Where do I go from here?

[Forrest Gump]

This is my first post. I have read Joel and Kathy's first book and working through the second now. I agree with all that I have read an am distressed over the wrong things we have been taught. Thanks for the truth.

My story is long and complicated. Married 21 years to a woman that I have always considered my best friend. I have been through hell over the last 2 years. I was blindsided 3 weeks before my oldest daughter's wedding when I found out my wife was planning to leave me. She had had enough. My attitude had gone bad for a few years. Several failures in business attempts and freelance work that was inconsistent left us constantly struggling. She was just sick of it. I don't blame her. We have both been doing what we thought we were supposed to do since becoming Christians in 1990. She was the supportive and forgiving wife. I was the ambitious young guy who ran every rabbit trail and did everything our church leadership asked.

I am fully aware of how stupid I am. I know, now, what my wife endured for the last 21 years. I understand how my very early exposure to porn affected my relationship with my wife. I know how easily distracted I have been and how I have neglected her for the "urgent" things that come up constantly.

She is still with me. I have wasted some time in counselling. (nobody else seems to understand all this stuff) I am on anti-depressants and medication for ADHD to help me be less stupid. She seems to be waiting for something. She has told me to give up a few times but I can't. She's my best friend. She's the most important person in my life. I will do anything to fix this. She will not read anything I bring home and doesn't want to discuss the "relationship." We have good days and bad days. Days when I feel like we are making progress and healing, and days like today; when I honestly want to die. I know I have hurt her. I have apologised and am working daily to make thing right. I am following the directions from the books and reading as many posts on here as I can.

I guess I am asking for prayer and advice. I want to win her back. I want to be the man I am supposed to be. I want to spend the rest of my life repairing the damage. But, my spirit is so crushed right now.

She is the only person in my life, except for my kids, who has ever loved me just as I am. Even my parents were cold toward me and treated me like I was just in their way. She has been the best thing to ever happen to me. I can't lose her.

This has been going on for almost 2 years. We seem to heal and move forward, then we are back to cold and distant. I am miserable. How do I fix me from here and win her back?

[rejoicein]

Welcome to the forum.

First thing for you to do is take a deep breath. You still have a lot of learning to be able to bring healing to your wife for the 21 years of abuse.

You need to contact joel and get signed up for the mens calls. They will be a huge help for you.

If you will let us we can help you win your wifes heart back.

Now stop feeling sorry for yourself. It makes your wife sick and does not help you to grow up.

 

You can do this

steve

[J_W]

Posted 31 August 2008 - 03:03 PM

Psalm 90:15, 16, 17 (New Living Translation)

 

Give us gladness in proportion to our former misery! *1

Replace the evil years with good. *2

Let us see your miracles again; *3

let our children see your glory at work. *4

And may the Lord our God show us His approval *5

and make our efforts successful.

Yes, make our efforts successful! *6

 

This is our goal:

 

1. To help couples find gladness in proportion to their current and former misery! Marriage is designed by God to be greatest source of happiness, joy and contentment in this earth realm, second only to our relationship with Him and the joy of our salvation. Marriage is meant to make you holy, yes, AND happy! Outrageously happy! *1

 

2. To enable a couple to get into the position where God can replace the evil years with GREAT years! *2

 

3. To help a couple see God's miracles in their life: *3

A. The miracle of transformation in character and a restored marriage.

B. The miracle of restoration for all children and others who have been harmed by the marriage dysfunctions. *4

 

4. To let children experience what it is like to have God's glory and favor in their home because their parents are so wonderfully in love and outrageously happily married. This brings healing to the wounds that the children have been subjected to through the years of marriage misery in the home. *4

 

5. To get God's favor on every home that receives this message. A great marriage ATTRACTS God's favor and Glory. A great marriage IS the greatest representation of the Glory of God in the earth. *5

 

6. We pray that our efforts, and the efforts of our helpers in this forum will be successful. *6

 

7. We pray that your efforts at entering into an outrageously happy marriage will be successful. *6

 

In order to accomplish these purposes, you have come to the correct ministry/forum/website! Avail yourselves of our books, DVD set, group phone mentoring and Weekend Marriage Intensive!

 

Where do you start?

 

Start with this forum, and also read our website at www.GodSaveMyMarriage.com

 

Order our two books, The Man of Her Dreams/The Woman of His! volumes one and two. (Volume two is titled, "Livin' it and Lovin' it!" Book one has the red cover. Book two shows Joel and Kathy walking on a beach.) The two books in paperback total $32 plus s and h.

 

The two books also come in audio book if preferred. $35 and $55 respectively for the Four and Seven audio CD books - both read personally by Joel and Kathy

 

 

Order the eight hour DVD set that was recorded in Bradenton, Florida.

 

If you feel like you need immediate intervention, to kick-start your miracle, then register for the Weekend Marriage Intensive by calling us at 386-206-3128. For details, go to the Itinerary page at our website.

 

You have found the right ministry to help YOU go from misery and hell on earth, to an outrageously happy marriage! - HEAVEN on earth!

 

This is the place. The time is NOW. For such a time as this.

Love and Blessings!

 

 

Joel of Joel and Kathy

 

It is very very important that you read the J&K books, The Man of Her Dreams / The Woman of His and Livin' It and Lovin' It -- www.JoelandKathy.com to order

(I also highly recommend Paul Hegstrom's book, Angry Men and the Women Who Love Them (also can be ordered on J&K's link)

 

there is a link to read 120 page excerpt for FREE on the PLEASE OPEN THIS SECTION FIRST

http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/forum/24-please-open-this-section-first/

PLEASE read every segment, view every video, listen to every call on the entire section -- it will take 4-6 hours -- but extremely important.

 

It is time to focus on your wife's feelings and HER woundings -- not yours. You have focused on self too much for years and that is why you are in this condition. THIS ministry is a fork in the road... and what you do to re-learn how to become a Christlike husband will make all the difference.

 

Draw close to Him, be gentle and loving to your bride -- never ever defend yourself or interrupt her -- LISTEN to her -- do the above, and be teachable.

 

It is vital that you go through the abuse/power/control questionaire (found in the above threads) answering it as honestly as you can. If your wife is willing to do so AND FEELS SAFE, ask her to also go through it and answer it about how you have treated her during your marriage. DO NOT ARGUE with her or get angry with her about it either. SHE is your mirror. The Lord designed her to be that way. That IS part of the marvelous mystery of marriage, because it depicts the agape love of the Bridegroom (Jesus) towards His bride (the church).

 

How awesome that you have this opportunity to be a blessing to a precious daughter of the King of Kings. WOW!

 

You can do this.

 

prayerfully,

June of

[Chrysallis]

Doe he have a number to call for the men's calls and to talk to Joel? This getting the number was hard for me when I joined............

[J_W]

Doe he have a number to call for the men's calls and to talk to Joel? This getting the number was hard for me when I joined............

 

the phone number is posted above

[Chrysallis]

Welll maybe that is why it was hard for me, I didn't see it when it was right in front of me.........lol.You sure it's posted? I still don't see it.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Chrysallis

[Forrest Gump]

Welcome to the forum.

First thing for you to do is take a deep breath. You still have a lot of learning to be able to bring healing to your wife for the 21 years of abuse.

You need to contact joel and get signed up for the mens calls. They will be a huge help for you.

If you will let us we can help you win your wifes heart back.

Now stop feeling sorry for yourself. It makes your wife sick and does not help you to grow up.

 

You can do this

steve

 

 

Thanks for the response. Yeah. Just finished the second book, halfway through the DVDs now. I didn't really see how pathetic I look until this week. I know I have to stay positive and focus on her needs and my growth. You guys know where I am. Very hard to be positive but she didn't fall in love with a whiny nut case to start with, ain't going to work now either. We have some days that are manic when I see hope and days like today when it is hard to even breathe. I want to do this right. I even told her she was wise to take her time and not rush back to me. Been sleeping in the basement for about three months. Better than the sofa but not much. I asked her to at least read chapter 19 in book 2, she took it to bed last night, not sure if she read it or not. As far as I can tell, I am doing most of the right things as I learn them. I have been severely humbled and teachable over the last year. Really looking for more encouragement and direction now. We are slowly becoming friends again. Some physical contact, but completely on her terms. Trying to let her initiate most contact. The rejection is hard on me when she pulls away or says no and it aggravates her. She admitted being molested and abused by a stepfather when I asked her. I have made some bad mistakes with her and now she sees him when she looks at me. How do I help her heal from that?

[jenisy]

Thanks for the response. Yeah. Just finished the second book, halfway through the DVDs now. I didn't really see how pathetic I look until this week. I know I have to stay positive and focus on her needs and my growth. You guys know where I am.

Very hard to be positive but she didn't fall in love with a whiny nut case to start with, ain't going to work now either. We have some days that are manic when I see hope and days like today when it is hard to even breathe. I want to do this right. I even told her she was wise to take her time and not rush back to me. Been sleeping in the basement for about three months. Better than the sofa but not much. I asked her to at least read chapter 19 in book 2, she took it to bed last night, not sure if she read it or not. As far as I can tell, I am doing most of the right things as I learn them. I have been severely humbled and teachable over the last year. Really looking for more encouragement and direction now. We are slowly becoming friends again. Some physical contact, but completely on her terms. Trying to let her initiate most contact.

This is full of pride in reverse. Many men in the ministry are of either 2 extremes.. one is that they aren't the problem and it is all his wife's fault or two, (what i see in you) about how bad and awful you are. Neither extreme is healthy and both are pride. Ether the i am so great or I am so terrible. Neither of these is a healthy mind or heart set to function in and either one is still selfishness because you are focusing on yourself rather then your bride. Right now is the season to stop focusing on yourself and focus on your bride, the Lord and restoring your marriage.

 

We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Please remember God sees not just our actions but our hearts. It is easy to have our perspectives distorted.. Please read the word and remind your self of God's promises, his character and what this means for you. Remember if we are willing and seek him, he will restore us the way he originally planned before the enemy had his way with us. On your own strength you will fail, but you have the most powerful and loving God to provide you everything you need to become a Christlike man and this ministry is a great tool. God sees you, he loves you and his grace and mercy are new every morning. Yes, you need to learn Godly repentance and turn away from sin and selfishness, but you also need to deal with the lies you have been believing about God and yourself. replace these lies of rejection and what not with the truth that you are a son of God, accepted.

The rejection is hard on me when she pulls away or says no and it aggravates her.

This is what we call mother son issues. When you feel rejected or even the threat of rejection it creates a strong reaction in you that your wife can pick up on. You need to deal with these feelings by crying out to the lord and on the men's calls. Do not address your fears and feelings with you wife right now. This is a season of helping you walk out of your arrested development. The only way to successfully do this for a man is to lay his life down for his bride as Christ did the church, live in understanding with her and die to self. This doesn't mean you aren't allowed to feel, it means you go to your source, our Father God and other men in this ministry to help you walk out of this.

She admitted being molested and abused by a stepfather when I asked her.

Her past baggage actaully is not the issue here. You have an amazing opportunity to bring healing to your wife in this area by standing in the gap. When a wife feels loved and cherished she will blossom and no pain from her past will be recalled..however, when she feels unloved, devalued and insecure she is like a plate of spaghetti. every wound is tied to the next and it goes very deep. She will recall the pain from what you have done not just from today, but the last 21 years of times you have hurt her,as well as, reminds her of what someone else did to hurt her in her past. this is why she is giving up. If there is anyway you could get her to just talk to Kathy, i believe she could get some amazing support and encouragement.I have made some bad mistakes with her and now she sees him when she looks at me. How do I help her heal from that?

Please start saving up for an intensive, trust god for the resources and that he will work in your wives heart as you show her you are becoming a real Christlike husband. Get on the conference calls, men's calls and stay plugged in on the forums. You can do this. We are all here to support you, encourage you and share the truth we have learned by walking this out. God bless you and your wife. Be encouraged.

 

This is something my husband recently wrote:

Resenting and resisting meeting my wife’s needs is a result of mother son issues.

Want to avoid hard work, get away from pain, resist emotional needs, resist bonding. I look for the nearest exit and end up moving away from her.

The answer to this is to move toward her instead. connect with her pain. Move toward the wounds.

 

Do not move away from her, always move toward Chontel. This is the answer. It is simple and it works.

Meet her needs. Apologize right away, validate. Don’t resist, move toward her and not away. This will help you overcome the mother son issues. Put the resistance to death. It will help me to become mature, masculine and growing into christlikeness. It may feel frustrating, like the feelings will never go away, but the more you move toward her and push through the feelings the faster the mother son issues will go away.

Apologize quickly. Whenever resentment or bad attitude comes up apologize right away.

She doesn’t want to punish me for my mistakes or keep living in the past. She wants me to see what I do wrong and connect with her emotionally.

 

Here are some encouraging scriptures:

“Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God” (Psalm 42:5).

 

“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones” (Proverbs 3:5-.

 

“…the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:26-28).

 

“And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:19).

 

“I can do everything through him who gives me strength” (Philippians 4:13).

 

“…put your hope in the LORD both now and forevermore.” (Psalm 131:1)

 

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Edited July 7, 2011 by jenisy

[J_W]

Jenisy is correct!

 

besides reading/listening to/viewing the LINKS I SENT to you above, please re-read chapter 3 of Livin' It and Lovin' It.

 

and focus on blessing her --

 

when you get finished with the above reading, then please go to the "apology" link -- this is very important... which is IN this section of the forum:

http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/forum/5-ministry-to-men-who-are-working-to-win-their-wifes-heart-back/

 

Chapter 14 of Livin' It gives a sample of a another clueless husband's list of 98 different ways he had hurt his bride... you need to make a list, too. Joel told Ward to do this and it helped a lot

 

 

prayerfully,

June of

[Forrest Gump]

Thanks guys. I actually did the apology letter 2 weeks ago, had 100. May have to do a second one. She appreciated it. Our biggest problem mixed her early abuse with my porn problem. (which I let go of over a month ago) I had made the classic mistake of pulling stuff from the porn into our bedroom. Had no idea that it was the same thing she experienced with the stepfather. I really blew it. I have apologised and asked for her forgiveness. Prior to that, she had made up her mind to leave because of my horrible attitude and anger. I also discovered how deep my control and manipulation issues were. I consider myself blessed that she will even talk to me but want the OHM you guys talk about. Honestly hard to even imagine that. I want the darkness in me exposed and both of us healed.

[TimothyPaul]

Grimstone,

 

You should post your apology letter here to let the helpers review and guide you. They will be able to dissect it and offer you counsel. It would be fine to do another another one, just get the needed enlightening on the first one.

 

Our biggest problem mixed her early abuse with my porn problem.

 

I would be cautious in how your mind may be thinking. It wasn't "our" problem, it was "your" problem. By using the word "our" you are not taking responsibility for your sin. You are trying to blame shift. If you own responsibility, you can work on bringing healing. Also, by thinking it is a mutual problem, you are casting your sin onto your wife. This could potentially result in guilt feelings for her.

 

The whole situation you mention, was never her fault at all. She had one abusive man, her stepfather, and replaced him with another abusive man, you. You are required to heal the wounds of yourself as well as her stepfather. That may seem monumental at the moment, but in reality its not. Just learning to agape love your wife and lay your life down for her will be the solution.

 

I see this has already been addressed twice in your thread, take some time to reflect on your mental attitude. Make sure you are getting the attitude aligned.

 

TP

[Forrest Gump]

Grimstone,

 

You should post your apology letter here to let the helpers review and guide you. They will be able to dissect it and offer you counsel. It would be fine to do another another one, just get the needed enlightening on the first one.

 

 

 

I would be cautious in how your mind may be thinking. It wasn't "our" problem, it was "your" problem. By using the word "our" you are not taking responsibility for your sin. You are trying to blame shift. If you own responsibility, you can work on bringing healing. Also, by thinking it is a mutual problem, you are casting your sin onto your wife. This could potentially result in guilt feelings for her.

 

The whole situation you mention, was never her fault at all. She had one abusive man, her stepfather, and replaced him with another abusive man, you. You are required to heal the wounds of yourself as well as her stepfather. That may seem monumental at the moment, but in reality its not. Just learning to agape love your wife and lay your life down for her will be the solution.

 

I see this has already been addressed twice in your thread, take some time to reflect on your mental attitude. Make sure you are getting the attitude aligned.

 

TP

 

 

 

Wow. Never expected this much response. I am going to attempt to respond to each thing, mainly the phrase "our biggest problem." Just to be clear, I am not blaming her for anything. I completely understand that part. Been praying about this a lot and trying to understand it. What finally clicked is the verse about loving your wife a Christ loved the church. Well, I started really thinking about how he loves us. The biggest thing was His taking the weight of sin to set us free. He accepted full responsibility for everything done by every person and did what had to be done to fix it. The only way this gets fixed, is for me to accept full responsibility for my actions as well as all the byproducts of those actions. Whatever issues she has are ultimately my fault for not loving her right and working her healing from day one. When I say "our" all I meant was, this is the single biggest obstacle in our healing. I think we are making progress in so many areas and we really are becoming friends again. But, I hurt her so bad in this one area, adding to hurt she already had from the stepfather, that it has become THE problem. I have read the books, still working on the DVDs, she has started reading, too. She even feels that I am finally on the right track and seems positive most days. But, this one area is where I dug a hole so deep I don't know how to get out. She needs healing and I need to know how to make this right for her.

 

The apology letter. Sure Here it is. Took the names out and cleaned up a few words.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I love you very much. I wanted to talk to you tonight, but maybe this is better anyway.

 

I know that there is still a good chance that we will not get through this together. Whether we do, or not; I still have to fix me. I have to become the man God planned for me to be. I intend to take every opportunity to grow and do good. I am also prepared to spend the rest of my life making things better for you and trying to make things right. You told me that you felt “earning forgiveness” was wrong. What I have to earn is respect. There is no reason for you to respect me after the way I have lived and the decisions I have made, I don't expect it. Earning respect takes time and effort, I am ok with that. I think, for a start, I need to apologize for the ways I have failed you..

 

1.I am sorry for not spending more time trying to understand and know you.

2.I am sorry for treating you as anything less than my best friend.

3.I am sorry for allowing porn to influence my attitudes and desires.

4.I am sorry for forcing sex on you the way I did that night.

5.I am sorry for making sex uncomfortable for you.

6.I am sorry for treating you like a piece of meat.

7.I am sorry for always wanting more and not being thankful.

8.I am sorry for not working consistently and providing better for you.

9.I am sorry for giving myself to work and church more than to you.

10.I am sorry for chasing dreams and neglecting you, my “dream come true.”

11.I am sorry for getting you pregnant before we were married.

12.I am sorry for not keeping my virginity for you.

13.I am sorry for pulling us back to Georgia and leaving Arizona without really talking to you about it first.

14.I am sorry for making you live in trailers.

15.I am sorry for not buying you nicer things and clothes, even when we could.

16.I am sorry for getting fat.

17.I am sorry for smoking again.

18.I am sorry for not being concerned about my appearance.

19.I am sorry for spending so much time in the studio and out of town.

20.I am sorry for not finding out how you feel about every decision I make.

21.I am sorry for not reading these marriage books sooner.

22.I am sorry for waiting until things are a crisis before fixing them.

23.I am sorry for thinking I can fix everything.

24.I am sorry for buying all those awful minivans... then making you drive them.

25.I am sorry for not being more sensitive to your needs and feelings.

26.I am sorry for being a jerk.

27.I am sorry for leaving messes around the house.

28.I am sorry for leaving unfinished projects.

29.I am sorry for not fixing things the first time you asked.

30.I am sorry for not fixing things at all.

31.I am sorry for fixing the wrong things.

32.I am sorry for not being fun.

33.I am sorry for not dancing with you on New Years.

34.I am sorry for a crappy start to our marriage and no honeymoon. (Pizza Hut, Piggly Wiggly and a ghetto trailer after the wedding... what kind of jerk does that?)

35.I am sorry for blowing the engine in your El Camino.

36.I am sorry for being angry for so long.

37.I am sorry for not teaching you to ride sooner.

38.I am sorry for not finishing your bike yet.

39.I am sorry for not finishing your car yet.

40.I am sorry for not finishing the house yet.

41.I am sorry for not finishing the taxes yet. (nope, still not done)

42.I am sorry for cooking like my mom.

43.I am sorry for watching other women.

44.I am sorry for flirting, not cheating or touching, but flirting.

45.I am sorry for not being completely supportive of your dreams.

46.I am sorry for having a hairy back.

47.I am sorry for not taking vacations enough.

48.I am sorry for the pile of papers and crap around this computer.

49.I am sorry for spending so many nights keeping you awake while I worked on one stupid project after another.

50.I am sorry for letting the power get turned off... and the water... and the phones

51.I am sorry for never getting cable and missing games.

52.I am sorry for never actually taking you to a game.

53.I am sorry for just being stupid.

54.I am sorry for not working on the yard when you wanted me to.

55.I am sorry for buying crappy lawnmowers.

56.I am sorry for not listening to every word you say and really hearing you.

57.I am sorry for not giving you enough respect.

58.I am sorry for messing with your facebook stuff and freaking out.

59.I am sorry for being controlling.

60.I am sorry for being abusive.

61.I am sorry for being jealous.

62.I am sorry for taking the kids away that night they were supposed to go to your friend's house.

63.I am sorry for arguing with you.

64.I am sorry for being rude and obnoxious.

65.I am sorry for snoring.

66.I am sorry for making you sleep in that dump hotel.

67.I am sorry for being rude to your friends.

68.I am sorry for not being the man you needed me to be.

69.I am sorry for telling you that any of this was your fault.

70.I am sorry for not stepping up and making the hard choices.

71.I am sorry for quitting good jobs.

72.I am sorry for wasting money on stupid stuff.

73.I am sorry for getting you pregnant 2 years ago.

74.I am sorry for not getting that house in Arrowhead.

75.I am sorry for making you earn money to pay bills.

76.I am sorry for not learning to dance.

77.I am sorry for not trusting you.

78.I am sorry for not asking your advice on big decisions.

79.I am sorry for throwing things when I got angry.

80.I am sorry for yelling at you and the kids.

81.I am sorry for not treating you like my queen.

82.I am sorry for spending time on things that were not important when I could have been with you.

83.I am sorry for not taking you out enough.

84.I am sorry for yanking you off the sofa in Arizona. (also sorry for the minor a__-kicking I received as a result)

85.I am sorry for leaving you home to raise the kids.

86.I am sorry for not making you my highest priority.

87.I am sorry for all that crap in the basement and garage and backyard.

88.I am sorry for being selfish.

89.I am sorry for being cheap.

90.I am sorry for interrupting you when you talk.

91.I am sorry for making everything about me.

92.I am sorry for not praying with you and for you.

93.I am sorry for not praying with the kids.

94.I am sorry for saying “I love you” just to get you to say it.

95.I am sorry for saying “I love you” and not living it.

96.I am sorry for making the last few years so hard for you.

97.I am sorry for pushing you to the point where you hurt this bad.

98.I am sorry for making you feel like divorce was the best option.

99.I am sorry for the pressure you are under because of me.

100.I am sorry for all the other stupid things I have done and all the important stuff I didn't do. You deserve so much better than I have done for you. You are a wonderful person. I love you and respect you more now than ever before. Thank you for being strong and taking a stand when you did. You saved me from me.

I am praying everyday that we can survive this and come out stronger and happier and deeper in love than ever before. But, even if it doesn't happen that way, I still love you and want to do all I can to make life better for you.

 

 

I love you,

 

Your humbled and less stupid husband,

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Ok, Next question. What do you mean by "mother/son" issues? I could type for hours about my relationship with my mother and what I grew up with. It is miraculous that I can function in society at all. I love her but had to come to the place where I love her because she is my mom and I choose to love her. Not because she has any idea how to love me or ever did. Just want to know exactly what you mean by that.

 

Pride in reverse. Never heard that one before. Am I down on myself? Yep. Do I have a logical reason? Yep. I almost lost the best thing that ever happened to me, after 21 years of not doing right for her. After learning, and understanding, what Joel and Kathy are teaching it feels like I just uncovered a conspiracy. I see my grandparents, my parents, us, my brother's family, my friends, my daughter who is now looking at divorce and realize they were all taught the crap in church that we were. Somebody poisoned the waterhole! In a lot of ways, we were better off before we got saved, as a couple. We did stuff together, we spent our evenings doing whatever we wanted, we slept late on Sunday and just had fun. Somewhere in there, I was taught to "follow your leader" and ended up like a puppet going wherever I was told. I feel like I have wasted the last 18 years on things that almost destroyed my life... and I was clean and sober for all those!

 

Heal the wounds. If I cut myself, I get the antibiotic ointment and a band-aid, done. Give me the prescription I need to do right. Assume that I have absolutely no idea what to do. Someone feel free to play doctor and offer specific advice on how to help her heal.

"I treated her like a sex toy, adding incredible pain to what she had been carrying since 7 years old. I forced her to have sex with me when she was already hurt from years of neglect. I also, like an idiot, got upset because she didn't enjoy it and left to sleep at a hotel; leaving her alone to sort out what happened." That is as specific as I am going to get.

I kinda snapped after I found out she was going to leave me. There was about 2 weeks in there when I made one bad decision after another. Just couldn't think. That bad night happened and I picked up cigarettes again after 19 years clean.

So, what would be a specific way to bring healing to her after all that, I really need to know.

 

And, after sharing what I am learning with my dad and stepmother, they are offering to cover a marriage intensive. As of yesterday, we are making plans to attend. My wife has agreed to go and alreay gotten approved for time off work. Just a few loose ends and it is done. I have spent 2 years looking for a "counsellor" who really understood. I have learned more truth in 2 months with Joel and Kathy's ministry than 20 years of church services, events and conferences. Thank you, all of you. Feel free to take my letters apart and help me become a good husband.

[J_W]

HOORAY on getting to a Marriage Intensive ASAP! wow -- this will be life-changing -- you are one blessed man whose wife is willing to attend an Intensive with her (abuser)husband...(I don't mean this in the way to further bat you down, but rather to say -- "Isn't she a blessing to you? to still be willing to open to making your marriage work?")

 

The list of hurts is good -- the apology needs to be re-vamped a bit due to the use of so many "I"s.

 

So, please re-read the apology link:

http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/244-great-verbal-apology-written-apology-is-also-here/

if the link does not automatically open use the address between the " "

"http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/244-great-verbal-apology-written-apology-is-also-here/"

 

This entire paragraph needs to be re-done and much of it removed:

I know that there is still a good chance that we will not get through this together. DELETE DELETE DELETE ---

Whether we do, or not; I still have to fix me. I have to become the man God planned for me to be. I intend to take every opportunity to grow and do good. I am also prepared to spend the rest of my life making things better for you and trying to make things right. You told me that you felt “earning forgiveness” was wrong. What I have to earn is respect. There is no reason for you to respect me after the way I have lived and the decisions I have made, I don't expect it. Earning respect takes time and effort, I am ok with that. I think, for a start, I need to apologize for the ways I have failed you..

 

I think you will understand WHY this should be removed AFTER you have finished reading the entire apology thread.

 

God has given you this wonderful opportunity to bring healing to one of His precious daughters, a lovely lady whom you have hurt, but yet who needs you to be her hero, her caregiver and pursuer of love. The Lord has chosen YOU to do this, so this means that HE has put the ability to DO this. Now that you have made the "choice" to DO this, keep trusting Him for step by step.

 

 

Blessings to you == AND YAYYYYYYYYY, you are going to an Intensive! ::clap ::clap

 

June of

[J_W]

Weekend Marriage Intensives

in Palm Coast/Daytona Beach,

Florida with Joel and Kathy:

July 13-17, 2011

August 24-28, 2011

Call to RSVP Now!

386-206-3128

 

http://www.joelandkathy.com/index2.htm

[TimothyPaul]

Hey Grimstone,

 

I know you are going to back and check the posts June has left for you, but the one thing I notice you are missing.

 

Your acknowledging the mistake and apologizing, but I don't see where you are thinking about the actual pain you caused and validating this to her. It really will help if you can dig into the pain you caused her.

 

i.e. - 3.I am sorry for allowing porn to influence my attitudes and desires. This would totally undermine , your feelings of self worth, etc., etc....

 

 

TP

[Forrest Gump]

Hey Grimstone,

 

I know you are going to back and check the posts June has left for you, but the one thing I notice you are missing.

 

Your acknowledging the mistake and apologizing, but I don't see where you are thinking about the actual pain you caused and validating this to her. It really will help if you can dig into the pain you caused her.

 

i.e. - 3.I am sorry for allowing porn to influence my attitudes and desires. This would totally undermine , your feelings of self worth, etc., etc....

 

 

TP

 

 

I left the phrase "I know that there is still a good chance that we will not get through this together" in the letter for a reason. When all this started, I was angry and felt betrayed by her. I told her to just do whatever she wanted, but I was not giving her a divorce and she was not taking my kids. (wasn't I a blessing) Anyway, I just stomped around like a jerk for about 2 weeks. She had quit sleeping at home, even though I was on the couch, and staying at a friend's house. For no logical reason, I called the friend after she left one night. Her friend chewed me up. She told me everything she thought of me. But, she also told me how bad I had hurt my wife. She told me things my wife was afraid to tell me. Something broke in me that night. I apologised to her friend and told her I would let her go. Nobody thought I was serious. I apologised to my wife that night and even thanked her friend for being straight with me. I told them both that I understood what I had done and that I wouldn't expect my daughter to stay married under those conditions and didn't expect her to stay either. That night was a turning point for us. Most of my wife's openness to my change and the possibility of a future together are because I am not going to demand she stay with me. I am fighting and will keep on fighting for her, but will not demand she stay with me. So, even now, if she came home and told me she was done and left, I would not fight her. But, nothing is going to stop me from loving her or applying myself to win her back 100%.

 

As for all the "I's" in the apology letter... I read through the one in the book. After a while, it felt less prsonal and just like comments. I wanted to attach the blame and the apology to me on every line. Anyway, she has had it for 2 weeks or so and she felt like it was good. Told me I could do as many letters as I wanted like this.

 

I know the details are important, but I am more concerned about being the right guy than about just saying the right things. It would be nice to do both. We talk a lot, she believes that I really love her and understand the pain I caused. She believes I am sincere in my apologies and esire to change. She believes she still loves me, but hasn't healed enough to tell me. I know she is still hurting. What I don't know is exactly how to help her heal from the specific mistakes I made. I have taken fresh ownership of our home. Even made a few lists of things I promised to do or she asked me to do, that I never did. She loves a clean house. I have made sure the laundry and dishes were done every night, I have cooked all but a few meals and even knocked out several projects that she has wanted for years over the last 2 months. Even made her a garden and built a private sitting area with a swing in the backyard, stuff she has always wanted. We planted flowers and started a major landscaping project she has wanted done. I put a glass of ice water by her bed and light candles, she likes that, every night. I am finishing a custom motorcycle for her that we started a year ago and has been sitting. I even cleaned out the garage, which has bothered her since we moved in. We talk more, do more with the kids and are acting more like friends. I gave her final say in every decision we face, I gave up control of most of the areas I normally just run with. I gave up a studio I have been trying to open for years and finally did, just walked away and handed it off to another guy. It was my dream, but it also took me away more and wasn't helping our situation. I have changed my diet and my habits, lost 35 pounds since the "you-know-what hit" the fan 2 years ago. I am making efforts every way I know, but still don't know how to help her heal from that one massive mistake.

[J_W]

we are trying to HELP you---

 

and you are arguing against it and defending what you have said/not said, done/not done

 

the VALIDATION of the pain you have inflicted on your bride is VITAL

that is why I have asked you repeatedly to read the thread on the apology --

 

the reason why you should not start off an apology with saying that it may or may not work out -- still makes it all about YOU. please trust me on that

 

the purpose of the apology is to let your bride KNOW that YOU are taking ownership of the pain you inflicted, and that you are understanding that she is wounded and VALIDATING that pain

 

have you read through/listened to/viewed VERY link and section of the PLEASE OPEN THIS SECTION FIRST yet?? it takes 4-6 hours and is important or I would not keep asking you and it would not be title PLEASE OPEN THIS SECTION FIRST

 

It is great that you are keeping at this -- are your plans for the INTENSIVE for next week? or in August?

 

the sooner, the better

 

very excited for you both as you make plans for that

 

prayerfully,

June of

[Forrest Gump]

we are trying to HELP you---

 

and you are arguing against it and defending what you have said/not said, done/not done

 

the VALIDATION of the pain you have inflicted on your bride is VITAL

that is why I have asked you repeatedly to read the thread on the apology --

 

the reason why you should not start off an apology with saying that it may or may not work out -- still makes it all about YOU. please trust me on that

 

the purpose of the apology is to let your bride KNOW that YOU are taking ownership of the pain you inflicted, and that you are understanding that she is wounded and VALIDATING that pain

 

have you read through/listened to/viewed VERY link and section of the PLEASE OPEN THIS SECTION FIRST yet?? it takes 4-6 hours and is important or I would not keep asking you and it would not be title PLEASE OPEN THIS SECTION FIRST

 

It is great that you are keeping at this -- are your plans for the INTENSIVE for next week? or in August?

 

the sooner, the better

 

very excited for you both as you make plans for that

 

prayerfully,

June of

 

 

 

I know you are trying to help. Not trying to argue or be defensive. Just trying to fill in some gaps in where we are right now. Really not trying to defend myself. Just noting that I have made the effort to do the right thing, but really feel like I am missing something.

I have gone through some of the links you suggested, I will go back through them again.

Just had lunch with my wife. We talked. I made it clear to her that I am assuming full responsibility for everything wrong with the marriage and the way I have hurt her. She is still very withdrawn as far as telling me how she feels. She has strong survival skills, learned over years of being hurt by all of the men in her life, including me. She is very cautious about opening her heart once someone hurts her. She tends to act like things are ok and just suffer through it all quietly.

Sorry if I still sound like a jerk in my responses. Really not trying to. I will go back through these posts and the links you suggested. Thank you all for taking the time to coach me.

We just registered for the August intensive. That is the soonest we can make it. I am humbled by these responses and her willingness to go. Thanks again for your time and prayer.

[TimothyPaul]

She is still very withdrawn as far as telling me how she feels. She has strong survival skills, learned over years of being hurt by all of the men in her life, including me. She is very cautious about opening her heart once someone hurts her. She tends to act like things are ok and just suffer through it all quietly.

 

Probably like most women, she has been surrounded by abusive men all her life. As you continue to walk this out, eventually, she will start to feel safe. Then she is going to let it rip. We call that "venting". All the years of hurt and pain are going to come out. For many women this could be a flood of emotions and for some it may be bit by bit. However your wife does this, just make sure you are safe for her. While this may be painful for you, this is a great day.

 

Prepare yourself. You have to sit there, take it all in. Just listen. One of the things I always tell guys, is to be very cautious about your wife's "pauses". Many times, a woman will stop speaking. Us men, think that is the moment a woman is expecting us to respond with our worldly knowledge and tell them how they should fix it. However, many times, they are just stopping to gather their thoughts or process through all the things that are in their minds. These pauses for a guy are uncomfortable. Sometimes in our minds they are excruciatingly long. But you will bless your wife tremendously, by allowing her to finish the whole thought process.

 

Do not be defensive, or try to justify or excuse anything you have done. She may even vent pain from other abusive situations that have nothing to do with you. Its okay.

 

I am so happy for you both that you are going to the intensive. Stay really dialed in until then so you don't slip up and blow the opportunity.

 

TP

[Forrest Gump]

Thank so much for the responses. I am still waiting for that day. We talked some about her "survival skills." I told her that she is free to say whatever she wants, however she wants to say it. I told her even if it meant yelling at me, I was ready for it whenever she was ready to talk about it all. I love her so much. I want to learn to take care of her. Still wide open to more suggestions (or border-line bashing) as you guys have it for me. Six weeks to our intensive. Would like to be less clueless by then.

Still wondering about the "pride in reverse" and "mother/son issues" comments. Anybody?

[Forrest Gump]

I went back through the "start here" pages. Want this all to be done as right as possible. I have a tendency to just bottle stuff up and try to work it out or deal with it on my own. My past experiences with the "accountability" in the church has been stressful, if not traumatic. I have not done well with accountablity. Keeping things to myself is a lot of the reason I am in this situation. So... here's where I am, no happy church face.

I am miserable. I know that all of this takes time and I have no intentions of giving up, but my daily routine is pathetic. I sleep in the basement, alone. I get up early and leave the house alone, because everyone else is sleeping. I work in a repair shop all day, 90% of the time there is alone. I have evenings with my kids, make dinner, usually eat with the family, clean up. Some nights I get to sit and talk with my wife for a while, some not. I am now, at least, getting a hug when she goes to bed, better than it has been. Then I get to go back into the basement and sleep alone. I estimate about 4 seconds a day of physical contact with her. We have had less "sexual contact" this year than we used to have in a week. (meaning anything more than a hug or cheek kiss) I feel awful.

I know some of you are already reaching for the keyboard to tell me to shut up and quit whining. Others are smirking that I am feeling neglected/abused/controlled/whatever. Don't need a reply from those guys. Already at the point of physical illness over my situation. And yes, I am doing my best to minister and love and encourage and bless my wife every minute. I am doing the "stuff" and I am thankful that she has softened and we are becoming friends again. But, the tension of looking at my beautiful wife without touching her is killing me. (yeas, that's the goal, dead me, I know) Watching her walk into a seperate bedroom and close the door every night is awful. I am doing my best to not make it about me and just give, but I am so alone. My close friends and family think I have lost my mind. Nobody will accept the direction Joel and Kathy are teaching. I have been yelled at by my own family, other will not even come to my house over this. I have been looking for this for 2 years. For 2 years I have lived, shifting between uncertainty over my marriage to utter fear that my family will just get up and go. I believe that these teachings are what I have been looking for.

I just needed to be real on a bad day for you guys. When does it turn around? What am I still missing?

[TimothyPaul]

Wow man, I wish you were on the mens call today. We discussed every issue you are struggling through..

 

Don't need a reply from those guys.

 

Yes you do. Those are the guys that will be honest and tell it like it is. The last thing you want is someone to placate you and tell you it will be alright (because that implies you can stay the way your are). Its not going to be alright, its going to be great! When you walk this out and become the man God has called you to be.

 

God has great plans for you. But it is not going to happen over night.

 

I want you to think of something for a moment. All your feelings and emotions are real. We get that, and while we may beat you up over a self centered post, its not like we don't empathize with you. Where I draw the line, is when you get "stuck" in self centeredness, and don't see the bigger picture.

 

When does it start to get better? That is entirely in your hands. (that is the bigger picture). This may sound trite, but it is true, you can look at every situation from only two perspectives. Good or bad. You get to choose which way you would like to see it.

 

Let me share my perspective:

 

Evenings with the kids - wow, Grimstone is lucky, I see my daughter once a month

make dinner - what a blessing Grimstone has to serve his family, I eat PB sandwiches over a counter alone.

eat with family - see above

clean up - yea, I do that one too

sit and talk to wife - cool, Grimstone actually talks to his wife, mine is an occasional email or text

a hug - okay. lets not even go there...

 

So you see, from my perspective, you are being blessed. You have the opportunity to heal your wife, bring her love and joy right there in the flesh. I do it all "remotely" via prayer.

 

You are going to have to find every upside to a situation. It is not easy, but they are there. You are going to have to learn amongst the pain and suffering, there is a purpose. That is good. - That is an upside. Whenever you are feeling the pain and suffering, try to stop and take in what can you learn from this situation. Is it something you have hampered on your wife, perhaps you can take your pain and use it to understand her pain. That is a huge blessing.

 

I know you feel like garbage right now, I am sorry you have to go through this. But this is the deep stuff that when we say the dying process is hard, that you are going to have to work through. To me, its easy to stop self gratifying, looking at porn. and such things like that. Where it really gets hard is when your feeling rejected and unloved and alone, and you have to swallow that, take it to God and love your wife anyway.

 

When you walk through that valley and get to the other side, that is a good day.

 

 

TimothyPaul

[Chrysallis]

If you cut bait now you will wreck everything you have built over the last 2 years.....

[Forrest Gump]

There is no way I would give up now. Regardless of how I am feeling or what I see, she is worth it. Looking forward to that turning point when she feels safe and wants to be with me again. Today was tough, but still making progress. I appreciate TimothyPaul's comments. I am praying for you, too. Part of what got me messed up, though, was comparing myself to other guys. Compared to her dad, stepfathers, brothers, etc... I thought I was a pretty great guy. I was pretty confident that I had this all under control. Completely clueless. I know who I have to compare myself to, and I don't look so good next to Him.

And, just to tell you where I am. To the average person, I would be considered a biker. I ride and build bikes. I built mine from a bare frame because it was something I a;ways wanted to do. Well, it has been broken down since about the same time I found Joel and Kathy's website. (almost 2 months) I can't fix it. Done all I know to do and still can't ride it. So, every day, I walk past this amazing machine and leave it there because there is something wrong and I am out of ideas. At the same time, I get to see my wife almost everyday and can't be with her. Like the bike, there is still something I am missing to make it work right. There are a lot of days when it seems like it would be a lot easier to just live somewhere else. Feel like the starving man who can't quite reach the food. But, at the same time, I have tried the stuff that didn't work, got to be closer now. I wish we were able to get to the intensive sooner, but August is the best we can work out.

Again, I really appreciate the prayers and comments.

[TimothyPaul]

comparing myself to other guys. Compared to her dad, stepfathers, brothers, etc... I thought I was a pretty great guy. I was pretty confident that I had this all under control.

 

yea, what is it about us guys that we do this? Pretty amazing what wonderful guys we think we are as we abuse the heck out of wives.... gee good think I don't know how to do that puke emotican. We deserve to puke on ourselves don't we?