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Actually up until coming back from our intensive, J did take care of his own meds. I felt like I was shut out of that part of his life, all parts if truth be told. I watched week in and week out as he would "throw" his meds together and pack his clothes for the week of travel. It was never pleasant to watch. It was like he was a time bomb looking for a place to go off. This side of the fence, I guess I maybe see what was driving all of that .... the sin that he was living in.


He could certainly take care of it on his own. All he would have to do is to pull the paper out that has everything written down on it. Most of the bottles are even labeled on the caps for ease in filling the box.  When he had his heart surgery in 2009, I took care of it for awhile. I did ask him at the time when he would be able to take over on that again. That was part of my attempt to get him to start picking up on responsibilities again.


It was a totally different thing after the intensive. I was trying to establish some connection between us, even as minute as meds. Knowing his stress level of doing this mundane task, I asked to do this for him because I wanted to relieve that stress some. If he has less stress to deal with, then he can deal with the marriage issues. It is not a rescuing; it is relieving pressure from one point so that growth can happen in a more needed point.


I am comfortable with doing the meds. It is one of the ways that I can be a blessing to him. And isn't an OHM about blessing each other?!


By the way, he has always packed his own clothes. I've shown him many times how to fold the shirts. He keeps coming back for that lesson, but manages the job most of the time.

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Not a problem, I'm glad you're here to help me see the things that I miss.


I feel absolutely miserable today. My voice decided to take a leave of absence last evening and has yet to reappear. J said he can win all the arguments now. HA HA!!! We don't have those going on very much of the time.


I just wanted to touch base. I think I am going to try to take a nap. Hopefully I will feel better when I get up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

No, I haven't dropped off the face of the earth. I am still dealing with the end of the flu bug that has run rampant throughout our family. J succombed to it on Friday which took a major toll on our plans for this week. What a way to spend his vacation! Originally, we were to go visit my aunt in Fla. and meet up with J & K while there. Instead, we are at home. #2 daughter was to have a doctor's appointment this afternoon (pre-surgery physical). My being here would allow me to go with her on that. I rescheduled that appointment for next week since she is down with the flu as well. I will certainly be glad when it is all gone.


This has not been a good week. I haven't been on here due to health, busyiness of Thanksgiving, and poor internet.


Weather permitting, Crystal and I will be getting together on Friday. That will be the highlight of my week. I am looking forward to meeting her.


My quietness is being stolen away now with the household coming to life. I will come back later.

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  • 4 weeks later...

What a stupid fool I am. Anyone that was on last night's call knows that J is up to his old tricks again. God help us all. I guess this needs to be moved to the section of husbands working against the marriage.


It is going to take a bit for me to regroup and sort things out here. I got a LOT of answers to the hell that I have been going through since May by going through two of his secret e-mail accounts this morning.


I have been silent here for awhile intentionally to see if he would actually post or not. He would only look to see if I had posted anything.


I may go back and pick up some of the things that I had planned on discussing here.....but what is the point?


Weather has kept Crystal and me from meeting up, but it looks good for this Friday. I'm looking forward to it. I need it.


Need to leave shortly to take #2 daughter to dr to get her stitches out from her surgery of the 19th.

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I had every intention of reading my thread (at least from May on) before posting. I think I started on page 13 catching the end of April and have gone through page 15 the beginning of June. All I can say is "Wow!" I am going to finish reading to the end but felt it was time to post.


There have been things since I last posted that should be here. I may get back to them. The biggest would be Thanksgiving Day and then vacation week. I had told J at the time that maybe he would be able to understand what happened when I posted about TD. I obviously have not gotten that done, but it is still very clear in my mind. At the time, I was still processing through and could not write about it. Also, vacation week right after had me not on the computer. I will need to at least get those things here.


What got my thread moved here.....


Late Saturday afternoon, J had gone to church to replace a couple of support posts for the hand rail on the steps leading up to the building. I will go on record that because of the ticked off attitude he was displaying (even though understandable), I felt uneasy about his solo trip there because a road to one of his former APs is on the way. If he had not had the attitude, I probably would not have thought anything about it. I have been very on edge for a long time as you all know. My feelings concerning that were not necessary....so he says.


While he was gone, I got on his computer to check emails and play solitaire. I was using his because #2 daughter was using mine. For whatever reason (the Lord's prompting I would say), I clicked on the "recent documents" and found a can of worms.


There were three pics listed there: "catherin" which went nowhere, "me" which was a pic of himself - one he had posted on his trash before, and another one - a very blury pic of some guy that I didn't recognize.


Well, when he got home, I asked about "catherin", and he didn't know. Then it was off of a hollywood news page. He had downloaded it for whatever reason and had deleted it. He didn't know why "me" would be there. He had been looking through pics on computer but didn't know why it would have a Dec 13 (?) creation date. Pic is probably at least 5 years old. He had no idea who the guy was. None of this adds up.


Sunday morning I got the story....well, this story. He has been texting maybe 4 pre-intensive female non-sexual friends to see how they are doing....since September. The unknown guy is a pic he was going to post as himself to start up an account but had not done so.


Before leaving for church, I texted Kathy and told her I was through. Everyone wasn't ready to leave and we were already late, so I was going to take the car. I really just didn't want to be with everyone. He got in the car, and went with me. I think he didn't like my driving. I don't care.


He drove on the way home. Kathy and I texted. We got on the call with Brian and Charlotte. Kathy got on and talked and prayed with us. We got off and talked some more. Then I found out about a secret email account which he refused to give me access to. He would delete it himself; he didn't want me to see it. I texted Kathy, and they called.


It was a long and turbulent night. He just about left and went to the other house rather than waiting till the morning to leave. Truth be told, in the afternoon, I told him I was through, pack his stuff and get out. I would have my house, and he could have his. I never wanted to see him again except in court. When he was getting ready to leave in the night, I said if he left without giving me access to the TWO secret accounts that he did not need to come back. He had gone back and reactivated an account that I think Joel had closed at the intensive.


He wanted to wait and we could go through the accounts together. I questioned what if I wanted to go through them alone. Before he left Monday morning for work, he did give me access. I then spent the rest of the morning going through everything that I could in the two accounts. I found the pic of "Catherin" sent from a dating service. I found the unknown guy pic sent to someone and opened account with it displayed. I found the "me" pic sent to 3 or 4 others.


All totaled I think I counted 24 contact infos. Two or three of those may be two infos for same person. I found that contact on one account started in mid-May. I believe this would be the pre-intensive people....both sexual and non-sexual. The new account had been started July 29 (two days after son's horse accident). In this one, I found what he called "just a game." Invitations for "her" to come to house because he was alone as well as suggestions that he go to "her."


One was an "enjoyed the hugs and kisses." When I checked the calendar, this was when he went Christmas shopping for me. So sweet! So they hugged and kissed in the parking lot. He admitted that he had gone to see her a couple of months earlier (about 30 miles from other house). They met at a store (parking lot?) where they kissed and he fondled. This is all just so sick. But, hey, as he said this morning, that was just one time that he fondled. He has not had sex with anyone other than me. Don't I just feel so special! NOT!!!! Well, he told her it wasn't going to go anywhere. He would not be seeing her again.....You got that right! He even apologized to her for his inappropriate behavior. Oh, he has manners! Then when digging a little deeper, it is that she said she wasn't interested because of the distance before he told her it wasn't going anywhere.


One email was "I wish I was single so I could date you."


So he also has a FB account which we haven't taken care of yet as well as a dating service that he hasn't given me access to. Both of those will be dealt with. It was supposed to happen today, but he is busy with son currently.


I confiscated the computer. He is not permitted to be on unless I am right beside him. "How am I supposed to get on the forum then?" Excuse me, you weren't getting on anyway!


I also found that through this continual string of conversation since mid-May that he was having contact at other house while I was there, at this house on weekends while I am here, or better yet while I am at church on Sunday night with the kids.


Some of the emails held comments about his trying to be a good husband but questioning how well he is doing! Really????!!!!!


I have had some interesting conversations with some of these people as I sent messages from his accounts to "leave my husband alone bit--." Am I proud of using the term? No, but that's just the way it is. So, consequently, I have been called that in response to which I have pointed out that I am not the one advertising myself on-line. And comments about my not being woman enough to handle him. I just laugh it off. I kind-of, sort-of, but not really feel badly because of one pre-intensive non-sexual contact that he has never met....oh my, all he ever did was talk about you and the children, and how much he loves you. You need to learn to listen to him and cut him some slack.


Then I started to paint a picture of reality for her. She knew he talked with other women but did not know that he slept with them. That is such a wrong term. Why is it called "sleeping together?" It certainly isn't "sleep" that goes on! And I put some numbers to the other women. He has always been such a gentleman to her. And he would have been trying to get her in bed if they weren't so many states apart. I painted a picture of my sex addict husband for her. I pointed out that he feeds on that contact with other women so she is not helping him by allowing the contact. She said she would not have contact anymore.


Another one turns out to have been married to a guy that couldn't keep himself in his pants. All he did was talk about how much he loves you. He helped her to see why her ex-husband did the things he did. She is not interested in a married guy.


Oh, with some of the email times, he was getting up after I had gone to sleep and getting on. He said he doesn't remember doing that. The times don't lie. And I was seeing 1AM, 2AM, 3AM......and he dares to say anything about being tired and worn out for work! The later times were more so when I was not around. He also had one sent during work hours. I wonder what the boss would think about that? Maybe it was break time.


In looking through my thread it is very easy to see where his activity started. And he asked so many times if something was wrong. I wasn't responding to him. Are you through with me? It all seems so crystal clear now. I mentioned to him the long work hours at the end of April - first of May, then he digs up husband #2. I saw in one of my posts that I had written that I felt like #2 had pushed his way back in.


So where do we go from here?


Sunday he commented about the pain of change vs. the pain of remaining the same. I said I was there. That is probably when I said he needed to move out. The pain of remaining the same is far too great for me. I will not do this again.


I have been home for most of December. The first week was his vacation, so he was here too. I think I was up there the next week, and since then have been home except for one night that we met and went Christmas shopping and then to the other house. I came home the next day.


I have been having some pain issues in both upper arms and numbness in right hand fingers and thumb. It has been building probably since October sometime. I went to the chiropractor on Dec. 18, and he has me on a very rigorous appointment schedule through the 13th that it isn't worth my going up to the other house. (Treatments are working wonders....I feel much better. I do wonder if it has anything to do with the underlying stress of this garbage. Sunday was much better. Christmas night I was about in tears because of the pain when going to bed. Is the change due to the manual adjustment I received on Friday or because this junk came out? Or both? Who knows.)


That is said kind of tongue in cheek. My marriage is worth the extra driving.....but J was working on destroying the marriage. Plus, I was beginning to feel very uncomfortable up there. I didn't like the indescribable feelings and needed the security of home. Now it is plain to see why. I also needed to be at home to get ready for Christmas.


So I wasn't really sure that I even wanted him to come home yesterday for New Year's Day.


He knows he blew it BIG time. He doesn't know why he did what he did. He wants our marriage to work. He has a not too funny way of showing it.


I don't know if he is sincere or giving me a snow-job. I just don't know what to believe.


I didn't want to be touched, kissed, or anything. I did allow it, and eventually knew that it is what I needed. So after seeing the new year in and telling the kids good-night, we talked for quite awhile. He was behaving himself and finally conversation turned to he did not plan of ML (didn't think I would want to have anything to do with that maybe for weeks or months and understood that). I said, but what if I want to? Here I am kissing and telling again. We did ML. I am trying to figure out why I wanted to. The best I can come up with is the need to be wanted in the face of the rejection from the garbage.


I am still very confused. The line is drawn in concrete (thank you, Eeyore).


He is to do a new apology letter for me, one that we actually go through rather than make a list on the computer and let it sit for almost 2 years and not talk about it. He is to post that on his thread and get help to make sure it is right and then get it to me on Saturday. So, of course, he asks how he will be able to do that without the computer. I said he could write it out on paper and be ready to type it up when he gets home on Friday. Get it approved and to me on Saturday. The only leeway will be if no one here is available to help him on it. The computer stays home with me.


Oh, I have the DVD set here. He was going to take it to watch but when I would not release the incarcerated computer they were left. I will point out that there is a tv/dvd up there. It is finicky at times but usable. He likes being able to jump to a different place as he can on the computer but not on the other. Sounds like a "my way or the highway" thing to me. Not grown-up! I didn't push it then as I didn't figure he would watch it anyway on Monday night.


I have also provided him with 2 notebooks to journal his Bible reading and prayers in one and books and dvd's in the other. He is to list the passage read or dvd watched, what it was about, what it means to his life/issues, and any questions he has about any places that didn't make sense.


There will be active progression....or else!


He says he is glad I found out and called him on it.


Now on to read more of my thread.....I guess I'm not so crazy after all.

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You are not crazy.. You are seeing the pattern.. it's absolutely understandable that you did ML and why... Just make sure you are safe when you do! And it does all fit together with when he started to quit trying.

Just as an aside, immature men who say they want the marriage.. they have a different agenda than the woman who wants the marriage. They want the security.. the roof over their head and the home to come home to.. women want the relationship.

So instead of asking him if he wants the marriage, ask him if he wants you! You are worth the work.. worth the pursuit and worth the difficulty, the bumps and whatever else leads to an OHM.

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Thank you, Looney and 4evr.


Before I posted last night, I thought there was something else I had wanted to add but couldn't remember it. Here it is: he had also gotten back into porn.


Now it is not that I was just sitting back expecting everything to be ok. I had asked him several times about porn, sg, and contacts. I always got a "No." I hadn't been regularly checking his 2 email accounts that I knew about, although I did a few times. Coming back from intensive I checked them daily. Sometimes more than once a day. I got to where I felt like I was becoming obsessed with it and had to stop that just to get passed the junk. Of course, that was not until I was seeing change.


But how am I supposed to check accounts that I know nothing about? I am sure that I checked the known accounts during this time. And, as I said, he isn't dumb.....he cleared his call history on his phone before getting home Friday just in case I got his phone. He said he had done that a couple of times. He admitted that he had put his "parking lot contact's" number in his phone, but he had already deleted it.


As it turns out, the contact with the ex that couldn't stay in his pants is a substance addiction counselor. She said that they had talked both personally and professionally. Her un-official suggestion is that he has a fear of intimacy. She offered to stay in contact with me to help me as she has been there. She also said she isn't helping him....he knows what he needs to do. Also, that he wanted to talk about his issues. Well, I don't think any of us here have seen that he wants to talk! She said to let him talk to whoever he wanted to talk with about it and love him unconditionally.


So last night I asked him about their conversations. I also told him of her suggestions and that it doesn't resonate with me. He thought about it a bit and remembered that she had told him things that I should have found in the emails, but I didn't. Then he remembered he had saved it in a file....he needs to read through it again. So he has been given lots of tools to use.....he just doesn't pick them up!


He wanted me to get his computer out so he could find the file and show me. It was late, and we had not gotten through the book reading that he said in the morning that he wanted to discuss before going to bed. No computer; it will keep. He read a section of the book (Broken Children Grown-up Pain) and we talked a little about it. He was exhausted from the work they had done so it was not a very long discussion. The big thing here is that he was talking to ME about it.....rather than someone else. The someone else when confronted tells me I need to listen to him. How can I listen to him if he is talking to them and not me????


I mentioned to him (and I think on here somewhere as well) that it was like he was having an affair with me. After so long, it was time to move on. After intensive, he told about one AP....he left her because it scared him when he started to have feelings for her. So is that it? He was starting to have a deeper connection with me, and he got scared? That fits with fear of intimacy doesn't it?


This is all just too crazy. I will say that since his getting home Tuesday evening, I have noticed more of husband #3 showing through than I have for some time.

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 Here it is: he had also gotten back into porn.    Yes, he was showing all the symptoms.


. The big thing here is that he was talking to ME about it.....rather than someone else. The someone else when confronted tells me I need to listen to him. How can I listen to him if he is talking to them and not me???? You are right about this.. part of the dysfunction...


I mentioned to him (and I think on here somewhere as well) that it was like he was having an affair with me. After so long, it was time to move on.he uses women to get his immediate emotional/mental/physical fixes like a shiny new toy. Eventually the toy loses it's 'new' attraction. He won't talk to you in a way that gets your attention and creates intimacy, because he's only after his immediate  gratification, need or answer... not connection.


After intensive, he told about one AP....he left her because it scared him when he started to have feelings for her. So is that it? He was starting to have a deeper connection with me, and he got scared? That fits with fear of intimacy doesn't it? Yes, that's it..... in the beginning of your initial recovery, right after the intensive, you (and the program) were the shiny new toy. as well as the thrill of the hunt and conquest that gives him a feeling of  personal value.


 ...since his getting home Tuesday evening, I have noticed more of husband #3 showing through than I have for some time. Yes, because his game has been uncovered and his distractions have been taken away. He's been there.. just hiding because he's in self protective mode.


I noticed that IP spoke on another thread recently about the differences between remorse and repentance Look them up and commit them to memory. They are important and she did a great job of clearly spelling out what they are. For me, true repentance occurs when we are horrified about the pain we have caused another and the disconnect we have created and until we experience that we have not even begun to make lasting changes.

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So is that it? He was starting to have a deeper connection with me, and he got scared? That fits with fear of intimacy doesn't it?



I disagree.


Abusive men have a sense of entitlement that nonabusive men don't have. Around here we use the term selfishness, but the more I work with people in this ministry, the more I believe that selfishness isn't exactly what it is. The abusive man honestly believes that he deserves to have all of his emotional needs taken care of by someone else.


The abusive man thinks that relationships are about getting his needs met, period. He will deny this with his last breath, most of the time, but deep inside he believes that marriage is about making him feel good. He does not care about meeting your needs and does not believe he should be required to do so. He wants the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility.


So pulling away from you, or the APs, is not about fear of intimacy. It's that as the relationship progresses, you and/or the AP begin to require something of him. You begin to expect that he will also take you needs and feelings into account and to do something about meeting them. His sense of entitlement kicks in and screams No way!  Different guys handle this in different ways. In J's case, he moves on to someone else so he can have another "honeymoon" period where the relationship is all about him. One question I always ask is . . . what is this dysfunctional behavior doing for this person? What need is it meeting? We don't repeat behavior that doesn't work. Porn and affairs are meeting J's need for sex without responsibility.


Do I think there's a component of fear there? Absolutely, but I don't believe it's fear of intimacy. It's fear of change. It's fear of really facing his abuse - which abusive men don't often do, even if they admit it verbally - and learning how to meet someone else's needs for the first time in his life.


One of the things I have always found interesting is how these guys have the ability to wall themselves off from the effects of their actions. Let's face it - you don't do things like that to people when you really understand how it makes them feel. So part of the package is to minimize and excuse his behavior, because he has to be able to live with himself. I'm sure that in his mind he has a "reason" for doing this. Again, he probably won't admit it verbally. He's gonna say what he knows you want to hear, but he has excused his behavior in his mind in order to continue it.


Do I think J can change? Absolutely.


Do I think he will change? Sadly, no, at least not right now. As you've pointed out, he has a lot of tools available to him, but he refuses to use them. That is not a man who really wants to change. That's a man who's sorry he got caught, because now you might divorce him and his needs won't be met.


If I were in your shoes, I would cut off all contact for at least a few weeks. Let him have the life he's asking for. If he decides he likes it . . . well, there is nothing you can do about that. Trying to make him love you and be faithful to you is futile if his heart's not in it.


If, after a few weeks, he says he wants to save the marriage, he needs to be on a VERY tight leash.

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Thank you, 4evr. I went back and re-read the last couple of pages (and dozed a little) and was pleasantly surprised to see a response so soon. I have seen IP's post and, yes, it is very good. I do need to memorize what she said.


I remember telling him more than once in this time period that I felt like the little Cupie doll again......that new toy.


This is all just very overwhelming me right now.


One of the things that the addiction counselor said was that secrecy feeds this thing. I have wondered, and mentioned to J, that maybe it is time to tell the kids what all has gone on. I don't know. But I do know that in the limited conversations I have had with a few of his contacts that I have laid it out for them. I know I mentioned this earlier. He had painted such a wonderful picture of himself, and I am trying to blow that out of the water. I am being very straight forward. I am letting them know that we are dealing with a sex addict. I am not doing this to get revenge and make him look badly. I am doing this so they will maybe see this not as a bit--y wife who is mad at catching her husband, but as a loving wife that truly does love and care for her husband and is trying to save him from himself. He was keeping them secret from me but also was keeping the real him a secret from them. You don't give an alcoholic alcohol, and you don't give sex addicts women to talk to!


He said that this is the longest time that he had gone before relapsing. In the eight year time period, he had tried many times to stop but always ended up falling back into it. And he is disappointed in himself that he fell now. He doesn't know why he did.


So maybe I am beginning to see why I haven't shed a tear with this. Two years ago I was destroyed with all that happened. I cried and mourned over the death of my marriage. It was all against me.


Now I see that it isn't against me. It is against him. I am personally very hurt over what has been done this time around. I don't diminish that in the slightest. But the bigger thing is what has been done to him through this. Before I get called on a statement I made above.....I cannot save him from himself. He (with God, of course) is the only one that can do that. I see that. This is where the fences that IP has talked about come into place.


I have thought about taking classes to become a counselor but have not pursued that thought. Right now I don't know if I could handle that anymore. I also think that when we DO come out on the otherside of this thing that I will have enough personal experience to make up for a LOT of class time!


I have a new outlook now. That has to be a God thing. Tuesday #5 son and I went to J's work town to pick up something that a co-worker had given him that was too big to go in the car. On Monday, if time had permitted, I could have very easily gone to the other house and emptied it. I think I maybe even mentioned that possibility to J - that I might get my things out. So after meeting J at this guy's house and getting stuff loaded, I pulled out with J behind me. I thought about pulling into the grocery store so that he would be able to make his turn to go back to work (which would be the same turn I should make to go back home) and not see me go the other way to go to the other house.


On the way up, I had decided I was going to the house for a few reasons. Probably the main reason was to determine if there had been anyone else there or not. He had said that there hadn't, but do I believe him? I also wanted to get my crosstitch projects. I was undecided about what else I might want to bring home.


Well, I decided to make the left turn and didn't care if he saw me or not. It wasn't long before he called and asked what he would find left in the house when he went after work. I said I didn't know, was I supposed to be taking things out? I finally said I was getting my crosstitch to which he said he could have brought it home for me.


Well, I got a few clothing items, my crosstitch, and the quilt my mother had given me which is our bedspread up there. That night I told him I had brought it because I was not going to leave it up there to be contaminated. He said he would never have anyone there. But would he go somewhere else? No! Anyway, he thought it looked like something was missing but didn't know what. Now you know for sure that the bed wasn't made! All the covers just in a heap. Otherwise, he would have easily seen that it was not on the top of the bed. Monday night he had slept in daughter's room. It is smaller. He took a space heater and turned the thermostat down so we are not heating the whole house.


(It snowed last night and is snowing again now. I hope Crystal and I will still be able to meet tomorrow. #3 son suggested this morning before leaving for work that I might need to take his 4wd Explorer.)


I was not closing the door on the idea of taking everything out but was trying to not respond hastily out of hurt and anger. I do not feel that push to empty the house now.


#1 daughter had questioned our schedule a couple of weeks ago as she was wanting to have a sleepover at her house. I had the impression that it was for the siblings and not the parents. The thought sounded rather intriguing to me at the time. On Monday, #2 daughter mentioned that this was going to be this Friday and thought also that it was not for parents. Suddenly the idea is not so intriguing anymore. In fact, I didn't want any part of it and wondered what I could do to avoid the situation. After Tuesday night, I am ok with the idea now, and #1 daughter did confirm yesterday that it is not for parents. I don't know what to expect. Well, I know he should be posting and tweaking an apology letter.

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Wow, Looney!


So the fear of change really fits in with what he said on Sunday about the pain of change vs. the pain of remaining the same doesn't it.


How do you know when to use the fences and the tight leash, and when to use the complete "freedom" and no contact? And, of course, that complete "freedom" is far from freedom because it is bondage to sin.


So they think they are being totally responsible people, when, in fact, they are running from responsibility? That is interesting.

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There is a bible verse that keeps coming to me as I read your posts.


Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. Mt 7:6


I think you are a pearl and marriage- relationship- with you is sacred. You keep putting yourself before this man who is acting no better than a pig. And like the dog, giving him relationship is just letting him destroy it...and you.


Funny thing about animals. You can train them, treat them like human beings, dress them in fine clothes...but you let that dog outside, and chances are, the first mud puddle he finds, he's gonna roll and wallow. And he will fight you if you try to get him out.


Sometimes..you need to let them be in the mud. They need to get cold and wet and hungry before they realize that maybe playing in the mud wasn't a good idea.


And sometimes...being in the mud is such a natural environment, that they stay. Like a pig.


The Bible also says to let tbe unbeliever depart, if he will not stay. Paul talks about a man who committed sexual sin in the church- he instructed them to cast him out and bind him over to satan for destruction of the flesh. Notice it wasn't just "let him go" but "kick him out with a curse".


As it turned out, the man repented and was restored. But it took drastic measures to get his attention.


Take the drastic measure. You don't treat cancer with aspirin. You do surgery and radiation therapy. Don't treat J with kindness and gentle words. Use the righteous anger God gave you over his sin and do something drastic.


Either he'll prove himself a man of God...or a pig in the mud.

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How do you know when to use the fences and the tight leash, and when to use the complete "freedom" and no contact?



It totally depends on whether or not he is taking actions to change. It doesn't matter what he says. In J's case, he has fed you line after line while continuing in porn and affairs, so at this point it's obvious that there is no commitment to the process. He needs to experience the natural consequences of his actions - in this case, loss of relationship with you. It remains to be seen whether he will miss that enough to actually do what he needs to do. I totally agree with IP - let him roll in the mud. He will either decide he likes the mud, or he'll decide to get cleaned up.


And, of course, that complete "freedom" is far from freedom because it is bondage to sin.



Yes. But that's his choice.


So they think they are being totally responsible people, when, in fact, they are running from responsibility?



I'm on the fence about this one. On one hand, I believe that they are often unaware of their motivations. However, I firmly believe that they are very aware of their behavior. They know that what they're doing is really not acceptable, which is why they minimize and make excuses. They don't want to change their behavior, so they convince themselves that it really isn't that bad, or they are somehow justified in what they are doing. Since men compartmentalize so well, they are able to convince themselves that they are overall a good husband.


I've been doing a lot of research and reading on abuse, especially over the past year, and one of the interesting things I've found is that physically abusive men generally have a line they will not cross. For example, if they are hitting their wife or child, they will often restrict the blows to areas that won't show. Or they might throw their wife to the ground, but they will refrain from kicking her in the head. Since physical and emotional abuse stem from the same mindset - I deserve to have my needs met, and I am justified in punishing you if you don't meet them - I believe that's also true of emotionally abusive men. Until they hit that line, they can justify every single thing they have done to you.

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So would it be appropriate to see if he comes through with the apology letter for Saturday to see if he is taking steps to change, or just tell him not to come home tomorrow?


Lord, let me hear you voice. I am so torn and confused. I know that you do not want me to settle for the life that I have had forced upon me. I will not degrade myself to continue in that. It is not your plan. Show me what steps to take and when to take them.

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Tell him not to come home. Tell him that you will talk about what he needs to do if he wants to come home after you see the apology letter.


If you let him come home now . . . well, what if he doesn't give you the apology letter on Saturday? He's already home, and it's going to be much harder to get him to leave. He will probably give you an excuse and promise to have the letter by Sunday or Monday, so you wait, and then he promises, and then you wait . . .


You have already given him way too many chances. I get it. I did it, too. We want to believe that our husband wants to change, and so we try to encourage even the faintest steps in that direction, and we wait way too long for him to do what should take him a very short amount of time. All this does is enable his abuse. He has continued the porn and affairs because he has gotten away with it. You have accepted those minor changes as something bigger than they were, and he figured they were a small price to pay in order to continue in his dysfunction.


He needs to be out, and then he needs to do some big things, consistently, in order for you to let him come back home. If he chooses to stay gone instead of doing them, then you have a choice to make. Either let him be gone, or take him back on his terms. Only you can make that choice, but at least you will know what he's willing to give you and what he's not.

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