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You're welcome. 


That's what J wants you to think, that you're expecting too much.  But---It's right for you to expect your feelings to be cared for by your husband.  You are worthy of being loved.  You are worthy of being cared for by your husband whether you are tired or sad or happy or angry or lonely...especially when you're sad or lonely or angry.  You deserve to be loved for who you are, not for who he expects you to be which is always a contradiction anyhow.


Once upon a time he promised you, so you have reason to expect what you do!

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Thank you, Crystal.


This has been a very trying time.


Friday night J saw Friday's posts and read into that that I wasn't wanting to ML. That is NOT what I had said. I will repeat, it is NOT that I don't want to ML, I just simply want an emotional connection to go along with ML. Without an emotional connection.....relating outside of sex......I feel like a sex object to take down off the shelf and return to the shelf at J's whims. That is NOT love. That is sexual exploitation. I WANT TO BE LOVED BY MY HUSBAND!!!!!!


Is that too much to ask for? He told me last night that I make it hard for him to love me. Why? Because God gave me a need for emotional connection?


We went grocery shopping Saturday. HE commented, at the store, that he felt we were not connected. He didn't know what I wanted (groceries) and was in the way....as he later said. All day there was an underlying tension. Is it just me?


#1 daughter had surprised us with a visit in the morning. We actually went shopping while she was there (unsuccessful attempt to get to a store before they closed). She left before supper. We had a good visit.


We had a weiner roast for supper. J and I went out and roasted marshmallows together for smores. That was nice. We spent a little non-sexual time together.


A large part of the day I had been feeling like I really didn't want to go to the other house for the week and was really struggling with the idea. That little bit of time roasting marshmallows was all it took to be ok with the idea. Maybe there is hope for connection. There was still tension, but at least there was a ray of hope.


I had gotten on the call late, and then #3 son called. By the time we got off the phone, I was just ready to call it a night.


I don't remember what started the Sunday morning "unloading" that J mentioned on his post. I think it was probably the sexual inuendos. Again, "everything" has to be about sex. I like sex just as much as the next person, but I don't gravitate around it. If I am trying to get ready for church, for which we are running late.....again, I just want to get on the road. I feel like "every" conversation has to have the sexual overtones to it. "Every" touch has to be sexual. I use quotes around "EVERY" because I am aware that I am exaggerating in my frustration. It isn't "every," but it is out of balance. Sometimes I just want to be a person!


I pointed out that he had gone down his wayward path "because we never could talk....he could talk to them." He connected emotionally with them. Why can't he with me?


Well, I pray for you! OK. I appreciate that, I need that, but that does not make emotional intimacy.


Due to Sunday's schedule of events, J and I took the car, and the kids left a few minutes later in the van. I drove so he could read. We talked a little.


There was a potluck dinner after church. I was able to talk with the guy from church whose wife left him. I gave him J & K's phone number. Who knows if he will call. He didn't seem to show much hope that she would come back. Nor did he show much interest in trying. He seemed more or less resigned to the fact that this is how it is.


Our boys and others from church were going paintballing. After they left, I went back to the fellowship hall to get our things together to leave. I noticed that J was in the kitchen helping with the dishes. At first, I thought that was nice of him......and then it hit me that he doesn't volunteer to help me, why is he doing so here?


The boys ended up not needing to drive on their trip, so the girls took the car home, and J and I took the van with needing to make a quick stop on the way home. I drove so he could read. We talked a little more....the dysfunctions of our family will right themselves when he becomes the man that I need him to be. So he asked if he was the cause of their dysfunctions. We did not get that question answered because we were at our destination. We never got back to it.


Going to our weekday house we got in after midnight, and he was out the door for work by 6 (I think). Around 4:30 he texted informing me that he was staying late on a particular project and didn't know how long. A little before 8 he texted that he hoped to be out by 7. OK....is that AM or what? He didn't realize it was so late. He left shortly after 8.


When he got home, he was telling about the project. The problem was such and such, and he couldn't leave the other guy to handle it on his own....he couldn't leave him hanging! Boy, did that hit me wrong. I didn't say anything about it then (kids in room)....but I did last night. He couldn't leave that guy hanging, but he can leave me hanging!


So we have the dishes at church....we have the guy at work. Is there a wife around here????? Nope, don't see her on my list anywhere!


The kids and I had already eaten and I had cleaned up the kitchen. We were sitting in the living room having just finished up Bible study when he got home. He warmed up his plate and went in and sat by me to eat. He finished eating, got up, washed his dishes, and went to the bedroom. Well, goodnight! I went in to find him on the forum. I had the brief thought of getting on the call (as in Monday and Wednesday nights are the nights we are supposed to be on!) but didn't even feel like it. I went to bed.


So last night it is that I make it hard for him to love me. He thinks that I feel like I would be happier at home. I said that I feel like he would be happier if I was at home. He said he could be a hermit. He could go to work and come home, live on a little food cooking only when he wanted. He didn't contradict my statement and say that he would miss me. Why would he? If I wasn't here, he would be free to work as many hours as he wanted and do whatever he wanted. No strings attached.


He didn't know how he is supposed to respond to me. He didn't think I even wanted him to touch me. He's not supposed to respond. He's supposed to initiate. Wrong words! It wasn't just arms around me holding me so we could talk. It was arms around me for a few seconds and then the sexual touch. When I said that I didn't mean that I wanted sexual touch, it was immediately like two very strong like poled magnets. He just repelled away from me.


He doesn't know what I want from him. I said I didn't either. Earlier I had said to the same statement that it's in my posts that he reads over and over.


I am at a loss. I do not know what to tell him. I don't think it does any good to tell him. I've told him and it goes nowhere.


He has asked what I want for my upcoming birthday. I couldn't remember the little thing that the kids and I had come up with last week. His thought was a vacuum sweeper for the new house. NO! That is not for me; that is for the house. I don't remember if it was Monday or Tuesday morning when he called, I suggested our waterbed that has been on my wish list for a couple of years now. We had one from day one and decided in 2011 to try a regular mattress when the waterbed sprang a leak. I want the waterbed back. His response to my request was: I think we have more important things to get. So why bother to ask if my wants are not to even be considered? Maybe we can't afford it now. OK, I can deal with that. But to flippantly disregard my request.


As I stated above. It doesn't do any good to tell him. As Looney has told him, he is not providing a safe place for me to tell him what I am feeling, so he will have to deal with reading it here.


What do I want from him? To be loved for who I am. To be cherished. Not to be treated like a sex object. To be valued. Maybe someone else can say it to him better in words he will understand. He and I obviously speak different languages creating a communication barrier.


I said since our intensive he has connected emotionally with me so I know he can do it, but he has stopped.


When he prayed before leaving for work this morning, he prayed for everything.....but me! :cry:  :mad:


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I'm going to pick out from your above posts "what you want from him".


1. An emotional connection -- that is, relating to you outside of sex (which will make you feel loving toward him, which will naturally lead to sex).


2. Volunteer to help you the way he does for others, but with even more enthusiasm!


3. Call you from work several times a day -- just because he is thinking if you -- also to inform re change of plans.


4. When he leaves a room where you are, you want him to acknowledge you before walking away.


5. You want your husband to TELL you he would miss if you weren't living in the same house with him.


6. You want him to hold you when you are expressing your hurt, the way you hold your children when they are hurt (non-sexually). (This most likely will lead to sex anyway.)


7. No flippant disregarding of you when you voice a desire.


8. You want your husband, when he prays with you, to thank God for giving you to him, to tell God how much he loves you, and to ask Him to bless you abundantly while he has to be away at work.


Your husband and you both played a part in creating any dysfunctions in your children -- same as the rest of us. My dysfunctional behavior was to NOT speak up for our sons when I saw they needed some specific attention from their dad. Also not speaking up for myself had implications for them.


Have you been speaking up on the calls sometimes, 1love?


God bless you!

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Wow! Thanks, MJ. I think you did that very well.


Yes, we do speak up on the calls at times. We are trying to do better at that. I will say that it seems to me that it is easier for J to speak up when things are going good rather than when we need help. Past experience shows that when we need help, and I speak up; he goes into silent mode. That is something he needs to work on. He needs to see that the moderators are there to help us see out of the four walls of our box so we can get out of it rather than there to beat us up because we haven't gotten ourselves out of it on our own.


J worked over some last night. We had supper all but on the table when he got here. I had already gotten all the prep dishes done, so it was basically down to our individual dishes. Everyone was taking care of their own dishes with just serving dishes/utensils left. So we left the kids to take care of finishing on cleanup, drying, and putting away dishes. We went shopping for #1 daughter's birthday (today!!) presents. He did a little shopping for me as well.


It was very good to spend time together. It was a good night. We did not make it on the call. The kids had been on my phone. I was going to take it with me, and we could have gotten on the call on the way back home. It needed to go on the charger! Thanks guys! When we got back, they were using it again....making plans for today.


I am feeling MUCH better today!

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I was going to take it with me, and we could have gotten on the call on the way back home. It needed to go on the charger!



Maybe someone needs to buy you a car charger? ;)


He needs to see that the moderators are there to help us see out of the four walls of our box so we can get out of it rather than there to beat us up because we haven't gotten ourselves out of it on our own.




Yes! There is a distinct difference between correction and criticism. That's one of those areas where he needs to go with what he knows to be true rather than how he feels.

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Actually we have a power inverter to use in the vehicles. That uses the regular charger. Much cheaper that way. However, it is at home. Plus the c. lighter doesn't work in the car, so it wouldn't have mattered either way.


My plan is to get on the call tonight.

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What a weekend. Yes, MJ, we did get on the call Thursday night. We were not on at the very beginning. The help for the couple was already in process. I found a lot of it very appropriate for our situation as well. We also got in mid-stream on Saturday's call. I believe Thursday's was about the husband always interrupting the wife's conversation and not backtracking to give her opportunity to complete the conversation. Been there far too many times. It tends to make me shut down and shut up!


When Kathy finished with the couple on Saturday, she opened the lines again. I asked J if he was going to just announce that we were there. He seemed very hesitant to say anything. I repeated to just announce that we were there. He responded with I guess "you" can. I didn't accept that and said that he needed to do so. I thought he indicated that, yes, he would do so. However, he seemed very relieved when Kathy started chatting again....to take up time, not speaking with anyone at this point.....and he never did announce us. We stayed with the call until Kathy ended it.


Yes, I could have announced us. But that isn't the point is it? I am seeing now as I am typing this how it is falling in line with a big frustration that I have.


            Be a man and take responsibility, don't expect me to do everything!


I want J to take responsibility for doing things.....to show me that he sees it is important to do, to not dump everything that he doesn't want to mess with on me.


Here is a current thing: In arranging trash pickup for our new house, I called (why not him?) the wrong service. Two are available, and I thought I was calling the cheaper one. I offered to call the same day and cancel that one and set up the other one. He said it was ok, just leave it. Pickup is on different days and this one would work better for us. Well, the service was not being at all quick about getting the trash container delivered to us....even though they were charging for it. He made multiple calls to them and was ready to cancel the service but kept giving them more chances to redeem themselves. This all started in April. He was going to keep them for the three months that I had had to pay for up front and then switch. OK. We got another 3 month bill. without an adjustment for the length of time for the container delivery as he had been told there would be. I called (why me?) and they made the adjustment. I paid the bill. New bill: past due amount for the adjustment and rates will likely be going up. He said he would call and cancel it. I forgot about it because he was going to take care of it.


I will take some responsibility for the bill being paid late. I had apparently put it with the other bills to bring to the new house to sit down and pay the bills. However, I already had October bills paid so was not getting that stuff out until time to start paying November bills. I found it on the 29th....after it was due. I had forgotten about it.


Yes, I know he was at work, but he has a lunch break and other breaks. He has time to take care of it. So I texted a picture of the bill. His phone apparently does not let him zoom in on pictures like mine does. He couldn't read the phone number. I texted it to him, along with other pertinent info, and the number for the other service.


I never understood why he said he didn't get a person. The number doesn't go to a person. Well, I know it does. I think on the 30th he did get through to a person and took care of the container past due charge issue.....but didn't cancel the service!???? He wanted to make sure of various details on the other service first. OK 31st he calls and confirms those details but doesn't sign up with them.????? Meanwhile this bill is still not paid and the service not cancelled.


We were trying to get things loaded on Friday to leave, and he was trying to get through to take care of the bill and cancel service.....he couldn't get a person. We get on the road, and he is still trying.....getting very frustrated because he can't get a person and everything else going on with it (I'm patiently not saying a word on the outside, but turmoil building on the inside). Finally, he tossed his phone down because he couldn't punch buttons on his phone and drive. I offered my phone. He doesn't know how to use it. I put the number in and gave him the phone. He got a person and then was disconnected somehow.....whether he did something, they did something, or just lost signal, we don't know. I called back. Same thing. He was through with it. I was frustrated with it. I called and was going to do it myself.......Office closed at 4. I mean, I am talking seconds after he had a person on the line! So it sits till today.....if he took/takes care of it.


He said to figure out the bill for service through last week and call the phone pay number and take care of it. I figured it out and gave it to him. He wasn't going to do it while driving. I know he was insinuating that I should call and pay it. I just set it down and said I wasn't going to call. By the way, he couldn't get a person when trying to call because he was calling the automated phone pay number rather than the number I had given him! He caused his own frustration by NOT using the info that I had given! That sounds like a common problem doesn't it.......listen to the wife! She knows what she is talking about!


So later he called the automated number and paid what I had figured out plus added on the late fee which the bill said "MIGHT" be added on if paid late rather than having the possibility of it being dropped when he calls to cancel.


I know that is a crazy event, and I kept my cool about it. He knows nothing of my frustration of the process until he reads it here. It wasn't worth my getting bent out of shape over. It wouldn't change the outcome. It didn't need to ruin our night or our weekend.


So why do I even bring it out now? It all comes back to his needing to take responsibility of things and not expect me to do everything.


I also say this to point out that this is an area that I need to work on for myself. In the past, I would likely have just called and taken care of it....after all, he is working.....as he did point out to me.....something like he doesn't have time to take care of it because he works (as in I don't work so I have all the time in the world to take care of it so I should). Let "Mommy" take care of it. No, "Wife" isn't going to take care of it.


I think I have mentioned this somewhere before. He use to plan our getaway trips and dates. He got away from doing that. I appreciate being asked where I would like to go so that he has my input. But it seems that he "refuses" to make a decision on it and wants me to make the decision.


The current thing "on the table" is his vacation which is not scheduled yet but needs to be taken this year. I would like to go see my aunt in Florida....and maybe Joel & Kathy while there if schedules work. The question....do we take the kids or go alone? I think both would be nice, but obviously we can't do both. I don't want to make that decision. I won't make that decision. I do know that time is running out for even getting a trip scheduled....with the holidays, I will need to be home and not in Florida.


On a  better note, we had gone to a friend's fall party Friday night. All but our youngest daughter ended up staying the night. I can see now that I am going to pull the last topic back into here. He has been needing to go to our sister's-in-law near Chicago, but due to our crazy and ever-changing weekend schedule....and bad habit, puts off to the last minute to make arrangements with her. There was a possibility of going this last Saturday, although I did not want to go then due to #3 son being home from school. As it turned out, since most of the kids stayed the night, we couldn't get away soon enough to go anyway. We could not leave youngest alone and would need the space on the return trip so could not take her.


I would like to try to get together with John and Susan when we are up there, but I need to know how to get in touch with them. If anyone can give me directions for doing so it would be appreciated. It is now planned that we will be going up and back on the 16th. J is also wanting to meet with a friend that he use to work with. It will be a very full day. But....it is being planned out in advance rather than the day before or the day of.


It really puts me on edge not knowing who is supposed to be where when.....very much like last night. With dental and vision appointments on Tuesday and Thursday, I didn't know who if any of us were going to be coming to the other house until it was time to load up. I don't do well with that. So we started out well after 10pm, and J asks if I am awake enough to drive. Not really, but why? I could drive while he slept! I said I would find that abusive. Why? Because I am supposed to be able to stay home on Sunday night! I don't gripe and complain about leaving on Sunday night because I know he would rather have the shorter drive Monday morning. But this midnight driving is for the birds!


What happened to the better things???? Saturday morning I unloaded the car and noticed that my houseplants were still out on the front porch. They should have been brought in 3 or 4 weeks ago.....before lows in the 20s. #2 daughter had mentioned probably 3 weeks ago that #2 son had said something about them.....neither of them bothered to bring them in. I was pretty ticked. J and #3 daughter helped me get them in. I then sat on the piano bench and retreated within myself.


J came in and asked what was wrong, did he do something that upset me? No. At least one if not two of those plants were what I had left of my Daddy's funeral. I was not doing too well. I will be surprised if very many of the plants survive. He held me. He was so good.


Later in the afternoon, I felt like I just needed to get away from everything and go see my mother. My last couple of stops by there were at most 5 minutes....not enough. He was making pizza for supper, so he told me to go and spend some time with my mother. He also had "ordered" (in a good way) me to stop doing the dishes before this. Dishes the kids had not managed to get done before we got home. I was simply trying to get enough room for him to make pizza. The kids loaded the dishwasher then and were supposed to do the rest, but I had to send them in Sunday afternoon to finish them.


My mother and I both appreciated the time that J very lovingly gave me approval of taking. That sort of makes it sound like I have to have his permission to go see my mother which is certainly not the case. I usually try to make a visit when I am going shopping to combine trips. This was a trip just to see her and then back home.


It really doesn't do my posts good to leave my computer untouched all weekend. I apologize.


Sunday morning, getting ready for church. Here comes the sexual advances, as usual. And as usual, I was unresponsive. But this day was different. He asked what I was thinking. I said I was thinking that he hadn't read my post which I knew he had. So then he questioned what I was talking about, did I have a new post? No. So I told him what I was talking about.


Before we left, I tried to be a good helpmeet and suggested that he could tell me of his desire, validate my stress feelings of getting ready, and make a suggestion of a rendezvous later in the afternoon or night. This would let me know what he would like to do. it would let me know that he cares about my feelings of being late to church (or wherever) because of sexual advances that are not going to go anywhere, and it gives us both something to think about all day.


The anticipation of something is a big part of the enjoyment of the event......thus when you fail to plan there is not time to build anticipation.

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When you describe the sexual advances while getting ready for church, it makes me wonder if it has to do with the getting ready and dressing that have visual impact?  If that's the case, then what you are sensing is that he is making choices that are immediate, visual and mostly self-gratifying. Sex is really fun when spontaneous and unplanned, too, as I am sure you know.. but in the different situations you are describing, I am sensing an overall lack of thought and planning for you or your schedule which shuts you down because you can sense that you are just being fit in between the lines instead of deliberately pursued, romanced and cherished.


Here's the part though where you can help your whole family. Try taking a few minutes just for yourself each day and do some inside check-ups. What is important to you? What do you need? How can you treat yourself special that day? Plan to do one nice, small self-indulgent thing for yourself each day to practice loving yourself. Because the degree to which you love yourself will affect the ways that your family also loves you. Then find ways to communicate that ahead of time to your family. There's something that affects people differently when we are loving and respecting ourselves instead of just waiting or expecting for them to do it because its the right thing to do.

I am just now getting to that place. Just yesterday, I did a series of small considerate things for my fifteen year old daughter. She took them and went her busy way. I know she's a busy teenager and I shouldn't expect too much.. but.. I walked into her room and I said:  (very politely and calmly) : i love you and i enjoy doing these things for you.. I expect some love back.  Her eyebrows went up and she hesitated and then said: "You are right. I'm sorry."  

Later in the day, when I had to correct her, she was much more polite and responsive than she usually is. She's starting to get it because  am starting to love myself more and communicate that in different ways.


One of the ways I loved myself recently was by re-doing my bedroom before I re-did hers. She knows I have been promising her a re-do for a long while, but with all the sacrifices of giving up my bedroom over and over for renters to try and save our family home and make money in the last four years, it just felt right to put me first. She watched the fun I had, and watched the creative ways I saved money.. she knows how that  excites me... I had fun and the fact that she has now seen me thoroughly and wonderfully re-decorate three bedrooms  has actually given her hope and inspiration when it is her turn. And I originally thought she would be hurt or offended if i put myself first after promising her a re-do.

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Thank you, 4evr. I would say that a majority of the Sunday morning times that I am already dressed, and he hasn't seen me get dressed. Granted there are times that don't fit that description. Those times I can understand....although it still puts us in a time crunch. And, yes, spontaneous times are very good......when we don't have a schedule to be somewhere at a certain time.


I would say you have identified it pretty well. In talking with our daughter yesterday about decorating for Christmas, I said that decorations can't stay up year round (as she would like).....they wouldn't be special. Christmas is a special time of year, but if it becomes commonplace, it loses that specialness. So bringing that around to this, if "sex talk/play" when we don't have time to go full circle with it becomes commonplace, then when we do have time it isn't so special. That specialness is where I feel the joy of being pursued, honored, romanced, and cherished. When it is commonplace, it is nothing more than giving a dog a pat on the head as one walks by.


Thank you for helping me see this and putting words to it. There are times that I do feel the specialness of that touch. But there are a lot of times that I feel like the dog getting the pat on the head. How is he supposed to know how I will perceive his touch before crossing the line?????


I think you are right on with doing something for myself, too. Many years ago, while shopping with my MIL, she said I needed to get something for myself. She saw how I always get for others but never anything for myself. I still don't get too much for myself......I let J do that. But the concept is something that I need to do. Perhaps that is why my trip to see my mother on Saturday was so meaningful to both her and myself. I made that trip not to go shopping but to see my mother. That was for her. That was for me. Yes, I need to start doing things for me. And that is fun things....not washing all the dishes because I don't like having dirty dishes sitting on the counter. Maybe it is leaving them because I don't want to do them! Well, I have added this paragraph in so that will make more sense in a few paragraphs.


I wanted to clarify something on my post from yesterday. The broad description of what I see I need to work on on myself is the idea of rescuing others. Looney has mentioned this. I see it. If I remain a rescuer, I don't do anyone any good. The net result of such behavior on my part is that I feel used and abused while allowing others to not grow up. So, yes, it is a "kind" act that I am doing, but it is causing problems by doing it. It is hard for me to sit back and not do the thing. In this case, make the call about the trash service.


Last night was another stretching point for me. Supper was not ready when J got home which was perfectly ok. He laid down to take a much needed nap because of our extremely short night. He had given me a very proper greeting when he got home. All was good. However, when it came time to do the dishes after supper, he got up from the table, took his dishes to the kitchen, and went to the living room to get on the computer. Our daughter was busy in her room. That left me with the dishes. I stood at the sink looking at them and decided to load the dishwasher rather than handwashing, but that still left plenty to handwash.


I was getting frustrated at the thought of this.....do dishes at church......get on computer at home. It just didn't work for me. I went into the living room and told him this isn't working. He just looked at me with a "what did I do?" look. I very calmly pointed out that I was in doing dishes, and he was on the computer. I said I was ok with his nap while I was fixing supper, but I needed some time now. He said he was going to look up something about daughter's phone for her. OK....she and her phone are more important than I am. I went to the kitchen. He came in to help. Thank you!!!! But he saw I was loading the dishwasher (and questioned if I was using it), so he sat at the counter (it is too cramped of quarters to have 2 working on loading) looking at something. No conversation. No helping by putting leftovers away.


I finally asked him to wipe the table, which he did. Then I started putting leftovers away. He came over and helped hold the electric skillet while I scraped it into the dish. Then he went back to the living room. At first I was just going to leave the handwash stuff until today, but decided not to. So I washed the rest of the dishes by myself.


By the time I finished, the call had already started. I went in, sat by him, and called in. I found it interesting that Looney told the couple that was on that it is the husband's responsibility to initiate getting on the call, reading the books, watching the dvds, etc. Did I miss something? I thought the call was very good: initiating, task oriented vs. from the heart, and touching the wife with the idea of blessing her rather than touching her with the idea of getting sex (which makes her feel like a prostitute) - have to give physical touches that don't lead to sex.


I could fully relate to the wife: husband starts to turn around and do well, she starts to feel better, but then there is no more progress, in fact, a backward move, so she is afraid of being hurt again and not sure about opening up and taking the chance of being hurt again.


This last weekend, overall, was a very good weekend.....but there have been so many lately that haven't been. I long for the time that all the time is very good. Little by little we will get there.

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If I remain a rescuer, I don't do anyone any good.





It's tough, though, isn't it? I think the hardest thing is that, many times, we are ultimately the ones who suffer if he doesn't do what he needs to do, and so we make the choice to take care of it. My ex used to be really bad about paying the electric bill. He'd call me from work and tell me that I had to go pay it right now or they would be shutting us off at 4pm. The emotionally healthy thing to do would have been to let him deal with it. However, I was in an all electric house with 5 children under 10. I did not have the money to just take them and go to a hotel for the night, which is what I would have preferred to do, so it was either pay the bill, or have no heat or ability to cook. Not only that, I would have had to deal with his anger, because in his eyes it would have been my fault if the power were shut off. So we do it, and he gets used to us doing it, and it snowballs.


Remember how we say that we all marry at our level? The part of J. that avoids responsibility recognized the part in you that tends to be a rescuer. That's part of the reason he was attracted to you, although it wasn't a conscious thing. Guys who avoid responsibility almost always marry women who tend to be overly responsible, because that enables them to keep on doing what they're doing. Someone has to break the cycle, and it's pretty rare for it to be the man. After all, he's not the responsible one. :roll:


When you stop rescuing, he will have to suffer the consequences of his actions. Then he will have a choice - he will either become more responsible, or he will leave you and find another rescuer. But here's the thing - rescuing will not make him love you. The best it will do is make him stay, and then you'll have the same thing you've had up till now - a marriage to a man who doesn't love you. And I think you've gotten to the place where that's just not enough anymore.

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It is very tough indeed! It's hard to sit on my hands and not do whatever, and then it is hard to deal with the backlash. Sometimes I think I wish I could just throw responsibility to the wind. I know deep down that I don't want to do that because I don't want to be an irresponsible person. It's not so much that I am trying to take on responsibility for everyone else. If they are irresponsible with their things, that's their problem. But, as you said, Looney, I have to pay the price for the irresponsibility of those around me. Case in point: my house plants that my irresponsible children left out. It didn't hurt them any. I was the one that was crushed by it.


I don't even know what to say about last night. All I know is that on our trip back from dental appointments (which J has not even asked about!) I was being bombarded with thoughts of his past. I needed to be held. What I got when we got to his job to pick him up was my not putting the car in gear waiting for a hello kiss. That's not really a big issue because I didn't have to wait terribly long, and I anticipated there would be more to come when we got home.


We stopped at the grocery store on the way. The kids got the car unloaded. J showed me the sweatshirt he had gotten from work because of a record production day. He started to walk off, but I stopped him to get a long hug. All was good, well, getting better because I was getting a hug. Then he started saying for "someone" to find the hamburger to brown for tacos. I know he was telling the kids, but usually "someone" or "somebody" means me. Hello! I have a name. I want to be someone to him, but that is not my name. I was still in much need of being held but pulled away to fix supper.


For some insane reason I thought he might come help or at least sit in the kitchen with me. No, he went to the couch and got on the computer. Time to eat....#5 son was being his usual smart alec self with his sister. I asked why he always has to be such a smart alec. The three kids were sitting at the table, I was standing beside the table, and J was in the kitchen maybe at the sink. Son asked me in a very sincere tone, "What's wrong with you?" He recognized something wasn't right. Good for him. But where was J in the recognition process? I said, "What's wrong with me?" "Yes." "He (pointing towards J in the kitchen) always comes in and gets on the computer." Nothing more was said.


The kids and I did the dishes. J changed the thermostat for the furnace and did something to daughter's dresser and maybe went back to the computer; I really don't know. I went to the dining room and got on the call while checking emails and daughter doing math. I was very encouraged by Elizabeth's words and stayed on for the first couple with Kathy. During that time, J came by, gave a quick kiss, and said goodnight. Then went into our bedroom which is at most 4-5 feet away from where I was sitting.


About 10 minutes before I got off the call, he texts me asking if I have written him off. I sent back "Why?" He never answered that. After getting off the call, I went to bed. I don't remember who spoke first. I told him I felt like he was sulking and having a pity party. Then I told about the praise report that had been given on the call. Husband started to go in bad place, wife pointed out that they had talked about that, pointed out that he loves her and doesn't want to hurt her anymore, and then he turned it around and said she was right. And I pointed out that J loves me and doesn't want to hurt me anymore.


Well, he heard me say about him being on the computer, and I retreated to the dining room. I didn't want to be around him.


Aaargh!!!!!! Son noticed something was bothering me. Where were you?! To retreat from the living room, I would have had to been in there to start with. Wife is the mirror, don't clean your face by cleaning the mirror. If you don't like what you see, check yourself out. 


Why did you text? And not answer mine? Your text is full of mother/son. Do you have any idea how those kind of texts make me feel?




Like you are the one through with me. You are asking if you have been bad enough yet for me to say I am through and throw you out because you don't want to be the one to call it quits. So are you through with me?


Pause.......No. But he was reading the forum and wondering if Looney was right about him.


What did she say?


That he was too dumb to get it.


She did not!


Well, didn't know if he would ever get it.


(Well, I may get it for posting all this, but I don't care anymore. We need help!!!!)


So what were you reading?


He had been reading my post from yesterday morning concerning the night before.


OK, I didn't even remember the night before nor what I had posted ..... I had over 150 miles on me that day, 5 of us for dental appointments, and very nearly mowed over by a semi on the way back to pick him up.


So he was reading how he watched me load the dishwasher, etc.


You missed the whole point of my posting that....it was about MY growth! I had three options: 1) leave the dishes and go to our room to be by myself, 2) do the dishes and fume because he was with the computer instead of me, or 3) tell him what I needed. I chose the more grown-up option. In the past, I would let people walk all over me and would choose one of the other options.


I suggested that instead of running off to the computer to ask me if I need anything. If I don't, then ask if it is ok to get on the computer to read on the forum.


Ask permission to get on the computer? Isn't that mother/son to have to have "permission?"


You didn't hear me.....ask if there is anything that I need you to do for me. If there isn't, see if I am ok with his getting on the computer to read on the forum. And tonight, yes, I did need something!


What did you need?


To be held!


(So finally, he turns to hold me.)


I told him how I didn't have a good trip back, how my need on the way back was to have him hold me, how I wasn't ready to end the hug to fix supper, but I pulled myself away to fix HIS supper. How I feel deserted, abandoned when he goes off to spend time with the computer rather than with me.


He asked why I didn't have a good trip back.


Because of the thoughts.


What thoughts?


Pause.....about your past.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this have been a perfect time for a LOVER apology? The only thing he apologized for throughout the entire conversation was sending the text. He shouldn't have sent it. That's it.


Well, holding only works so long with him until he pursues other physical contact. So again, I am faced with options: 1) let him have his way with me while I pray through and hopefully ward off any resentment that would potentially take root, or 2) tell him I just need held. I took care of myself and finally mustered up enough courage to tell him I just needed held.


pause.......so you're not interested in anything?


Well, if you care more about your selfish wants, that's one thing. But if you care about what I need, I just need to be held. So he held me for a little while and said goodnight. And that was that.


Somewhere in the conversation, I asked what his focus is. He didn't know. I said his focus should be "How can I bless my wife?" That is what he needs to keep at the front of his mind ALL the time.


Did he at all mention how I praised him in my post(s) about the weekend? How he was there for me with the plant issue? How he was there for me to visit my mother? How overall the weekend was good? How little by little we will get there?


NO! He did not. 


Sidenote: I asked him this morning about the trash service. Apparently he called Monday to cancel the one. Good. But why did I have to ask about it? Why not tell me since it concerns me? He hasn't called to start the other yet. I trust he doesn't wait too long!


This morning, he commented that he didn't sleep well last night. I said he should have prayed. He said, "I believe I did pray for you before you came in."


Well, I'm glad he knows that because I didn't until he told me this morning.


When he kissed me goodbye this morning I told him good morning....as in he had not bothered to do that!


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J. is so wrapped up in a shame-based mentality that he hears put downs when none are intended. I said that to him on his thread. Unfortunately, there is nothing anyone can do about that. He has to change that mindset himself.


Like you are the one through with me. You are asking if you have been bad enough yet for me to say I am through and throw you out because you don't want to be the one to call it quits. So are you through with me?




I know I've said this before . . . I am very afraid that this is where J. is at. He doesn't want to do what he needs to do to grow up, but he doesn't have the testicular fortitude to say so. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that he will stay with you as long as you are willing to accept what he's willing to give you. If you choose not to do that and end the relationship, he will be able to tell himself and everyone else that it was not his choice to divorce. He cannot handle being honest with himself. This is exactly what my ex did.


I really believe that, if J. honestly wants to be successful, he needs more help than this ministry alone can provide. For some guys, just do it doesn't work. He might want to consider scheduling some private time with Tim to work through some of these issues. Tim doesn't do private counseling for free, but I know that he will work out payments. It will be less expensive than a divorce . . . unless, of course, that's what J. really wants.

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Looney, can I just say that you are pretty awesome!


J had to work over last night and had gotten home after call starting time. After he had finished eating, I asked if he was going to speak up on the call. Well, he didn't know what to talk about. I suggested that he ask Steve how he managed to break out of his "bad husband behavior" and became a good husband.


He changed clothes and laid down for a bit. He said to give him a few minutes. Ok, but I hope the call is still going on. All this time I was sitting on the edge of the bed, still on the call with it on speakerphone. You guys had been chatting to kill time, and then you directed some questions for Steve....along the same line of what I had suggested J to ask. God is so good.


I will ask you to help me out here because I heard him say "point three" and I'm left thinking that I missed "point two." I want to be sure to get it all down. This is what I remember: 1) know that you and wife are on the same team, and 2) know who you are in Christ. I'm kind of thinking that perhaps the other point was such a good bridge between the two that I didn't recognize it as being a different point.


We stayed with the call until it ended (actually I was dozing off at the end). I'm sure J could have spoken up at some point. Perhaps he would have if others had not been right there to keep the call going as it turned out. I was content that he was listening.


Early, long, and busy day today.


Thanks for all your help!

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You're welcome. I was thinking about you guys - Steve said that you had spoken up, and I'm thinking Well, J's probably not gonna talk, so . . . ;)


I don't remember all of the details of the conversation, but I know we talked a lot about changing your mindset and choosing to accept instruction as just that - instruction that will help you, rather than a put down. Maybe that was it? Frankly Steve, Melissa and I have had SO many conversations along these lines . . . I love to pick his brain, because then I can hopefully help someone else . . . that they all kinda run together, ya know? :roll:


I just hope J. will actually apply something he heard last night.

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I know exactly what you mean with conversations running together. I think that accepting instructions as instructions probably was the other point and definitely a good bridge between the other two. Thank you. And I did recognize that you were thinking about us in your conversation. Again, thank you. And I also hope and pray that he applies what he heard.


Yesterday was exactly as I said it would be.....early, long, and busy. J's alarm went off shortly after 4am. I'm not sure why, but it was probably better that way. Not being able to go back to sleep, I showered, started breakfast, dressed, made the bed, and popped briefly on here. Then I served up J's breakfast, got the kids and my breakfast ready to cook, got the kids up, and took J to work. When I got back I cooked our breakfast, we ate, and were out the door by 7am. And my day has just started!


The three kids plus #2 son had eye appointments. They were actually able to work me in with them which frees up a little bit of time on Saturday morning when J's and my appointments are/were scheduled for. Now after leaving his appointment, J can take me out for breakfast rather than wait for my appointment! ;-)


A way too quick trip to say hi to my mother and brother who was visiting her, pick up pizza to eat on the way, stop by home to change clothes, and go to #2 daughter's college (my alma mater) for their inauguration ceremony for their new president. My interest in being there was that our daughter was singing in the choir for the ceremony.


At the dismissal time from that, if I had left immediately and stopped briefly by home to change, I might could have made it in time to pick J up from work. But I still had to stop and get hunting licenses and deer tags for two youngest sons. I was not able to get them on Tuesday when #2 son got his because I didn't have SS numbers with me. I didn't know they were needed, #2 son was using last year's license to get this year's and didn't need his.


That turned out to be a crazy experience that took a good hour to accomplish. #4 son's would not process - birthday didn't match up. What? He has never had a hunting or fishing license and does not have a driver's license. How can it not match? #5 son's processed just fine. So we were leaving the other one for me to call about today. During check-out, I questioned about the gal not asking about the county. Glad I thought about that. It had automatically put in that county (same as college) which is not the county they will be hunting in. So she had to call in to their help line to see what to do about it. While taking care of that, she asked about the problems with #4 son's. I had to talk with the help line lady as well. As it turns out, they had #2 son's birthday and name with #4 son's SS number. How????? That was just crazy. He has had a fishing/hunting license for 6 or 7 years. I am guessing that he has just used "last year's" license to get "this year's" each time, which means this has been wrong for some time.


Fortunately, that lady was able to take care of the problem so I could go ahead and get #4 son's license. I need to call back and give #2 son's SS to fix his file. It was a crazy mess.


On to home. I had decided to let the kids stay so J and I could have some time alone. #2 daughter was going over to #1 daughter's for supper (their usual Thursday evening schedule) before going to orchestra practice. She checked with her to make sure it was okay for the other three to tag along. Change clothes, they got chores done, unloaded car, and leave. They pulled out just a couple of minutes before me as I texted J to let him know I was leaving home, and I stopped to get the mail.


After getting some distance down the road, I happened to think about #3 daughter's school books and checked the back seat. There they were. Great! Did she conveniently plan this? She is behind on her work and is always "going the extra mile" to avoid doing her schoolwork. I tried to call them so they could stop, and I could give her the books. No answer ---- except for voice mail. So her phone is still on silent from being at school.


I raced to catch up to them. They had already gotten on the interstate. I passed and was able to get their attention just a mile or so before the first exit. They called, and I said they needed to get off with me. I was not a happy camper.


I got out, got her books, and gave them to her. I also told her I felt like getting her out of that car and she could just go with me.


Cortisol - 5,0000       Oxytocin - (-100)


I'm just not doing too good here!




I was just getting ready to call my MIL to let her know about #1 daughter's birthday party tomorrow night when my phone rang. It was J. I hadn't planned on telling him anything about this before picking him up.....but since he called!


I also asked him to call his mother (If I had called, it likely would have just raised the cortisol even more. I love her dearly, but it is impossible to carry on a conversation with her and then get off the phone.). He said he would.


Instead, I returned #3 son's call from earlier during the ceremony. We were on the phone until I got off the interstate (50 miles??).


About three miles before getting off the interstate, the gas light came on. So I had to stop for gas. I knew there was not any milk at the house, so I decided to run in at the grocery store. I also wanted to check on a couple of sale items that another store that has the same sales was out of on Tuesday.


I got to the house around 7pm......12 hours after leaving. What a day!!


While I was going through all of this, after his eye appointment, #2 son had contact with his boss lady (landscaping business). It was too wet for them to finish a particular job that they hoped to finish up before taking a 2 - 2-1/2 hour (1-way) trip to pick up some trees. I think they had to unload her trailer before going. They left about the time that I was getting home before going to the college. In talking with J after getting out of ceremony, he told me that son had contacted him. They had broken down and were waiting to be towed. Son called me around 8:40pm to let me know that he was finally on his way home from boss's house where he had left the van.


I was very pleased when J had called me enroute to let me know I could take my time. He had gotten a ride and had supper in process.


Just tried to proof my post before posting and it got lost.....get to rewrite....just lost it again! :mad:


As I had said.....


When I got in, he met me at the door with a smile and a kiss, and helped me get the groceries to the kitchen. He fixed a salad to go with supper while I put the groceries away. I noticed he had his computer out and was on the forum. I told him about my trip to the college.


One of the speakers had mentioned that as students come to college they develop maybe 25 to 30 friendships that will last a lifetime. I didn't do that. Sure, I had friends, but none that have lasted a lifetime. As families started, contact stopped from both sides. I said that I had devoted myself to our relationship. He was my friendship to last a lifetime. When he said I put the children above him, well, that just isn't true.


With this conversation and reflection, I began to get sad. When we sat down to eat, he noticed. He asked what was wrong. I shrugged my shoulders. He prayed for me as well as our meal.


After eating, in cleanup he asked how long I was going to be down. Just snap out of it. I don't remember his exact words, but that is the essence of it. So I put on a "plastic smile." Here, is this what you want? A wife that says everything is okay when it isn't? The mask didn't stay on long. I cannot be fake. He asked why I was making a joke of it. I said life is a joke.


He got back on the computer (forum??). I checked emails, played solitaire, and listened on the call. He was listening also.


When we got off, I told him I didn't like what he had said earlier. I said I felt like our relationship has always been more important to me than to him. He apologized for saying it.


Computers were shut down by this time so could not check what he was referencing, but he questioned something that either Looney or 4evr had posted on either his or my thread. I know, not much help. With what he was saying, I suggested that he has not shown that his "pain of remaining the same" has gotten worse than the "pain of change."


For example, Looney's suggestion of/and doubt of doing the rewriting of my post. Do you know how long that would take? So what if it takes an hour. More like 2!


So what! The point is that you are not hearing my heart. In your messed up way of thinking, you see the surface and run with it. You don't listen/seek to hear my heart. The purpose of the exercise is to hear my heart.


Well, that was pretty much the end of it.


I know he has read my posts......and he still hasn't asked about out appointments this week. Does he not care????? :|

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Whew! I think I need a nap after just reading about your day! I have certainly been there. -_-


There is really not much more I can tell you. Either J. is gonna do this, or he's not. Based on the lack of effort so far, my guess is not. But obviously he can change at any time.


I really think you're down to . . . how much longer are you going to put up with this? And that's your choice too. I'm not trying to push you into doing anything you're not ready for. But I've been around here awhile, and the things I'm seeing in J. are the things I generally see in men who give up.


I really, really hope he proves me wrong.

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I think your husband needs to SPEAK on the calls, give updates, and let the moderators speak specifically to him (and you, of course). He "can't" hear what you are saying right now. He may happen to catch something from them once or twice.


You need a little break from the explaining struggle.

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Whew, when do you take a break just for you?


Please re-read this and ask yourself why you went to such effort to fix your daughter's problem? This seems like you rescued her?? I have done this all of my life to all of my kids and both of my husbands. It just isn't good! The results are not good. I am learning to stop this.. and my last child, a teen girl is starting to get it- that i am not going to do it. She is responding nicely. She's becoming more responsible.



After getting some distance down the road, I happened to think about #3 daughter's school books and checked the back seat. There they were. Great! Did she conveniently plan this? She is behind on her work and is always "going the extra mile" to avoid doing her schoolwork. I tried to call them so they could stop, and I could give her the books. No answer ---- except for voice mail. So her phone is still on silent from being at school.


I raced to catch up to them. They had already gotten on the interstate. I passed and was able to get their attention just a mile or so before the first exit. They called, and I said they needed to get off with me. I was not a happy camper.


I got out, got her books, and gave them to her. I also told her I felt like getting her out of that car and she could just go with me.


Cortisol - 5,0000       Oxytocin - (-100)


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I don't normally post on someone else's thread. But I just wanted to point out... you've been posting steadily since about the beginning of August. Asking the same questions-- and so is he, btw.."do you still want me around?, are we done?, etc" -- for the last 3 months.


So I have to ask.. what changed in July or August? Think back carefully. Was it simply a loss of focus? too much computer time? change in routine or job demands?


You may find your answers. May God reveal the true nature of the battle.

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