference (I think, maybe not), but we likely have the same values and love for the Lord.

 

Just a thought.

 

Take Care,

Julie

[Pure in Heart]

B for the moment has (in my interpretation - distorted, arrested development) been drawn away from God and for the moment is looking more at her worldly needs.

 

It is at this point a beautiful mess.

 

In seeing and finally recognizing pain, Timothy, is actually a sign that she is on the road to healing.

 

She is not being drawn away from God but she is actually being drawn closer to Him.

 

As her hurt and pain is coming to the surface the first heart reactions may look like pulling back. Truth is receiving a freedom from captivity, so profoundly deep because the Spirit of God searches the heart.

 

We first have to understand and know what it is that we believe that keeps us at arm's length from God. This is most times a wrong perception and definition of WHO God really is. As the Lord clears away the rubble of wounds and pain then healing can begin.

 

Ecclesiastes says, He wounds and He heals. That wounding is not for her hurt or harm, it is pulling away the familiar thinking and behavior patterns, we have learned along the way. At first, it seems frightening because everything we used to believe is being unearthed and shaken. We then may appear to others as if we cling even more tenaciously to the familiar because it feels safer than the unknown.

 

Love has the power to set the record straight. Love has the power to show forth WHO her loving and adoring Savior is in the midst of that shaking. In our flaws, blemishes and wrinkles we often shrink back thinking we are unlovely. It is when a husband through the power of Christ in him, that can convince her still she is perfectly beautiful and her flaw is as nothing in his eyes.

 

The way she will learn about WHO Christ is, to know the unsearchable riches of His grace and deep, deep love for her, is for YOU to keep pursuing her heart and reaching out to her even in her struggles. You are the clearest picture of WHO Christ Jesus is and what love looks like or behaves like. She BEHOLDS (look and see) love when her husband lives and moves and has his being in Christ.

 

Through you, a mere man, Christ will reveal His love for her.

 

I understand completely that you are reaching out to her to minister His love to her. I think the caution is ONLY that you remain humble at the same time.

 

I pray this makes sense.

 

Kimberly

Edited April 23, 2011 by Pure in Heart

[TimothyPaul]

Thanks Julie

 

- I am not sure if B still reads the forums but it may be best if you were to post something on her thread (pebble by pebble). If I mention the idea, it would look like (and might actually be) manipulation.

 

Thank you. all the support she can get will be a Blessing for her.....TP

[TimothyPaul]

I am moving this topic over here, because I am not sure if Beatrice still reads the threads, and I would not want her to read this.

 

But there are a lot of issues that are disturbing me in regards to what went on.

 

As I mentioned, Beatrice graded her temperament test. She has been struggling with many issues lately and is looking for answers.

 

Now, learning her temperament, two things happened, one I was able to see ways I have abused her which would not have come to light before. There were needs that I was not meeting as a husband for her, that were outside the scope of my knowledge. The other thing, is that because I have been studying this counseling method, there are ways I see I can help her push through some of her problems, that I was also not aware of before.

 

It does not matter if I caused the problems or not, the fact is, they are real problems for her now. So how do I approach those issues to heal her heart. Many of the things that we discuss here on the forums, or on the calls, will not apply to her. Her temperament falls within only 2% of the population. So what may work for 98% of the other women, may not work for Beatrice. This is probably evident by the fact, that most women, in her position may already have opened their hearts to a man that has repented, but Beatrice has not. SHe wants to, but is afraid.

 

The immediate thought that would cross my mind if I were coaching another man, would be Love her as Christ would Love. Be the Christlike Man. But that is not going to be enough for us. She has already admitted that she sees that change.

 

Their is a time and place, where as a ministry, we should be required to understand that as unique individuals, the global philosophies we hold here need to be molded to fit the uniqueness of an individual. WHile there may be limited time on a couples call to get into the nitty gritty of why men respond the way they do. Different men may require a different "touch" to spark them into the right direction. Just as different moderators may have more success with an one individual then another. While the global message does not change "lay your life down for your Wife as Christ did the church". What "laying your life down" means can be totally different for one Wife then another. Because it is what the Wife percieves. For one Wife, acts of service may fill needs of her heart, yet for another, acts of service mean nothing.

 

Now - here is where I am going to push some buttons. And some of you may not like this. Beatrice's temperament requires that the person she is seeking counsel from is intellectual superior, firm and decisive. That does not mean arrogant. BUt that means when she is asking me a question, I need to be very clear and have some very readily available answers. For her to see the counsel as sound, it needs to be directly from the Word of God. And I need to be able to give her chapter and verse. THis has been so prevalent lately, that she has even had me read passages to her, or we have read them together over the phone. This is not spiritual abuse. This is understanding her temperament needs and adapting what we teach here to heal her heart. Which as a ministry should be our goal and as her husband, is my goal.

 

Another need placed in her by God, is the need to be told what to do. She is an excellent decision maker, but lacks the self worth to enact upon those decisions. So again, using the Word, to show her how God Loves her, and that she is capable in His strength to make decisions would not be spiritual abuse. For her to understand that she need not seek advice from the secular world that has been driving her lower and lower, can be enlightening her and set her free.

 

Folks, I have read more books in the past two years and studied more into all of this material then most people would do in a life time. You all should know by now, that I am extremely forthright and when I do not know something, I will ask. I also am not afraid to explore my own inner workings and try to sort out what for me, becoming a Christlike man is. Even if I do not like that the answer may be. I will still go there because there is nothing more important to me then becoming the man God has called me to be.

 

At the same time, the NCCA has taught me that to become the people God has called us to be, we need to be taught how God designed us and how we struggle through our flesh to achieve our needs. And that by satisfying our flesh needs in Godly ways, we can become content. And to that extent, I will adapt what I am learning in this ministry and what I am learning with the NCCA and make sure that even if it means "teaching" Beatrice about herself, then that is what I will do. If that does not work for the ministry, I understand that, and will back off my involvement as a helper. God commands me to heal Beatrice's heart and restore our marriage. Teaching Beatrice how she works is not abuse, it is enlightenment. And if she asks me for this direction, am I to pass her off to some one else? I am her husband, am I not called to be the source of life for her. To say that because I was the abuser, I should shun from this responsibility now is wrong. Because I was the abuser is specifically why I should be focused on meeting her spiritual needs when she looks to me. I can not fathom the ministry viewpoint on this.

 

Since last night, I have been totally devastated. I have been tearing my heart out trying to understand my motivation, (as David is always asking me to question). I have been digging deeper into my soul trying to determine where I was coming from in my communications with Beatrice. Today was the first time in years I had an anxiety attack. This is how deep this question of motivation was tearing me apart.

 

After taking this to God and sorting this out, I know I was acting in Love towards Beatrice. My motivation was totally her well being and her finding the contentment in her life she deserves. I said a few posts ago, I have no question in my heart that I have come to Agape Love Beatrice.

 

 

TimothyPaul

Edited April 28, 2011 by TimothyPaul

[C2]

And to that extent, I will adapt what I am learning in this ministry and what I am learning with the NCCA and make sure that even if it means "teaching" Beatrice about herself, then that is what I will do. If that does not work for the ministry, I understand that, and will back off my involvement as a helper. God commands me to heal Beatrice's heart and restore our marriage. Teaching Beatrice how she works is not abuse, it is enlightenment.

 

Timothy, I think you are treading on dangerous ground here. There is a fine line between working to understand your wife’s temperament which is wonderful. And pointing out areas she needs to change which is dangerous when coming from an abusive or once abusive man.

 

I’m not sure which personality assessment you are referring to but I also fall into one that is only 2% of the population. That’s why general tests like J&K’s personality profile are great for most people but those of us that fall into that 2%, it generally does not apply.

 

My husband is intellectually superior to me in many ways. However, when it comes to relationships, he is not. I think trying to “fix” Beatrice could definitely backfire.

 

It is a good sign that she is working on her own issues. If you have made her safe enough to do that with you, that is good. My opinion is listening to her and helping her process and figure things out for herself is your best tool.

 

If she has spiritual questions, Josh McDowell has some great books on apologetics. If she is questioning the scriptures and wanting concrete answers, good for her. And good for you in helping. Just be careful you do not come across as trying to fix her. Some things she needs to come to conclusions on for herself.

[TimothyPaul]

I agree with you C2, and truthfully, I am not intellectually superior. I certainly don't feel that way. There are somethings I am much better at (ask her how to retrieve an email) but for the most part, she blows me away. She just needs to "feel" that when I am speaking, I know what I am talking about. I should probably rephrase that "intellectually superior" verbage.

 

I do not want to fix her. (I don't think), I just want her to realize that she is more than capable of doing the things that she would like to do, but is afraid to tackle without someone telling her to do them. She always doubts herself and waits for someone to tell her what to do.

 

Case in point, she actually did not want the divorce. She struggled for months with the issue. But then she spoke to her family and friends that told her she should go through with the divorce, and therefore she did. Not because she wanted to, but because she was told she should. Then when her heart started to turn back to me, her family and friends told her she was an idiot. That she was divorced and should just move on with her life and forget about me. So this is what she is trying to do, but it is wreaking havoc inside her. This poor girl has suffered from more depression, anxiety and physical problems in the past year, then I have ever seen her suffer in the 20 years we were married.

 

I am thinking, perhaps it would be good if I shared the way B's and my conversations usually go, and then you guys could critique me and give me better guidance. Also, thank you for letting me throw this behind a protected forum, I would be concerned if B were to read this stuff.

 

Usually, B will call me. For the most part, when I call her it goes to voicemail. Usually, the immediate issue has something to do with the kids. This is her excuse to call me, the kid issue is mostly resolved quickly, because I do not disagree with her on them.

 

Some how she will bring up something that is troubling her....

 

"I can't stand work, I am really getting tired of it..."

 

"What would you rather being doing instead?"

 

"I am not qualified to do anything else. I have no skills, no company would want me."

 

"B, that not true, there are a lot of things you could be doing, your great at a lot of things."

 

"No, I have no skills."

 

"B, I can understand the way you are feeling, but its not true. You have had the rug pulled out from underneath you. You had all the safety and security you need destoyed by me, and that has left you feelings of being totally devalued. After all those years of abuse, how could you feel any different. But that is not who you are. That is the you I created not the you God created. You have the strength to rise above that. God has given you that strength."

 

"yea, right..."

 

" I read something the other day that may speak to your heart on this, can I share it with you?"

 

"Ok"

 

"Do you have your Bible handy or should I just read it?"

 

"Its in the other room, do you mind holding a minute while I get it?"

 

"No, of course not." PAUSE - Usually at this point I am desperately searching for encouraging scripture. I know there is something I have read in the recesses of my memory that will speak to her heart, I just have to find it.

 

"Ok, I'm back"

 

"Turn to page XX on the book of XXXXXX"

 

Then I will read the passage aloud.

 

"well, then if God feels that way, why is my life such as mess (could be subsituted with anxiety, fear, etc)

 

B, do you remember the time when you were suffering from XXXXX, and you determined that you could not live that way anymore. One morning you woke up, realized you weren't happy, and decided to make that change in your life. You have the power to change things. You have already done it successfully, look at how you were able to overcome that obstacle. Draw on that success and now harness it with the power God gives you, and you can do anything....."

 

Pretty much the bulk of the conversation, sometimes we go into more details, but this is the general idea.

 

 

TP

[C2]

TimothyPaul:

 

I like the examples of your conversations. That helps a lot.

 

Wow! You are putting a lot of pressure on yourself to come up with some concrete answers.

 

The best answer to whether or not this is ministering to your wife’s heart is if this kind of exchange leaves her feeling relieved or comforted at the end. Does her anxiety level seem to drop?

 

People are so different. Do you know what B’s personality is with the Briggs Myers? That might help to know.

 

For me, I would be frustrated with the exchange you quoted. Generally speaking, when a woman complains about something like her job, she needs to have her husband listen and understand her pain. Ex.:

 

“I can’t stand work, I am really getting tired of it…”

 

“Did something happen today?” (See you are drawing her out, encouraging her to talk more while you listen.)

 

“Yes, my boss…. Or no, it’s just the same old thing…” (She gets to vent about her day.)

 

“Yea Mr. Bossman can be pretty ruthless. I don’t know why he…”

 

She begins to feel relief because you are taking her side and understanding her frustration. So she vents some more.

 

And you sympathize some more. This draws her out so she vents some more and you sympathize some more until she has processed her entire day and she feels better already. She sees you as her hero. Not because you fixed the problem but because you helped her get rid of the frustration by being on her side and listening and taking up for her AND LETTING HER PROCESS. She really needs to get it out so she can move on with the rest of her day.

 

She may really feel trapped in this job because of her job skills and your trying to talk her out of that may further frustrate her. If she comes to you one day and says, I’m really tired of this job do you think I should look for another job, then you can have that conversation.

 

Does this make sense?

 

I know guys think, doesn’t she just want the problem fixed? Yes, she would like the problem fixed, but short of her being able to quit her job and stay home and be a wife and mother, you are probably not going to be able to fix the problem. She would have an all new set of frustrations at the new job so that would not really fix the problem anyway.

 

So the next best thing is to let her vent and process the feelings and then she will be able to cope with it. And you will be her hero.

 

C2

[J_W]

The FAVORITE POSTS section of the forum is always an encouragement for me to read:

 

an example about "when a wife vents"

Posted 22 January 2011 - 06:47 PM

Our answer below is to the following letter:

Quote

Good morning, I don't know what has happen here, T has completely shut me down, and I am searching for why, my own insecurities are creeping in. I try to remain strong but she has not been like this at all throughout our entire separation, she is being mean in her tone of voice to me, she is being stern, she's being controling of our son, she is being kinda hateful.

 

You said once that in the 4-6 month mark that a woman may find a man who comforts her hurting heart, or a man might think he's done enough and think it's time to move on. Joel I know I haven't done enough, and I know my wife to be as good a christian woman as I would ever find, but do you think she may have found that comforter in another, which gives her the peace she needs now and then I become a bothersome person and she acts like she is? What is happening here, I have felt the hot and cold from her before, this is not it compared to that anyway, this appears to be something else.

 

R

 

 

HI R, She is fine. After being cold, she was on the call, and considering a weekend with you. This is all part of your maturing process. Immaturity reacts to the negative or positive from his wife. "She is in a good mood, I am in a good mood. She is negative, I am sad, depressed, and ready to give up." This is where you grow in maturity. It is good for you when she is cold/warm.

When you are initiating positive actions of love, and staying in a confident faith, regardless of how T is acting toward you, then you are maturing into Christlikeness. Faith is the substance of things hoped for AND the EVIDENCE of things not seen. When you are positive, initiating positive actions and words of love and comfort, regardless of her "mood", then you are acting as if you are a loving and mature husband. This is how faith works in your circumstance. The evidence that you are going to be restored is your confident faith, regardless of her mood. Your GOOD days are when she is expressing her hurt and being cold. When YOU stay positive and initiate positive actions of love, in the face of that, and you do not tell her that she should not be treating you badly, then you are bringing healing to her. (she is cold toward you, or acts badly because of how badly you hurt her in the past. She has the RIGHT to express her feelings. She does not need to put on a fake face and grin and bear her pain in order to enable her immature husband to "feel good" about himself. When a wife does this, she is enabling her "toddler" husband to stay a toddler. So, when she vents, it is GOOD for you! That is your GOOD day! When she is warm and coming toward you, that is great, and you enjoy it, but no progress is made in HER healing. Her warmness is a RESULT of the healing you brought to her the last time that you were positively proactive in the face of her venting at you. The warmness is a chance for you both to relax and enjoy a small taste of the future "fruit" of your labors of becoming Christlike. However, her next time of healing comes when she is making YOU feel miserable, and you are not "reacting" miserably, but you are being positively pro-active toward her. When she is totally healed, the days of misery will be gone. We live there. Life is always a joy in our marriage. We don't "work" at it anymore. It is easy. However, you are loonnngggg from that point. Our job is to help you to keep growing so that you become like Christ. When you are like Christ, you will be amazed at how quickly she is healed. You are operating in faith, when you are calm, confident in your restoration, and living positively toward your wife, as if you are "already there." Faith is the evidence of things not seen. It is the "substance" of things hoped for.

 

Blessings, Joel and Kathy.

 

women seldom want the husband to give her a solution, she wants him to listen and to validate her -- not argue with her, not explain his viewpoint, not defend his position or possibly imply that he is at a better spiritual place in life than she is (especially if they are in an unhealthy marriage/divorced/separated)

 

My recommendation is to seek every opening/opportunity to bless her by listening and validating.... and please don't forget that there are some pretty wise women on this forum, perhaps you could recommend B to read some of their FAVORITE POSTS, too ---

 

blessings and prayers,

June of

Edited April 25, 2011 by June & Ward
typo

[TimothyPaul]

Ok - got it, and I figured out where the problem is...

And thank you for that reminder post June

 

I am having a difficult time discerning the difference between being a blessing to B and being a counselor to B. When I see she is discontent, and I want her to be happy, I switch to "counselor" mode. I think the mentality is, if I can help her sort through some issues, she will be happier.

 

That most likely not the best approach. The way she will find true contentment, is by me continuing to lay my life down for her and becoming a Christlike man, and restoring our marriage. So she can be loved the way God intended her to be. The best way to "counsel" her is to become the man God called me to be, and pour love into her. Not by trying to make her life happy without me.

 

Not that she should not be happy if she chooses the alternative, but that is not my role.

 

God brought us together for one reason, I have to keep that focus.

 

 

TP

[TimothyPaul]

Got it C2, I see exactly what you are saying.... when I read your post, a big "DUH" went through my head.....

 

We never had the BM, but the APS was Mc/M/Supine. The supine is the killer, it really means I have my work cut out for me. While not impossible, it means its going to be an uphill battle. It means I really need to let her vent because she has a lot of anger built up inside of her and is not going to let it out easily.

 

TP

[Looney_Tunes]

OK, Tim, I'm gonna muddy up the works for you just a bit.

 

I would get something out of the exchange you quoted. You see, even though I'm a girl, I'm a fixer. If I come to you with a problem, I really do want your input on how to solve it. Sometimes that means just letting me think out loud - which might look a lot like venting - but using you as a sounding board often helps me come up with a reasonable plan of action. If I tell you I hate my job, I want you to help me come up with a way to get myself out of it. I don't want you to just nod and say you understand.

 

I also don't want clothes and jewelry for my birthday, but I'd love a new chain saw or a good pair of leather reins.

 

The best answer to whether or not this is ministering to your wife’s heart is if this kind of exchange leaves her feeling relieved or comforted at the end. Does her anxiety level seem to drop?

 

Amen, C2. That's the key, Tim - how is Beatrice feeling when the conversation is over? If she's angry and frustrated, you're missing it. If she's honestly feeling better about herself and less anxious, then you've nailed it. If you don't know, ask her.

 

If you are hearing her heart and giving her what she needs from you, then you are being a Christlike man, and there's no need to worry about anyone's buttons.

[PlansForHope]

I echo what Looney & C2 said; the real goal here is to bring healing to your wife's heart; as you keep learning how to become a Christlike man in all your interactions with your beautiful bride! Since you've come here for help working through this issue, take what is helpful to you; don't worry about offending or upsetting anyone; and just keep moving forward in loving and blessing your wife every day; by listening to her heart; giving her a safe place to share and vent to you; keep showing her Christlike love in whatever way SHE needs you to do this!

So thankful for your transparency and willingness to keep learning and sharing with the other men here how to walk out this journey in whatever their particular marriage situation is; God bless you for giving so unselfishly of your time here on the forum; and on the conference calls!

Edited April 25, 2011 by PlansForHope

[C2]

The Supine needs to feel appreciated. She is a thinker but she does not want to be the final decision maker. She is definitely NOT into control. She feels regenerated by FEELING loved and accepted. She probably sees this as a weakness in herself as it seems so hard to get at times.

 

Your biggest success will come when you can reenergize her by loving her just the way she is. Listen a lot. Smile at her a lot. A tender look says, I really like you. You’re smart. You’re cute. You’re captivating.

 

Rejection is her biggest enemy. Any hint of rejection or needing to be changed is going to sap her strength. She is already hard enough on herself. She doesn’t need any help there.

 

These 2% personality types do seem to mystify people but really we are so simple. Just different.

 

That was a great idea to quote your interactions. It’s kind of like role play.

 

It means I really need to let her vent because she has a lot of anger built up inside of her and is not going to let it out easily.

 

Yep. She NEEDS you to do this for her TP. Try different ways of interacting with her and observe which ones energize her and which ones frustrate her. Just look for it on her face and in her voice. It’s right there in front of you but you’ve got to be looking for it.

[C2]

Tim, which temperament are you?

 

C2

[Pure in Heart]

It is not that you want to minister to her it is HOW you are conveying your thoughts that is the alarming the Helpers.

 

There is a difference between listening to her heart, validating her feelings and offering what you may think are solutions to the problem of struggle she is going through.

 

Most men see a problem and want to FIX IT. Women want to talk the problem out and come to an answer on their own. When a husband is telling her what he thinks is the answer, she will feel like she is not being heard.

 

The hurt or struggle often is NOT the main thing. It is HOW she FEELS about what she is experiencing that she wants to talk about. When she knows you care about her pain and that you care enough to be a listener, then she will feel safe to explore solutions.

 

Often men will not truly be listening as she is pouring her heart out and instead of validating her RIGHT to feel doubts, anxiety, worry or fear, a man will give her high sounding platitudes and shallow answers.

 

Learning to listen to her heart and moving beyond what you think her words mean, takes staying in the moment with her and letting her get everything out without critiquing her feelings.

 

A woman's emotional being is WHO she is to her core and when she expresses those emotions out loud and she is met with an easy answer, cliche statements, or being pushed to find an immediate answer, she will actually withdraw as she senses her FEELINGS are being dismissed.

 

If her husband wants to just get on with it and throw solutions at her, (because this is stretching him beyond his immaturity), she will withdraw.

 

This is where learning to validate is cardinal.Her heart is looking for a safe person she can be herself with and talk about everything and anything and still feel secure about herself. That her emotions are valued and are are important to the hearer. This validation makes her feel cared for, understood and loved.

 

Kimberly

Edited April 25, 2011 by Pure in Heart
spelling

[Pure in Heart]

Timothy,

 

 

Though temperaments are helpful in self-discovery they are not the end all of WHO we are and what or who we can become. I think we have to be careful and leave room for God to lead us and give us discernment with people. Yes, temperament analysis may help isolate and identify behavior and categorize certain traits but we can not box God in.

 

Yes, there may be some observable truth in this but human nature and our carnal nature also have something to do with our particular set of sin issues that will show up in our personality. We also do not only wrestle against flesh and blood but powers and principalities (principles that effect and taint our thinking).

 

We all learned certain dysfunctional and unhealthy behavior along the way. Those particular behaviors from our family of origin, the abuse we suffered as children and throughout our early developmental years helped form who we are and cause us to act the way we do. I do not think that a personality test is a catch all for WHO we are as human beings. Though there may be common tendencies that we are able to point out in people, it is a fine line to me of putting a label on that.

 

The greatest influence of change of course, is the presence of the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us into all of God's truth and transforms us all into Christ-likenss. The PERSONality we want to emulate is Christ's, both men and women. We are to express God through our God-given combination of talents, gifts and graces, calling, and personality traits. Some people can make the mistake of thinking some traitthey have is good and to God it is harmful to that child of His. God is the one who defines what truth in His Word and has shown us what virtue and the good is.

 

I am not saying that this is not good, I would only caution not to take it too far or make it a hard and fast rule.

 

I tested completely supine. And though I could see how the test came to that conclusion, there are other behaviors and thinking that I know do not fall within that one category. There are things about myself that are not like Jesus because those fruit of the Spirit are not fully mature or developed in my life. My plumb-line or standard is God's Word, His virtues and His definition of the works of the flesh.

 

There are many fleshy tendencies I have that have nothing to do with being supine and I work to change about myself. I am not saying that one's search for significance can not include self-understanding but God's Word is always more accurate in its assessment of where we are falling short of Christ's image.

 

The Holy Spirit searches the heart of the man to reveal any wicked way in us, regardless of our personality. Our final authority is God's Word and heart on the matter of who we truly are. It is believing and receiving God's love for us that changes everything about us. Even when I may feel confused about what temperament I may fall into. I do not want that to define me but for God to define who I am and declare truth, confessing that over my life. The fact that the Father loves me in spite of my deficiencies is freeing. Also, that in spite of my apparent strengths, I am still dependent upon God and His direction in the use of those very strengths.

 

That being said, I tested supine with a dash of sanguine. I can tell you that the supine is the easiest to win over not the most difficult. She has had no voice all of her life and it appears to me that the unspoken rules of her family and generational stuff in her life has brought fear in, paralyzing fear along with rejection.

 

She is afraid to make a decision because she perceives that as being bad, so her faulty thinking makes the leap to feeling and believing she is unworthy, unloved, and no good. This is, of course a common lie the enemy uses over and over again. Her belief system, not her personality is broken. In her experience, she received punishment for her ideas and feelings being spoken out loud. She learned this was a sure fire way to get set up to be rejected. She couldn't bare it and so it was easier to be all things to all people but at the expense of who she is in God. Fear is always found when one thinks they deserve punishment instead of love.

 

What appears to be indecisiveness or the laid back, go along with everyone supine is actually a spirit of fear. Fear because, if she was ever honest about her feelings she would be punished and rejected. What others label as co-dependency or her personality has nothing to do with God's purpose for her. That was sinful man's forcing their agenda on her (generational curses), thus the enemy at work to take her out.

 

Just because she let others opinions of her matter more than her own is again based in fear of being unloved. She learned to acquiesce to be loved. Even when she appears to be accepting of others there is underneath a righteous anger that injustice has been done to her but no one is listening to her heart cry except God. It does not mean she is co-dependent or a personality type. It is because the enemy wants to shut her up because she probably does have something to say. Her spiritual gifting may even be teaching or the prophetic and the enemy wants to shut her down and keep her in fear. She has a power from God that is kept under the cover of lies she feels she has to believe to be any way accepted and for the fear (she thinks) to stop. She does not know or experienced that God's love (even through a husband) has the power to cast out her fear.

 

The reason I am even saying this, is because if we just box her into a temperament we have just overlooked so much more of the bigger picture going on. Yes, she may have certain traits that line up with being supine but spiritually speaking, this woman has so much natural gifting from God that she has barely even been made aware of. She is a force to be reckoned with and the enemy wants to keep her bound up. She has a voice to speak the heart of God in the Earth to effect change all around her. She is so used to being saddled with others ideas of her and tries and fits who she is into some job when her gifting and calling may be ministerial in nature. This is a woman that God's love will set free to go beyond others limitations of her and her own. The limits are coming off, the measuring line is being put away.

 

I know this may be a simplistic viewpoint but just adding some thoughts to the discussion. I hope and pray that this has not confused the issue at hand.

 

Kimberly

Edited April 26, 2011 by Pure in Heart
typos

[TimothyPaul]

I agree with you Kimberly. And C2 I have to find mine, I can not believe "it has disappeared" (the enemy)! I know in inclusion I was Mc (0,0) we are talking major compulsive. I remember that in affection I scored exceptionally high on receiving love, but had no ability to show love.

 

The thought I have is this, we are born with temperament, "God's design". Then we go out and live life, develop a character which results in a "mask". Usually, because the character and mask are caused by the wounding and rejection we feel in life, we then try to seek to fill the hole in our hearts in unGodly ways. When we can learn what God's design is, we can then choose to work on brining ourselves back into alignment with God's design and find Godly ways to meet our needs, and ultimately then find His true contentment.

 

So to me, the temperament isn't the end all, I view it as the beginning. Now, for me, this has been wonderful. I was able to take what I learned from my APS, use what I am learning and go back and start figuring how to replace all my unGodly acts in ways that would be pleasing to Him. Not quite perfect yet, but so much better then I was a year ago.

 

Now today, I listened to C2. I did not try to fix B. We spoke, it was my call, we had a kid issue to deal with, but I tried to keep her on the phone a bit after we resolved the kid issue. She opened up about some issues at work with a coworker, and I just chilled, and listened. I validated her feelings (they were valid). I did not try to tell her how to deal with the issues, I was just safe ears for her to vent to. I did not point out why "I thought" she was feeling fear. It really doesn't matter what I think.

 

That being said, I tested supine with a dash of sanguine. I can tell you that the supine is the easiest to win over not the most difficult. She has had no voice all of her life and it appears to me that the unspoken rules of her family and generational stuff in her life has brought fear in, paralyzing fear along with rejection.

 

Very encouraging. I figured because of all the "hurt feelings" resulting in anger, it would be very hard for B to get past this and forgive me.

 

Yep. She NEEDS you to do this for her TP. Try different ways of interacting with her and observe which ones energize her and which ones frustrate her. Just look for it on her face and in her voice. It’s right there in front of you but you’ve got to be looking for it.

 

Yikes - so hard over a phone! She refuses to see me in person. If she drops the kids off, she is gone in a flash before I can even get out the door. Which tells me how much she is hurting. She won't even come and say hello to her precious favorite dog, Boo (left on my moniker). I mean that is big, we had more difficult issues over "dog" custody then the kids.

 

Amen, C2. That's the key, Tim - how is Beatrice feeling when the conversation is over? If she's angry and frustrated, you're missing it. If she's honestly feeling better about herself and less anxious, then you've nailed it

 

Again, its hard to tell. But I think after the three hour conversation, she did feel better. Today I am not sure. I really think it depends. Honestly "my filters" are telling me I am helping, but then again, I have been at this for a while and we are further apart now, then ever. But I can learn from David on this. Just stay steady and keep focused.

 

I was sharing a process that occurred to me this weekend on the mens call today.

 

I was told that when you are at sea and you start feeling seasick to fix your eyes on a something fixed on the horizon. I imagine myself in a boat amongst the worst storm. The fixed object is the Cross. Way in the distance, with those sun rays we see at dusk radiating onto it. So while I may feel every once in a while amongst that incredible storm, if I keep my eyes fixed on the Cross, I know Jesus calmed the storm, all will be well. Thats going to be the Album cover for the new CD is started on this week....

 

TP

Edited April 26, 2011 by TimothyPaul

[MaryJane]

She opened up about some issues at work with a coworker, and I just chilled, and listened. I validated her feelings (they were valid). I did not try to tell her how to deal with the issues, I was just safe ears for her to vent to. I did not point out why "I thought" she was feeling fear. It really doesn't matter what I think.

I like this, a LOT!

 

All those things you DIDN'T do, above, feel like so much pressure to a wife. At least they do to me.

 

Based on me, I think all we women want, in conversation, is a bit of sympathy/empathy/validation from our husband. I'm pretty sure you could call it the "giving honour unto the wife" of I Peter 3:7 -- the side-effect of which is, it helps un-hinder a man's prayers!

[Chrysallis]

I thought you sounded pompous and off putting in the long email. I know had I received same from my H, it would have been a major turn off. Like, who does he think he is? The email seems to me to be like an attempt to impress B with your intellect or something, it is not comforting, helpful or warm.

 

If you had just said yeah, that's hard. Maybe you can pray for God to bring you a spiritual friend, that would have been better.

[Chrysallis]

 

 

Again, balance. Its okay to help others and be there for others, but not at the expense of my family. Before it was putting clients and business before the family. Have I just replaced the clients now with assisting in the ministry? If so, my motivation is still wrong, because that still makes it all about me and getting my validation.

 

 

TP

 

Yeah TP, when Jesus said "Feed the hungry and clothe the naked" I figure he meant my own children. They are always hungry and always need clean clothes. For a husband, it means your wife. If your own children and wife are not taken care of, you have no business helping anyone else.

 

"Helping B with her struggles" that were exacerbated by you does not really include preaching to her. Practicalities are very important to women. Does she need money? Can you send a pizza dinner over?

[TimothyPaul]

Hi Chrysallis,

 

Sorry for the delay in response, I was waiting for a moderator to merge the threads...

 

Yes - I could send over a pizza, but I think B would refuse it right now. I have offered to help in whatever ways I can, and she has respectfully declined any offers. I feel bad, her computer has been acting up, and she is suffering through it, even though I have offered to fix it several times. And thats what I do for a living....

 

She was adamant about me not giving her anything for Mother's Day. No card, nothing. I had already gotten something for her, so I will hold onto until next year.

 

I did apologize for any spiritual abuse I may have subjected her to. B said she didn't feel that I had spiritually abused her, so I guess that is a good thing.

 

Right now, we seem to be stuck in "fact conversation".

 

Fact communication consists only of the objective discussion of facts, gossiping, or data analysis. It holds at arm’s length. (“Last night the weatherman said we’d have more rain today.”)

 

Just one step above the "cliche" conversation.... many steps below any thing significant. BUt at least that is better then no conversation.

 

Anyway, they just called 5, so shows about to start...

 

 

TP

[Chrysallis]

for Mother's Day could you write her a letter telling her that her making you a father was the second best thing that ever happened to you?