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Re-establishing an "emotional connection"


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I just wanted to see if anyone could give me some advice. I recently attended an intensive with my wife. To make a long story short, a couple of months ago my wife cheated on me (likely because I was passive and a verbal abuser throughout our marriage). I then responded by cheating on her. We have two children and are both working toward keeping our marriage and family together. Yesterday, my wife told me that she feels like she has lost (or never had) an emotional connection with me. She claims she had a very strong emotional connection with the man she cheated on me with and feels like she has never had one like that with me. Being that I am a passive guy, these words deeply offended me and I have been depressed since she said this to me. Since the intensive, we have started to hold hands again and occasionally she will give me a peck on the lips. But she has stopped telling me she loves me despite me repeatedly telling her. I have been following Joel and Kathy's advice and giving her lots of hugs, smiles and kisses as well as showering her with compliments and words of love. However, as soon as I even try to do anything more physical than kissing her, she yells at me and says I am not respecting her. I feel like I have changed immensely since returning from the intensive, but I feel like she doesn't care and she maybe just wants out of the marriage. I think that over the past few weeks, I have realized what a great wife I have had all along. Now, I just don't want to lose her. I do realize that it may take time for her to heal but, in the mean time, I am afraid that she will leave. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

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Glad that you have come around for some help.

 

Why don't you two get on tonights marriage mentoring call at 9 pm?

 

1-512-716-6531 and the pw is 981128#

 

Remember that we wanted you two to be reading the books ten minutes each day, watching the DVD one hour per week together and being on a group call at least once each week.

 

I don't recall who you are by your screen name or story - but these things are very important for you both to keep moving forward.

 

Read the sections on the forum that address passive husbands. I am not sure, but if you do a search on the word "passive" in subject lines, you might find the two or three topics that are dedicated to helping passive husband and their wives.

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Hi there! I'm glad you came and asked for some help.

 

Being that I am a passive guy, these words deeply offended me and I have been depressed since she said this to me.

 

This is you being the wife - you are responding to her. That's backwards. Get over yourself. This is not about you. Control your feelings so they don't control you.

 

Since your wife went to the intensive with you, I'm guessing that she's willing to at least allow you to try to heal your marriage. I'm also pretty sure that you have absolutely no idea what an "emotional connection" looks or feels like, and no idea of how to get there. That's OK. We can help you with that.

 

It would help us to help you if you could tell us what your and your wife's temperament analysis showed. In the meantime, I'm going to suggest doing something really radical - talk to your wife. :P Say something like Honey, I know I'm totally clueless, but I honestly have no idea what feels like an emotional connection to you. Could you help me out with that? What are some things I could do to try to connect emotionally? Most women will say things like talking to her, making eye contact, holding her hand, and listening to her without looking like you're dying to run off and do the next project. If she won't talk to you, start with those things.

 

I'm also going to give you what has become my standard homework assignment for passive guys - I'd like you to read this thread: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1000-the-donkey-the-delorean-eeyore-herdensity/ HD used to be a pretty passive guy, but he's grown up and learned to love his wife the way she needs to be loved. It's long - over 130 pages - so you won't read it all in one sitting, and it's easiest to bookmark where you leave off so you can easily go back to the same page. It will also seem a bit disjointed because it was originally two threads that were merged. HD is very transparent and wrote a lot for a passive guy, and I'm sure you'll see yourself in his posts. You'll learn a lot from the advice he was given, and you'll get a lot of insight on how your wife probably feels from Eeyore's posts. It's well worth the time it takes to read through it.

 

Remember that it's always better to do something, even if it's wrong, than to do nothing. If you get it wrong, don't fall into the usual passive guy trap of beating yourself up over it. It just means you've found one thing that doesn't work for your wife. Just try something else.

 

Above all, do not stop just because your wife doesn't give you the response you think you deserve. She's not going to heal overnight, and when she heals is not up to you. You just stay consistent and do what you need to do, no matter how she does or doesn't respond.

Edited by Looney_Tunes
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Heartmd,

Hey, hope you don't mind me posting my thoughts on your thread. I'm just another dude going through the process but I really wanted to post. I can relate to the feelings you expressed in your post. My wife hasn't cheated on me but I'm sure we're pretty similar in the passivity and it sounds like you're kinda like me, clueless to what "emotional connection" looks like.

 

I know what you mean about feeling depressed and offended about what your wife said. I'm sure it feels like poo. But, Looney_tunes is right. Our feelings, quite simply, do not matter. And it's not because you don't matter, no, quite the contrary, you are very important. In fact, you're great! But those stinkin feelings, they're not so great. They don't matter, because right now, they're unchristlike feelings. Christ did indeed have feelings, just as many as you and I have! His were a little, ahem, a lot more mature than ours seem to be. But you see, underneath all of those stupid, stinky, ugly feelings, there's a son of God waiting to take his place. And when he does, the christlike feelings will come along with it, and those ones... yes, those ones matter.

 

So I hope this little tid bit has helped in some way or another. Just remember when you start feeling depressed or offended, You are Great. You really are. You may have a ways to go in this journey, but you'll get there, and I'm sure your wife will start falling in love with the man who's already in you, dying to come out. Get it, dying. ha. God bless you bro.

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Hey Heartmd,

Just wanted to pop in real quick and make a helpful suggestion that will hopefully help you in your marriage restoration, which is why we're all here, right???. As well as reading the excellent books written by the wonderful Joel and Kathy, a book that I've found to be very helpful is "It's mostly his fault" by Robert Mark Alter. It IS a secular book, and it has a lot of cussing. The reason I suggest it is because it IS filled with GOD'S principles about marriage. He's pretty funny in the way he delivers the message and very practical and "man-to-man" style of writing, just like Joel and Kathy's wonderful and insightful books are written. I find it very helpful on the practical "how to be a good husband" advice, that on top of Joel and Kathy's books, which help me with the "why to do it unconditionally". It seems like this combination will help a guy like you, it's really REALLY helped a guy like me.

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Thanks so much for the advice everyone has given me so far. I was wondering if anyone could help with my current situation. Since we got back from the marriage intensive, my wife has been refusing to open up to me. I tried the 20 HSK thing but she intially said it was too overwhelming for her and told me to back off, despite Joel and Kathy telling her by text to stop backing off. She will not initiate ANY form of physical contact (including holding hands and kissing) which is fine with me but this has been going on for months now. I would think by now that she should be initiating something if she was interested in continuing our marriage. She has allowed me to hold her hands and kiss her on a few occasions, but the minute I do one little thing wrong, she says "my walls have gone up again." Then she resets and it takes us another one to two weeks to get back to our previous level of physical contact. The whole cycle is just really starting to wear on me.

 

We finally did make love twice since coming back from the intensive, but she said it was not enjoyable for her because she was not emotionally connected to me. Therefore, she said she does not want to have sex anytime in the near future again. We have probably had sex only 4-5 x in the past 9 months despite me practically begging for it at times (which is immature obviously). The usual routine is that I ask for sex and then she says no. I then get angry that she is refusing to open up to me physically despite me trying 100% to be a better husband. She then says I am guilting and manipulating her. I then say that she is trying to control me by withholding sex because she is angry with me. She keeps saying it is going to take her time. The problem is she has been saying this for two years now (even before the affairs we had on each other). I even caught her masturbating the other day which really made me angry and sparked a huge fight between us. Is this pattern going to continue for the rest of the marriage?

 

I have even been asking her if we could dedicate some time to call Joel and Kathy for a counselling session and she is refusing. She is also refusing to see a marriage counselor in our local area right now. She even says that I am barely even a friend to her right now; why would she want to do anything physical with me? She also says that the only reason she is staying with me is because we have kids. Additionally, she has said that she is not sure if she wants to stay in the marriage and that she could walk out the door at any time. With this lack of reassurance from her, do you think that I want to try my hardest to be the perfect husband? When I ask her, "how can I be guaranteed that you will not leave me?" She says, "well there are no guarantees, but all I can say is that I am still here." I will admit that I have lied to her a few times since we got back from the intensive and have guilted/manipulated as well as verbally abused her on occasion. However, I KNOW that I have significantly improved from my former state. So, I do realize that I am a majority of the problem in our marriage, so that is why I am asking for help. What should I do? Thanks.

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Have you been getting on the phone calls and asking for help every night possible?

 

You need to air this out with the moderators of the ministry. They know how to explain all this better than the two of you do with each other, in the heat of the moment. You could get on the call right now -- and speak!

 

By the way, YOU are meant to be the initiator of emotional life for your wife. She is built as a responder. Remember?

 

Don't wait for her to initiate.

 

Anyway, you want to be a Christlike Christian -- wife or no wife, right? Are you calling on the Lord for strength to live for Him?

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Have you been getting on the phone calls and asking for help every night possible?

 

You need to air this out with the moderators of the ministry. They know how to explain all this better than the two of you do with each other, in the heat of the moment. You could get on the call right now -- and speak!

 

By the way, YOU are meant to be the initiator of emotional life for your wife. She is built as a responder. Remember?

 

Don't wait for her to initiate.

 

Anyway, you want to be a Christlike Christian -- wife or no wife, right? Are you calling on the Lord for strength to live for Him?

 

 

Thanks MaryJane. Since my last post, my wife has suddenly become completely irrational. She refuses to get on the calls and she gets mad when I mention that I will get on the calls. Kathy and Joel have tried to contact her but she refuses to talk to them as well. She is also refusing any marriage counselling in our area. She has basically said she is divorcing me and there is nothing I can do to change that. She basically said she does not care about what impact her divorcing me has on our family (including our children). I just feel like she is not giving me a chance. We just got back from the intensive like 1.5 months ago and she was away from me in her home state for nearly 1 month of that time. I just feel like all I can do at this point is pray and hope that she changes her mind. What else is there to do? Thanks.

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I`m very sorry about all that.

 

All I can think of to tell you is, PRAY and TALK to call moderators as much as you can, for encouragement.

 

Try tonight`s call. 1-512-716-6531 and the pw is 981128#

 

You need the men`s calls too, I`d say. Call Joel to sign up for them. Here`s his cell phone number in case you don`t have it handy: 1-843-298-0211

Edited by MaryJane
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She will not initiate ANY form of physical contact (including holding hands and kissing) which is fine with me but this has been going on for months now. I would think by now that she should be initiating something if she was interested in continuing our marriage. Theres a double message here, on the one hand you say its fine, on the other you have put a subtle "should" in. this is double-mindedness, and your wife will be picking up on it.

 

We finally did make love twice since coming back from the intensive, but she said it was not enjoyable for her because she was not emotionally connected to me. Therefore, she said she does not want to have sex anytime in the near future again. We have probably had sex only 4-5 x in the past 9 months despite me practically begging for it at times (which is immature obviously). The usual routine is that I ask for sex and then she says no. I then get angry that she is refusing to open up to me physically despite me trying 100% to be a better husband. She then says I am guilting and manipulating her. If she says this, she's right on some level, that you are not Agape loving her, you are coming at her with an agenda, and with strings attached, and with expectations, we women have radar, we pick up on this stuff, even if we can't verbalise it, something feels "off"

 

I have even been asking her if we could dedicate some time to call Joel and Kathy for a counselling session and she is refusing. She is also refusing to see a marriage counselor in our local area right now. Probably because she feels she will be pressured into "doing the right thing."

She even says that I am barely even a friend to her right now; why would she want to do anything physical with me? She also says that the only reason she is staying with me is because we have kids. Additionally, she has said that she is not sure if she wants to stay in the marriage and that she could walk out the door at any time. With this lack of reassurance from her, do you think that I want to try my hardest to be the perfect husband? I dont know, would you? only you can answer that, its entirely your choice, but the choices you make now will have ramifications and consequences for the rest of your life, for the rest of your wifes life, and the rest of your childrens lives.

 

When I ask her, "how can I be guaranteed that you will not leave me?" She says, "well there are no guarantees, but all I can say is that I am still here." This is you being a responder, a girl, and putting the burden of responsiblity on your wife, like some kind of fair exchange, love just isn't like that, it just isn't.

 

I will admit that I have lied to her a few times since we got back from the intensive and have guilted/manipulated as well as verbally abused her on occasion. However, I KNOW that I have significantly improved from my former state. well......good that you've been honest here, not so good that these things are still happening at all.

So, I do realize that I am a majority of the problem in our marriage, so that is why I am asking for help. What should I do? Thanks.

 

 

Thanks MaryJane. Since my last post, my wife has suddenly become completely irrational. She refuses to get on the calls and she gets mad when I mention that I will get on the calls. Kathy and Joel have tried to contact her but she refuses to talk to them as well. She is also refusing any marriage counselling in our area. She has basically said she is divorcing me and there is nothing I can do to change that. She basically said she does not care about what impact her divorcing me has on our family (including our children). I just feel like she is not giving me a chance. We just got back from the intensive like 1.5 months ago and she was away from me in her home state for nearly 1 month of that time. I just feel like all I can do at this point is pray and hope that she changes her mind. What else is there to do? Thanks.

 

I might be wrong, please correct me, if you think I am. What I'm getting here, is that you've still got one foot in, one foot out. The foot out, is coming from a place that wants some kind of return on his investment, his effort, and feels entitled to it, and feels hard done to, cos he's not getting that.

 

Being a loving person, isnt about "getting" loved in return. This is immature and childish. The harder we try to "get love" by doing loving things, the less we love authentically. Its just a game, and we will always be shafted, cos love just does not EVER work that way. Not EVER. Love works by us deciding to BE loving, to both other people, and ourselves, this is mature, adult, Godly love. Imagine it a bit like one of your children now, do you love them because they will give you some love back? If they don't come through for you, are you gonna start complaining? No, cos you know that isn't how it works.

 

I know your wife isn't a child, and she has her own walk with God, and her own issues to deal with, but it really does start with you. Are you willing to agape love her, with no guarantee of a return? I think this is what it's going to take here. A decision to do that, and not look back. Yes, its a very tough decision, but that what grown ups do, they make tough decisions, and sacrifice, and put others first. Its a paradox, this is the only way, we get love back, by first making the personal decision ourselves, to be loving.

 

It sounds a bit like you are writing out how hard done to you are, despite the fact that you are trying, and you want some kind of validation for giving up, and not going the distance. It's quite simply your choice. Give up, if thats what you want. If you can't be whole-hearted about it, you will be doing you wife a favour. Going through the motions for a period of time, to prove to yourself, and everyone else that "hey, look, I really tried, I did my best, and I'm not the one at fault here" is just being manipulative, and blame shifting, and hurting your wife more, which in turn will hurt your kids. And its very, very, very dis-empowering for you. Deep - down, somewhere inside you, you will know the truth, that you didn't really do your best, that you didn't throw yourself into it 100 %, and you didn't lay down your life for your wife. If this is the way you wanna go, not really willing to lay your life down, thats an honest enough decision, plenty of guys do that, plenty of fathers do that, you'll have a lot of company out there. But at least be honest about it. But there are also men who decide to rise to the challenge, and I don't think any of them regret it.

 

You and your wife are stuck in a power struggle at the moment. And there wont be any winners. Its like that scottish game, where 2 teams are pulling on a rope, and for a time, thats where the stability is, that no-one gives in. when one team does finally lose their strength, both teams fall down. Just put down your end of the rope. stop the power struggle. stop guilt tripping her.

 

I had a terrible childhood, and I've also struggled learning how to be a good mother. I haven't always been able to give my daughter the things I would have wanted to give her, and the stability I desperatley wanted to. I come from a family of 5. Both parents dead. My parents weren't great, but we did go to great schools and we are all very good at academia. Every single one of my siblings has been to university, and are really, really successful. My brother is an expert architect, planner AND site manager, I bet there's less than a handful of people in the country that can do what he does, design, put plans in successfully, AND build. He's won national awards. My 2 sisters are very high up in teaching, and my other sister also teaches and lives in a gorgeous mansion.

 

I dropped out of university, even though I could do it, I dont have a career, and now my marriage is falling apart. In the worlds eyes, I might seem like a failure, but I certainly don't feel like one, I LOVE God, more than anything else in the world, and I LOVE, because I know how much I am loved. Because knowing God has taught me what life is really all about.

 

I'm really close to my brother and in the last couple of years he has started to pursue a relationship with God, and talks to me about it a lot. For all his success, he feels empty. I frustrate him sometimes, cos he worries about me a lot, and tries to get me to worry more! He can't understand why I live the way I do, and I don't get worried. I had a real heart to heart with him a couple of weeks ago, and explained to him, that sometimes, I wish I were different, I wish I was satisfied with life the way other people seem to be, and my journey has not been one I'm particularly happy about. Its more like a resignation than anything else. I have just resigned myself to the fact that my heart will always rule my head, and thats the way it is for me, and theres just no point in not doing that. No point in fighting it. Does it make me fit in? No. Does it make me successful in the worlds eyes? No. Do I have loads of money? No.

 

my friend is about 5 years younger than me. Her childhood was the complete opposite of mine. She's scottish, grew up with christian parents, really supportive, had horses, went to church, lots of stabilty, and guidance, and no tradgedys.

 

Her mum is dying. I went round last night. She sent me a text telling me she was having a "Wee whiskey" after getting in from work. I love whiskey, and I wasn't letting her sit there and drink it without me! As the evning went on, she cried her heart out. She knows how bad my childhood was, and knows she had it good, compared to a lot of other people. She cried, cos she does not feel loved by her mother, she does not feel accepted, valued, and enjoyed for who she is. She feels like as long as she is living her life according to her mums "standards" then, and only then, is she accepted. She feels so guilty for feeling this way, cos she knows how good she had it. But she just doesnt feel loved. And now her mum is dying. So sad.

 

I came away, feeling glad about myself, and the path I have chosen for myself. My daughter knows she is loved, she knows how much I delight in her, and how much I enjoy her, and that I accept her. Even when she makes decisions I don't like, I am honest with her, but I tell her it has to be her decision, and I will not be angry, and stop loving her.

 

I do not regret choosing to LOVE. It has been the hardest, most challenging decision, and the best decision of my whole life. I have had to turn my back on many things, that would have come more easily to me, and made me fit in more. I would not swap with one of my sisters for the whole world.

 

This guy is amazing. I think he's called "the intellectual of evangilists" Very clever guy. Very Godly guy. My brother put me onto him actually!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDR3xCaXiXc

 

 

Decide to love Mr heartmd. You wont regret it, I promise.

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Mary Jane, Looney and Princess have given you good wisdom! Are you listening?

 

 

All I want to add is a quick response to:

 

She has basically said she is divorcing me and there is nothing I can do to change that.

 

YOU divorced HER emotionally a LONG TIME ago. SHE has stayed with you this long HOPING and HOPING that you would begin to hear her heart's cry.

 

All you can hear is your own heart crying in response to the pain you're feeling from her reaction to the PAIN you caused HER!

 

YOU are too busy loving yourself to hear her HORRENDOUS PAIN! She went to the Intensive with you HOPING and HOPING that you'd HEAR her pain, you didn't and you don't. Her hope is broken beyond repair (in human terms). Wake up and take your eyes off your own discomfort.

 

ALL you know is that it hurts that she is reacting to the way you hurt her. WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!! WAKE UP!!!!

Go ahead, get angry at ME for calling it self-love. I am just a little wife who has spent years up against my own husband's self-love. GODLY LOVE WINS. You are not without hope, because GOD is ALL ABOUT HOPE!

Edited by Crystal
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I hope I didn't scare you away! You are in the right place here when you come here...I hope to see you posting some more.

 

I know it's a really hard time for you and you have found the right place to be when you come here for help.

 

Don't let the bold print of my post yesterday bother you! You are among friends here.

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Thanks to everyone for the great advice. Princess Fiona, you have a good point about loving and not wanting to be loved. This is definitely difficult for me at times. Isn't marriage counseling the right thing though? I don't see how she could feel "pressured" to do something that can only benefit and not harm her/us. And Crystal, I don't disagree with your statement about me divorcing her a long time ago emotionally. You are totally right. And your bold words did not offend me. I'm a pretty tough guy most of the time, despite my wife saying I'm the most passive person she has ever met. It just seems like now I am on a time schedule (and the clock is ticking fast for me to try to fix things) since she reminds me multiple times a day that we need to get started on the divorce process soon. I just feel like I am past the point of no return and at this point, my wife is not even trying or wanting to work on the marriage. She is past the stage I am in right now and it just feels like it is all over. What is strange is that up until about 1 week ago, things were going okay and she was trying to work on the marriage (she was allowing me to hold her hand at times, kiss her at times, etc.). Then one day last week, a switch turned on and she turned into a monster. And I definitely did nothing to trigger this switch because I was on call at work when she had this drastic personality change. She suddenly became extremely irritated with me, starting asking frequently about divorce and threatening a divorce, began cursing at me, and even hitting me (see below). I told her at one point that she has some mental health issues and should see a psychiatrist, which probably did not help things.

 

I feel completely hopeless now because it seems like there is absolutely nothing I can do now to change her mind about divorce. Things have gotten worse since my last post, obviously. I actually set up marriage counseling in our area and left a note and told her where/when to show up last Friday, but she never showed up. So I had a counseling session on my own that day. She then yelled at me when I got home because I spent the money on it (meanwhile she is going to counseling on her own - see below). I told her I refuse to allow her to divorce me without marriage counseling. The only marriage counseling we have ever had in our marriage is the 2 hours of counseling we got from Joel and Kathy at the marriage intensive. We never even had premarriage counseling. What makes me mad is that she is seeing an individual counselor weekly, who apparently is giving her advice on how to go about divorcing me quickly and efficiently. This makes me mad because she can devote time to this counselor but not to marriage counseling. Even if she does not care about me, she at least owes it to her kids to at least attempt to make the marriage work before she checks out.

 

Last weekend, we were sitting in church and I happened to notice a Skype phone alert from the guy whom she had an affair with me on (who by the way is married with kids and is currently working on getting his life back together). Apparently, she had re-initiated contact with him and had talked with him twice (that is her story) in the past week. I then contacted his wife to inform her and she told me that he and my wife had even had lunch together last week, which my wife denies. In retaliation for this, his wife called child protective services on my wife since she said there were times where my wife left the kids alone to go jogging with her husband back in the summer. I have no idea whether this is true or not but now I am dealing with this issue. My wife thinks that me and this guy's wife are an alliance and called child protective services together, which is crazy. While would I called child protective services on my own kids? That affects my status as a parent as well.

 

To top off my fun weekend, my wife punched me in the stomach for trying to hold her hand two days ago, in front of our kids who actually commented on the incident. I could not even believe she would do this after I tried to show my love to her despite her emotionally cheating on me again last week. I am starting to wonder why I am even trying so hard to make this work. I mean my wife is controlling (e.g. she yelled at me the other day when I did not put the kitchen juicer lid back on straight). She curses at me multiple times a day. She is not a happy person in general and always is complaining about something (which is totally different from the person I married). She is very self-centered and obviously cares nothing about her family since she thinks the only solution to the problem is divorce. She yells at me when I buy her anything, including flowers. Also, she even claims that she will take the kids back to her home state in the midwest once we are divorced. At that point, I will be 10 hours away from the kids. We both are currently living on the east coast. I explained to her that with joint custody, I doubt that a distance separation of this magnitude will be allowed legally. I also told her that only seeing me a couple of times a month (since I work about 80-90 hours a week in the medical field) will likely effect the emotional well being of the children - but she did seem to care about this comment when I mentioned it.

 

Currently, she is trying to convince me to go to mediation for divorce, since it is cheaper than getting lawyers. She claims that if I don't agree to go to mediation soon, she will spend thousands of my dollars (since she does not work) to go get a lawyer for her self so she can begin the divorce process. Fortunately, I don't have thousands of dollars so I am not sure where she will get this money. Her parents could possibly lend it to her though. Should I just go along with the mediation at this point or keep resisting it? I tried to convince her to get a legal separation, but she wants nothing to do with that. She keeps saying she has made her decision and her decision is final. She also keeps saying that we could always remarry after the divorce if we want but she says divorce is the only option for HER right now and that is final. She said it does not matter what I want because I have no say.

 

I would like to get on the calls more but I am on call and stuck at the hospital on multiple nights a week, so I rarely have a chance to get on the calls. I am going on a ski trip this weekend because I kind of have to for my work. I offered for her to come but she refused. I then offered to stay home but she said if I do that we can start working on dividing our things up for the divorce. So I am just going to go on the ski trip (it is a one day trip) because I honestly think she just needs some time away from me to get her head on straight. As I said, she has refused to get on the calls, talk to Joel and Kathy, and is not even answering calls from one of the girls she met at the intensive who has been trying to call her to give her some advice on the situation. I will just keep praying at this point and leave her completely in God's hands because obviously the situation is out of my hands currently. Thank you all again for the support.

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http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/5378-moderators/

 

Please look at a couple of things from this above post.

 

I don't see one mention of God, in any of your posts HeartMD. You cannot do this on your own. You need God.

 

Again, I'll say, you are stuck in a power struggle, the more you pull, the more she will pull against you. Drop the counselling idea. Say a divorce is not what you want, because you love her, but agree to it in principle. Just to calm her down. She has not got mental health issues, don't say that again. She is immature, you both are, we all are, to varying degrees, or we wouldn't be in this ministry. You keep pouring fuel on a fire. And now, child protective services have been called. Are you crazy? These are your kids. CPS is a very powerful, sometimes crazy organisation. Once they get an idea in their heads, and the bit between their teeth, there's no knowing where things will go.

 

I see what you're up against, but, again, I also something very subtle here going on. I still see you trying to "state your case"

 

HeartMd, on some level, you could probably convince a lot of people of your case. You've got a lot of material here. I agree with you. OK? And that, my friend, is as much validation as you're ever gonna get from me. And I doubt very much, that you're going to get much more than this from anyone else here in this ministry. If you want that kind of validation, you're in the wrong place. If thats what your'e after, Go to the nearest pub, order a pint of beer, and go and sit with all the other sad, bitter, unhappy, lonely, penniless, guys, who made stupid decisions, but still want a pity party. Misery loves company.

 

But that is not going to save your marriage. You need to make a decision, quickly. Are you willing to take 100% responsibility for saving this marriage, with no help or input from your wife? Are you willing to reframe that last sentence I wrote, and see it as an HONOUR and a PRIVILEGE, and a decision that will benefit you, as well as your wife and kids, rather than "Why should I be the one taking all the hits, and taking all the blame, I'm not the only one to blame here"

 

Are you willing to commit, or not? Only you can decide.

 

The longer you stay on the fence, the messier, and nastier this situation is going to get.

 

You need to make a quality decision here. And not look back.

 

Taking 100% responsibility, is a total win/win for you. A no-brainer I'd say. It will make you a better man, a better person, a better father, a better worker,

 

Ephhesians 5 says, "he who loves his wife, loves himself" Your brain cannot differentiate between loving your wife, and loving yourself. All it knows is, you've decided to be loving. This is just love heartmd. It's good for you, for your own mental, emotional, and physical health. and love works when it has an OBJECT to love. make your wife that object. Do yourself a favour. Ask God for wisdom, and remember His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways. The things He asks us to do are totally counter-intuitive to the world as we might understand it.

 

I want you to take stock TODAY. Google some horror stories today, about the CPS. see what they have done to other families. Then get some professional advice, TODAY. If you carry on down this petty, petty, petty, road of she's done this/ I've done this, trying to weigh things up, and make things "fair" between you and your wife, your kids could end up being taken away from you for months. I'm not kidding, google it. stop being stupid. Be wise, ask for wisdom, or go and hire some from someone else, in the form of legal advice. Stop this thing in it's tracks, before it becomes a runaway train. If you repeat some of the things you've said here, to the wrong person, at the wrong time, like mental health issues, her hitting you, threatening you, your kids could get taken away in the blink of an eye, and be scarred for life, and it could take months of expensive, time-consuming legal wrangling to sort out. Are you willing to risk all that to be "right in you own eyes" ?

 

Pray, pray, pray. Get others to pray. I will pray. Stop this train before it crashes, and you are dealing with disaster. Wake up man.

Edited by Princess Fiona
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Hey HeartMD,

 

Before I start, let me give you a quick background. I've been apart of this ministry for 2-1/2 years plus. I am the typical guy that got this in the head but resisted letting it into my heart. My wife (now-ex) gave me so many chances (Grace) - even to the day we were divorced, and I blew it. - so that being said, I am well versed in what not to do.

 

Now, lets deal with some reality... and I'm going to tell you like it is.

 

Dude, I just read through your whole thread. You have been to an intensive, but you are not getting it. This entire thread is about what your wife is doing or not doing and your response. And it is completely the "poor me" mentality.

 

OK, so we get it. Your wife is totally mentally out of wack and should be committed and you are perfect. (yea - right- jeez, I can't even believe you could suggest something so ridiculous).

 

How about instead of focusing on your wife, you start paying attention to yourself. - As your learned at the intensive, your wife is your mirror. So if you are not getting a positive response, guess what. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!!!!

 

If you are trying to re-establish the emotional connection, what are you doing to do that. - Your wife is not going to even think of being intimate if you not feeding her need for a relationship. And the longer you let the other guy do that, the more and more this is going to become increasingly difficult. Quite obviously, the other guy is meeting needs you are not.

 

remember the scripture... "Husbands live with your wives in understanding"? - It is up to you to start "understanding" your wife. This does not necessarily mean the actual words that come out of her mouth, but listening to her words and hearing her heart. When she says she does not want to be intimate - there is a reason. Are you exploring what that reason is?

 

Your clock is not ticking because a potential divorce is looming. Your clock is ticking because as Princess Fiona says, you are not making a decision to be a Christlike man. If you have read Ken Nair's books you know a divorce means absolutely nothing, So stop focusing on the divorce and focus on being the husband God has called you to be.

 

If you wife hits you in front of the kids, a proper response would be; "Honey, I am so sorry I have been such an abusive husband I put you in this position. You have absolutely every right to be upset" - Imagine what your kids would think if Dad (their hero) took responsibility for his abuse. I am not condoning her hitting you, but lets be real. You are the man, and you drove her into this position. So take your lumps and get over it. I would imagine its your pride and ego that was damaged in front of your kids - not that there was a great deal of physical injury.

 

OK - I'm going to stop my tyriad for the moment. Your thread really got me worked up.

 

So lets do this - completely stop posting about your wife and lets start addressing the real issues.

 

1. - please post your interpretation of what Ephesians 5:25-33 means to you. Read the verses and come back here and apply it to you and your wife.

2. - what ways are you still fulfilling your carnal nature. - Self gratification, pornagraphy, alchohol, tobbaco, etc....

3. - read 1 Corinthians 13 out loud to your self. Every place Paul uses the word "I" or "Love" replace it with your name. Come back here and tell us what self discovery you find.

4. - at the intensive, J&K did a temperament analysis - please post your results as well as your Wife's. We need to know your challenges and gifts so you can use them to be the blessing to your wife that God intended.

 

I'm sure I'll think of more as time rolls on, but lets start with this.

 

And to correct an earlier post on your thread - yes, your feelings do matter - they count very much. God promises you peace, love and joy. So He is very much concerned with your feelings. - However, a man's feelings and issues are taken to the Cross. We take our frustration, bitterness, hurts to Christ. He is your savior, the one who has washed you clean from your Sin with His blood. He certainly did not spill out that Blood, for you to bury your emotions inside. He did it so you would share those emotions with Him, Your are His chosen one - never forget that. What God asks us to do, is never take those feelings to our wives and lay that burden on them. Just as Christ did for you. A Christlike man puts his wife's feelings above his own. We are the Source of Life for our wives. - Husband's are the source of life for their wives, Christ is the source of life for the husbands, God is the source of life for Christ - thats scripture. The Truth in black and white.

 

HeartMD, I'm going to beat you up and ride you very hard. As a guy that screwed this up, my love for you as a fellow Christian brother can not sit back and watch you lose your wife, kids, house, everything.

 

Trust me brother - you do not want to be sitting here a year later, divorced, alone, never seeing your kids, broke and saying "if only I had done....".

 

Love TimothyPaul

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Hello HeartMD...

 

i have read through your whole thread also and along with TimothyPaul and others, i'm going to try to draw

out a few things to get you and your bride moving again towards restoration....3 steps.

 

STEP #1

Brother, it's time to come to Jesus. Seriously, this ministry is based on a man humbling himself before the

Father and committing to change. Changing into the image of His son. This is your highest calling right now

b/c w/o the infilling of the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit operating in your heart and life, your

dear bride will not see the things in you that will draw her back to you. This is about you changing from the

inside out....displaying through repentance and humilitation a changed and renewed heart. My thoughts are that

the HeartMD needs to see the his Father in heaven, the Heart-Designer, for a check-up. Work on this. This is

all bout you changing from the spirit out to your behaviors through to your words and actions.

 

STEP#2

Brother, it's time to Cowboy-UP! Your focus has been all about you! You are a man and it's time to put on

a vest of strength and prepare yourself. Princess Fiona asked you what are you willing to committ to, to

make this work out? Haven't seen an answer yet....please provide. You are the initiator...nothing will

happen in a positive manner at this point unless you initiate it! You must go first...If you would like her

to be more tender, then you do it first. If you desire more grace and patience, then you display it first. If

you would like tenderness and sincerity, then you share it first. IF you want her to be loving, then you go

first. If you want her to be happy and have a good time in your home, then you share the love of God and Joy

of the Lord first.

 

STEP #3

It's time for patience. Not sure if you really are a doc, but if you are, here's a simple analogy;

Your marriage has suffered a severe stroke.

It's gonna take an intensive effort from you, both spiritually and physically, for a season of time for it to heal

and get going the right direction again. You are not to expect any changes from your wife at all; do not have an

expectation that she is seeing you "being sweet" today, and will want sex tonight...aint gonna happen. This is a

giving. This will be a season of time where your bride is gonna watch you and study you. She'll say that you

are on "good behavior", or as my wife called it, "Joel & Kathy behavior". That's okay; expect it..it's comming. This is a

time for you to stand strong and realize that you marriage is in this state because you put it there...no on else. So,

be patient, it'll take time to right the wrongs, let the hurts heal, allow the sorrow to fade, and for her to see if

she will allow trust and love to reenter her heart towards you. Please, do not ask for physical affection in any way

during this time; learn to be content with the smell of her hair, the fragrance of your home with her in it, or just the

sight of your beautiful bride who at one time, willingly gave herself to you - she trusted, she hoped, she longed for the

perfect life. She bet on you...she gambled on you...she placed her hopes and dreams in you and your ability to deliver.

 

I agree with TP on this one....your wife isn't psychotic - she is devastated by you. EVERYTHING IN HER WORLD HAS BLOWN UP!!!!!

Don't get defensive....hear me out! YOU WERE HER WORLD...and now it's on the edge of being TOTALLY DESTROYED!...how does

she feel?

Do you think she's a little hurt?

A little bitter?

A little destroyed?

A little desprite?

A little frustrated?

A little confused?

A little scared for her kids?

A little horrified at the condition of her life?

 

It's time to man-up doc!

 

Time to get back on your knees and ask the Creator of Heaven and Earth for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. IT'S FAR

PAST TIME to humble yourself, get out of a "court-room" mindset, and exchange those thoughts for the mind of God. It's time

to honor your wife and serve her...love her...cherish her...and EXPECT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN RETURN!!

 

I am rooting and praying for you HeartMD...you have what it takes to do this and do it well!

 

In Him,

 

In His Image

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Wow, thanks for the tips everyone. Regarding not mentioning Jesus in my above posts, I do agree that I have not been as close as I should be to Him. I have tried to pray with my wife but she basically refuses to be involved in the prayer (she just rolls over in bed and pretends to ignore me praying). I have been trying to set aside my own time with God as well, although my work schedule makes it extremely difficult.

Someone mentioned above that I should be the intiator. I have tried being the initiator, but she could care less. She will never act the same way in return. In fact, she gets more angry when I try to initiate things (such as holding her hand, putting her clothes away from her, etc.).

What makes me hesitant that anything I do from this point forward will change her thoughts about leaving the marriage is the fact that I was

being the best possible husband and she still went and reinitiated contact with this guy from her previous affair.

 

As a professional, I can say for a fact that my wife does actually have major depression and GAD (by DSM criteria) and I think that she does need to see a psychiatrist for medical and/or behavioral therapy. But maybe I should not have mentioned that in the first place since I think it just made her more angry. Although, I am just trying to help her because I do, in fact, care deeply for her.

 

Over the past couple of weeks, I have realized that I am following all of the principles that I learned at the intensive, but when she does or says something (such as contacting her old lover again), this is what triggers me to go back to my old self. I get angry, start manipulating and start making her feel guilty. These are natural responses to a situation so I cannot see how to possibly avoid them.

 

Yesterday as I went through her e-mails, I discovered that she has been trying to figure out how to file for divorce. She thinks that her obtaining a lawyer will scare me into doing mediation (which is much cheaper because battling lawyers aren't involved). Since we have no money right now and she is threatening to use my money for a lawyer, I finally just scheduled a mediation appt. I even found out in the emails that her mother was helping her with the whole laywer searching process. I basically just gave up and gave in because I know what she is capable of doing. And at this point in my life, I can't afford to be paying lawyer fees given that I have hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt. I just can't fight her any longer. She desperately wants a divorce and even yells at me when I say I love her.

 

I will just keep praying as usual and hope she will maybe change her mind during the divorce process or maybe after. Thanks again for all of the great words of wisdom.

(oh, and TP I will get back to you with my homework assignment; I am at work now and don't have those temperament papers on hand)

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Hey doc,

 

Stop saying the words.

 

Instead, love her with ...

your eyes,

your smile,

courtesy,

kindness,

gentleness,

humility,

friendliness,

joy,

appreciation,

gratefulness,

temperment,

attitude,

patience,

surrender,

servant's heart,

willingness to give,

listening ear,

and most of all, with an unconditional heart.

 

Let her know Christ is changing your life...and if necessary, use words.

 

Strength and Honor,

 

InHisImage

 

Wow, thanks for the tips everyone. Regarding not mentioning Jesus in my above posts, I do agree that I have not been as close as I should be to Him. I have tried to pray with my wife but she basically refuses to be involved in the prayer (she just rolls over in bed and pretends to ignore me praying). I have been trying to set aside my own time with God as well, although my work schedule makes it extremely difficult.

Someone mentioned above that I should be the intiator. I have tried being the initiator, but she could care less. She will never act the same way in return. In fact, she gets more angry when I try to initiate things (such as holding her hand, putting her clothes away from her, etc.).

What makes me hesitant that anything I do from this point forward will change her thoughts about leaving the marriage is the fact that I was

being the best possible husband and she still went and reinitiated contact with this guy from her previous affair.

 

As a professional, I can say for a fact that my wife does actually have major depression and GAD (by DSM criteria) and I think that she does need to see a psychiatrist for medical and/or behavioral therapy. But maybe I should not have mentioned that in the first place since I think it just made her more angry. Although, I am just trying to help her because I do, in fact, care deeply for her.

 

Over the past couple of weeks, I have realized that I am following all of the principles that I learned at the intensive, but when she does or says something (such as contacting her old lover again), this is what triggers me to go back to my old self. I get angry, start manipulating and start making her feel guilty. These are natural responses to a situation so I cannot see how to possibly avoid them.

 

Yesterday as I went through her e-mails, I discovered that she has been trying to figure out how to file for divorce. She thinks that her obtaining a lawyer will scare me into doing mediation (which is much cheaper because battling lawyers aren't involved). Since we have no money right now and she is threatening to use my money for a lawyer, I finally just scheduled a mediation appt. I even found out in the emails that her mother was helping her with the whole laywer searching process. I basically just gave up and gave in because I know what she is capable of doing. And at this point in my life, I can't afford to be paying lawyer fees given that I have hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt. I just can't fight her any longer. She desperately wants a divorce and even yells at me when I say I love her.

 

I will just keep praying as usual and hope she will maybe change her mind during the divorce process or maybe after. Thanks again for all of the great words of wisdom.

(oh, and TP I will get back to you with my homework assignment; I am at work now and don't have those temperament papers on hand)

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I was being the best possible husband

 

Really?

 

These are all statements I have pulled from your posts . . . all six of them.

 

- this is what triggers me to go back to my old self. I get angry, start manipulating and start making her feel guilty.

 

- I am starting to wonder why I am even trying so hard to make this work.

 

- I would think by now that she should be initiating something if she was interested in continuing our marriage.

 

- I then get angry that she is refusing to open up to me physically despite me trying 100% to be a better husband. She then says I am guilting and manipulating her.

 

- With this lack of reassurance from her, do you think that I want to try my hardest to be the perfect husband?

 

- I will admit that I have lied to her a few times since we got back from the intensive and have guilted/manipulated as well as verbally abused her on occasion.

 

Seriously? You have posted only six times since the middle of November, and in each post you admit to something that is in some way abusive to your wife. And you really think you're being the "best possible husband?"

 

However, I KNOW that I have significantly improved from my former state.

 

Where? In your head? You think it, so it must be true?

 

What I KNOW is that you're a passive man who tends to stay locked in his head, has no idea how to connect with his wife emotionally, and is trying to convince everyone that you're doing everything this ministry teaches while in reality you're doing very little. I know you. I was married to you. Note the word WAS.

 

Your marriage is in V-tach with no pressure, Doc, and all you've done is give a fluid bolus. You'd better apply those paddles and start some epi real quick, or it's going to die.

 

You still want some sort of guarantee that your wife is going to respond appropriately to whatever you do. As Fiona said, that's not love, that's manipulation. Real love gives with no thought of getting anything in return. Later, when you've brought her some healing, she will naturally want to return your love, but you have to go first. You have to go through a season of being wiling to give her what she needs without getting anything back.

 

You still want your wife to initiate. Where in this teaching did you ever get the idea that it's the wife's role to initiate anything? You are the husband. YOU are the initiator, not your wife. Period.

 

Your wife turns away from you when you pray because she knows in her heart that you are not walking the walk. You are saying words to God, but still refusing to follow his command to love your wife. She's probably trying not to gag.

 

She's hooked up with the boyfriend again because, despite the fact that she tried to give you every chance, you have refused to give her the love she needs. She can't live without it any longer. The boyfriend is feeding her life right now, and you're feeding her death. It doesn't take much to figure out which one she'd rather have. I'm NOT letting her off the hook - in the end we all have to be godly people, and she is responsible before God for her choices. I'm just saying I understand.

 

These are natural responses to a situation so I cannot see how to possibly avoid them.

 

I assume you had at least some psych in med school, right? I mean, you seem quite certain of your wife's DSM diagnoses. And somewhere you learned that patients can learn coping skills, and that there are all sorts of ways to help them learn new behaviors and new ways to respond to whatever life throws at them. But you're a special case. You're a victim of your "natural responses," and there is absolutely no way you can control your words and behavior so that you can love your wife despite whatever you're feeling inside.

 

:puke: :puke: :puke:

 

I will just keep praying as usual and hope she will maybe change her mind during the divorce process or maybe after.

 

If you do not change yourself, she will not change her mind. There would be no reason to.

 

So, Doc, whatcha gonna do? Put your all into a resuscitation effort, or let the patient die?

 

If you are really going to put some effort into this, then start by following the advice Timothy Paul and InHisImage have given you. Lose the ego, take a good hard look at what you're doing, and accept the fact that you're an abusive husband who needs to change. Read everything relating to passive guys on the forum. Post regularly. Get on some calls - there are couple's calls six nights and one afternoon per week. I am a well seasoned nurse in a very large teaching hospital, so there is no way you're gonna convince me that your call schedule won't allow you to get on the phone at least once a week. It's simply a matter of how important this is to you. If you want to do it, you'll find reasons. If you don't, you'll find excuses.

 

If you're not willing to do this - if the little bit you've already done is all you're willing to give to your wife, your marriage, and your kids - then quit whining and sign the divorce papers.

 

I know this has been a pretty strong post, but I call 'em like I see 'em. You are very capable of winning your wife's heart back and restoring your marriage, but I'm not sure you want to. I'm not sure if you want it badly enough to kill off your pride, love without getting anything in return, and learn to control your emotions and your behaviors. To be honest, at this moment I doubt it.

 

Prove me wrong.

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Well said Looney!

 

Heart Md, the worst thing you can do to your wife right now, and consequently your kids, is not quitting. it is stringing her along. Its like a cat playing with a mouse.

 

By the way, a relationship with God is not something you need to do in your breaks. That is legalistic thinking. It's a full-time thing, it's there every time you decide to smile at one of the cleaners in the hospital and say good morning. Its there when you decide to touch a patients hand for a moment, to comfort them. Its there when you drive home and notice what beautiful colours He used that day to paint the sunset.

 

theres 2 types of guys I've noticed on these forums. One set hasn't made a decision to commit, one set has. It's a split-second decision. Both sets of guys make horrendous mistakes and fall down. The guys who haven't commited are defensive, and not humble enough to listen and learn, especially not from a bunch of women. The other set openly admit they get really peed off, if their mistakes are pointed out them, but they swallow their pride, and say "thank-you for pointing that out" because they value the advice, its precious to them. They know they got nothin. They come empty-handed, and receive. and so, they learn about a relationship with God too. We all go to God empty-handed, and receive.

 

Your heart has a mini-brain all of it's own. Scientifically and medically and biblically proven. Listen to your heart.

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Thanks again for the advice guys.

 

To answer Timothy Paul's homework from earlier:

1. - please post your interpretation of what Ephesians 5:25-33 means to you. Read the verses and come back here and apply it to you and your wife.

Answer - I need to be loving and take care of my wife like she is my own body, analagous to how God cares for the church. I really didn't understand the meaning of verse 33, at least on the version I was using (KJV).

 

2. - what ways are you still fulfilling your carnal nature. - Self gratification, pornagraphy, alchohol, tobbaco, etc....

Answer - I have look at porn a couple of times in the past few months, mostly because my wife refuses to even let me touch her at this point. I have no desire to look at porn when I can actually touch her. So I think this is why I have slipped up and look at porn on a couple of occasions. I know this sounds like an excuse but it is the only way I can explain things.

 

3. - read 1 Corinthians 13 out loud to your self. Every place Paul uses the word "I" or "Love" replace it with your name. Come back here and tell us what self discovery you find

Answer - I need to transition from being a boy to being a man so I can more fully provide my wife with charity.

 

4. - at the intensive, J&K did a temperament analysis - please post your results as well as your Wife's. We need to know your challenges and gifts so you can use them to be the blessing to your wife that God intended.

Mine- sanguine compulsive - supine - sanguine compulsive

Hers - phlegmatic - choleric - phlematic

 

 

Just to give an update. My wife and I have been going to mediation sessions weekly for divorce currently. I am so devastated by all of this. It does look like she will be moving to another state (to be near her family) while I do a fellowship about 10 hours away. At this point, I don't even know if I should be still trying to win her back. She has absolutely no romantic feelings or even love for me, which she makes sure to tell me daily. She gets mad if I even accidentally touch her by bumping her in the kitchen, etc. (since we are still living in the same house). I keep saying I love her and am still wearing my wedding ring. No matter what I say or do, she just keeps drifting farther and farther away.

 

Nothing, and I mean nothing, I do is right. For instance, I left the ketchup out of the refrigerator as I was helping to make the kids lunch today. I had just finished using the ketchup and was tending to an urgent matter; a spill one of my kids had just made. While I was cleaning up the spill, I was being yelled at by my wife for not putting the ketchup away after I was finished using it. Then, five minutes later, she left something out of the refrigerator but I didn't say a word. This seems to be a common theme: her getting mad at me for things she does as well on a daily basis. Another incident today involved me trying to help her figure out something on her ebay account. As I walked over to the computer to start talking to her about what the problem was, my son interrupted my talking and she then yelled at me for trying to talk over my children and not listen to them when they are talking. She then refused to let me help her and instead called ebay customer service. I question if I want to be married to someone like this the rest of my life. I am acting loving, kind, and being thoughtful to her every single moment and she is still treating me like this. I know you are all going to say I am throwing a pity party and being passive but I am just so depressed and exhausted with all of this.

 

She did say one thing the other day, which I can't remember if I mentioned or not on this forum. She said: "I just need a divorce right now but if, a few months down the road, we end up remarrying, so be it." This has been the only thing she has said to me that reassures me somewhat. I have been still seeing a Christian counselor on my own and that has helped me a little but I still see no resolution to my marriage in sight. I have been praying every day as well. The divorce will probably be final in about 2 months according to our mediator so I don't know if there is anything else I can do at this point. I really wanted to avoid going to mediation but I found out she had used our tax refund money to go get a lawyer on her own (although I think her dad may have also supplemented the fees, since her parents are all for the divorce). So basically she was going to divorce me, by using a lawyer or by mediation, no matter if I liked it or not. So I have just chosen to go along with the mediation route because in the end it will save me about $25,000, which I don't have currently.

 

I realize that I have made mistakes and am definitely listening (and trying to act out) to everything that everyone here is telling me. But after five months of following Joel and Kathy's advice the best I can, I have seen my relationship worsen, so obviously I am a little discouraged. I will admit I don't go on the calls often because if I go on them at home, I get yelled at by my wife. I have tried to go on them while at work though.

 

Thanks again for the advice. Please continue to pray for my marriage and my family. God bless.

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Hi Heart MD,

 

It's sad to read how things are working out here. Here's what I see, for what it's worth. Stop using porn, you're feeding the enemy. It's ungodly, and really unhealthy for you, and for your own spirit, its just not what God wants for you, he wants HIS best for you, not the mouldy crumbs of the enemy.

 

I see humility in your post here. I don't see a pity party. I see your genuine pain, and confusion, at whats going on. And I see you searching for God. So thats good, its growth!

 

I'm trying to get into your wife's head here. I think that she is very, very, very angry. But its coming out in underhand ways. I think its because she's terrified of her own anger, she's scared of letting it out full force, because she doesn't know what she might do, and because she doesn't feel that you would be able to withstand it. In a funny kind of way, she might be trying to keep a lid on herself, as a protection thing.

 

It must be like living with an active volcano, that's threatening to erupt any day now, and if it erupted, at least you would know where you were up to. But living with the fear of it erupting every day, is worse than the actual eruption itself.

 

I hope I can get across what I'm trying to say in this post.

 

At the moment, I'm having to deal with a lot of anger from my daughter over how my husband has treated her, and me, for the last 10 years.

 

This anger in her has only started to surface in the last 2 weeks. I know my daughter, and I know that previous to this, she has supressed how she felt, because she was protecting me. Over the last month, I have started feeling significantly better, and she has seen this. This is precisely the reason WHY her own anger is now starting to surface. Because she is recognising, subconsciously, that it is "safe" for her to do it. All these feelings she has pushed down, are now beginning to "bubble up" to the surface.

 

Unfortunately, they have been coming out in passive-aggressive ways. I don't think she trusts me enough yet, and doesn't see me as strong enough, and "safe" enough, to let me have the whole thing, and feel the full force of her anger, and fury. I think she thinks I would cave, or shout at her for being rude. (She is a very respectful child)

 

So, in a way, I see it as a healthy thing that she is starting to allow herself to process these things, and let them bubble up to the surface. The energy it takes to keep things down is immense, and its not how God intends for emotions to be processed. Imagine it a bit like a beach ball, and you have to keep it under the water. How much effort would that take?

 

This week, I had a big hoo-hah with my daughter. I challenged her on something, and then we got into an argument. we "fell out" for 2 days, which is almost unheard of, I don't think it has ever happened before. She let some of her anger out, and said she didn't want to talk to me about the way she feels about the last few years, and how she's been treated. This went back and forth for 2 days, and I prayed for wisdom, and cried in bed at night, and she cried.

 

After 2 days, I came to this conclusion, which I partly shared with her.

 

Ok, you're angry with me, and you don't trust me, and I don't blame you. I have let you down, and failed to protect you, and not listened to you. I hope that in time, I can prove myself trustworthy enough, for you to be able to talk to me about the way you feel. But for right now, I get where you're at, and I respect your decision to not talk to me. But you can't have it both ways. You can't decide to not talk to me about stuff just now, yet keep taking potshots at me, and punishing me, the way that you are doing. Well, actually, you can carry on doing that, I can't stop you, but I am not going to put up with it. If you take potshots at me, I'm going to call you out on it, and let you know, that I don't like it.

 

The above is what I basically said to her, and I will share now, my thoughts. My daughter needs to process this stuff, and she needs me. And what she needs for me to be is strong. She needs me to come from a place of STRENGTH.

 

I cannot come from a place of weakness. which, as I see it, might manifest in 2 ways. I either go on a total guilt trip. which would look like this. She shares something with me, and needs me, but I start feeling bad, and going to "Oh I'm so sorry, I've been a failure as a mother, I have hurt you so much, I feel so bad..........." and, out of a false sense of guilt, I let her treat me any old way she wants to, OR, another place of weakness, will be getting on my high horse, and abusing my position and authority as her mother, to tell her that her behaviour is totally unacceptable, and disrespectful, and no matter how she feels, she better not treat me that way! And I give her no room to be human, and hurt, and express her anger.

 

Both of these above ways, are a fear-based mentality, and a total cop-out of my God-given responsibilities as a mother.

 

The position I have taken is totally love-based. It is LOVING to my daughter to put safe boundaries in for her. Over time, she will see, that as I uphold those boundaries, that I am strong, and I am safe, and that I can take care of my own emotions, whilst she expresses hers, and she will be able to let her guard down more and more, knowing that I am trustworthy, and that I won't fall apart, if she lets rip. I want more than anything, for her sake, not mine, for her to be able to get this stuff out, in a healthy way, that will bring her healing, and closure.

 

I see it, that by telling her, "you know what, You can carry on doing that stuff, but I will call you out on it" She still has a platform for her feelings. I'm not legislating against her feelings, as such, I'm legislating against the way that she is going about expressing those feelings, because ultimately, its not good for her. And ultimatley, I only want what is best for her.

 

I'm doing this in very neutral, non-threatening ways. For instance, she speaks to me in a rude tone. I just say, VERY non-defensively, VERY neutrally, "please don't talk to me like that, I don't like it" It totally works, because I am totally coming from a place of strength. I am not saying "you are rude, you are disrespectful , you are hurting my feelings, how dare you" I am saying, almost nonchalantly, and flippantly, mostly as I'm walking away, "Ouch, I didn't like that" then leaving her to make her own mind up about it.

 

I'm hoping, that by "shoring up" the unhealthy way that she's expressing herself, in passive-aggressive ways, and not giving it any room, that eventually, she will have no choice, but to face up to how she really feels, and let me have it!

 

This may very well mean, occasions where she is screaming and shouting at me, and chucking things across the room, and crying, but not letting me near her. I would see this as a totally healthy thing, and not in the slightest bit disrespectful or rude. It would be very hard for me too, but I'm her mother, I have to be able to take it, and be that safe place for her to be able to vent.

 

I just wonder, whether any of the above is food for thought for you?

 

So, for instance, she has a dig at you for leaving ketchup on the side. You say, NON-DEFENSIVELY, in a neutral voice " honey, I don't like you having digs at me all the time" and you walk away. She WILL follow you. Blazing mad, and furious. You don't argue, you already made your point, you just stand there and take it, and let her vent, and support her emotionally, and the way she FEELS. remember this, you don't have to agree with her point of view to agree with her feelings. The way she feels, is the way she feels, no matter how irrational she may sound to you, her feelings aren't wrong. From this, what she learns, is that you won't run away, or attack her back, when she gets angry. Does that make sense? And from that, she might feel safe enough with you, to get angry about other stuff, and get that stuff out too.

 

Maybe the way your wife is acting, and the digs she keeps putting your way, is her "testing" you? to see just how much you can take? She might be dipping her toe in the water, so to speak, to see if its safe to jump in? To see if you're strong enough to be able to handle everything inside her that she's holding in? Or would you run for the hills?

 

Have you done the apology letter? Has she ever mentioned it?

 

I'm glad you came back and posted. I will certainly pray for you both.

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What Fiona said. The only slight change I'd make is that, for now, skip the part about telling her you don't like her making digs at you. Frankly, she doesn't give a rodent's posterior what you do or don't like. Just quietly put the ketchup away, and - this is important - do not have an attitude about it.

 

I agree that she has a LOT of anger inside her. You put most of it there. It's like she's been run over by a car, and she's in ICU with a ruptured spleen, a left pneumothorax and a shattered femur - and YOU were the one driving the car. She IS critically injured right now, but it's emotional, and it's coming out as anger. You can't blame her.

 

The thing you need to understand here is that the opposite of love is not hate. It's apathy. When she stops yelling at you, you're in trouble.

 

I question if I want to be married to someone like this the rest of my life. I am acting loving, kind, and being thoughtful to her every single moment and she is still treating me like this.

 

Well, in the end it's your choice. However, please be honest with yourself and us. I'll bet she was not "someone like this" when you married her. She became like this because of how you've treated her. And you never did respond to my previous post - in every post you've mentioned something you said or did that was abusive, and yet you think you've arrived as a husband.

 

Please stop blaming your wife for where you're at. Please tell us what YOU need help with, because until you accept the fact that you need to change, we aren't getting anywhere here.

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Hey HeartMD,

 

I am hesitant to post. You have so much info from LT and PF that I hate to throw more on you until their info is processed. However, being that I have limited time I should take advantage of the opportunity when I can.

 

So please read their posts - take it in and then read mine.

 

The thing about Ephesians 5:25 that most men struggle with is that "vision" of what laying out life down for our wives as Christ did the church. So many men will tell me they will take a bullet for their wives. Reality is, that is not what God is implying.

 

Being male - our nature is compiled of carnal sins. These are the sins that kept the Israelites out of Canaan. Lust, greed, sloth, etc . So in our roles to become Christlike men, we must "die" to these flesh needs. - This is what God is asking us to do. As a "man" we must come to realize that we try to fill our needs in worldy ways - instant gratification. But we know when Christ went to the Cross for you, He had no idea if you would accept His message - there was no instant gratification for Christ. God told him, He must do this so He did. Just as God asks, and I say "asks" because you do have a choice (free will), you go to the Cross for your wife. You have no idea if your Wife will respond back. No idea if she will open her heart back up to you. No idea if she will forgive you. Christ went first with the faith that you will receive His message. You must go first and have faith that your Wife will receive your message. And the reality is, she may not because just like you, she has free will. So when you say you are not sure if you should continue to pursue her, I infer you are not getting the response you want or expect and are getting frustrated. - And to this emotion, you must die. Your wife will sense this. For most of the men that actually do win their wives hearts back - consistency is the number one factor that helped them succeed.

 

You wife has lost faith and trust - at the moment she will believe that your sole purpose for doing this is to win her heart back and if you do, you will revert back to your old self. It is your actions in the face of the adversity that will show her the true change in your heart.

 

If you have a chance, I have a literal translation of the verse 25-33 on my website www.ephesians525.org. I think the KJV says wives should reverence their husbands. First the word reverance was not "invented " until the late 1300's. Everytime God tells a man how to love his wife, He uses the Greek word AGAPE. Agape is defined as unconditional sacrificial love. When God tells a wife to love her husband, He uses the Greek word Philias - which is a conditional love. (this is consistent through out the Bible - not just in Ephesians). So God is telling the wife, "if" the husband does verse 25-32, then he has earned her love and she should respond with that conditional love. So as we always say, the wife is the responder. So at this point - you have not presented your wife washed by the Word, Holy and unblemished, so she is not called to respond back with love to you. See how that unfortunately ties back to your frustration because you are not getting the response and gratification you expect?

 

Next - your need for gratification. Notice how you are giving yourself an "out" or excuse. You are blaming your wife for looking at porn. As guy, we must learn to eliminate the "buts" in our lives. We did this , but it was because..... - That is flat out denying our accountability. Look at Genesis 3:12 - notice how Adam blames the woman and God. It aint his fault - well kind of funny that the sin does not enter the world when Eve eats the fruit, but when Adam eats the fruit. And God did not tell Eve not to eat the fruit, He told Adam. So who is responsible? Yet Adam pushed off the responsibility.

 

Regardless of the reason, if you are still entertaining carnal needs, you are undermining your efforts. - Both on a spiritual front and on the marital front. You can not learn to agape love your wife, if you engage in those activities. Your poor wife will never be able to measure up to the illusions that industry plants in our brains as to what "sex" is supposed to look like. It isn't very good for your self esteem either - you can't measure up to those guys (well - I am being presumptuous). The porn industry uses "fluffers" to make the guys look like those super studs. - its all hollywood to make money. And again - its that gratification thing.

 

I had picked up from your thread - that you were engaged in self gratification. This is an area God is challenging you in. Your flesh is screaming to have its needs met. God is telling you He will meet your needs - trust Him.

 

Because you have so much to read, take in and process, I'll skip 3 & 4 for now. But I see great potential in your temperament and how that will relate to meeting your wife's needs. One other quick note - you are going to have to win back your inlaws hearts, as much as you are your wife's. As they see you change, they will become your allies. But for the moment, realize that all the hopes and dreams your inlaws had for their daughter are crushed. Their dreams included a loving husband that would take care, cherish and love their baby girl.

 

May the Peace of our Savior rest with you tonight - as you do this, you are glorifying Him, and you will be rewarded.

 

 

Love....TimothyPaul

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