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Thanks Charles. I definitely have a tendency to freak out. I keep thinking of how I could've done things differently and how if I did this one thing, how things would be different. I know it's not just one thing, but an accumulation of lots of things. 


Oftentimes, when we were in an intense argument/fight with no solution, my beloved would say, "I know you don't know how to fix this. But I can." Then she would come over, start crying, and then forgive me. It took so much strength from her to do that. I don't think I was ever strong enough to do what she did several times in our marriage. She is so incredible. I've even abused this several times because early on our marriage, after an argument, I would think or say to others, "I'm glad we're Christian because she has to forgive me." This was spiritual abuse.


MaryJane, thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think that idea will work. J&K had called her up several weeks ago and the call was a very negative experience for her (a huge understatement). I've asked a Pastor friend who has actually empathized with her and who totally laid the blame on me. He's here in Atlanta and said he'll join me as I talk to my beloved on Oct. 5th.

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Ok. Here's an update. Sorry that I didn't post earlier. I just wasn't emotionally ready.


We did it over Skype video. We both had witnesses and she asked that the witnesses don't try to steer the conversation in any direction. Before she shared, she asked the pastor for prayer for our time and for the Holy Spirit to be over us.


Then she said that she wanted to share a list with me because she needed to share it for her own healing and also because she was committed to forgiveness. I asked her if I could share two things before she starts. I shared these two things...

1) I thanked her for putting me through this because it has made me desperate for Christ like never before.

2) I apologized for putting her in this position and said that it must be extremely difficult for her.


With that, I told her that I will respect whatever decision she makes.


Then she read a list of hurts over the course of our 6 years of marriage for about 40-45 minutes. It was very intense. We were both crying and sobbing the whole time. I didn't defend anything and just kept nodding my head in agreement. At one point, it was so intense she started wailing and said, "how can you expect me to give take you back?" I just shook my head that she doesn't need to take me back.


Then she said that the threat of divorce was real. She mentioned that J&K told her to use it as a means to change me. But she said she couldn't do that b/c it was manipulative and she did not want to be manipulative. She said that she will file for divorce. She then gave her Biblical grounds for divorce:


Exodus 21:10-11.“If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."


Her rationale was that if a slave woman is not taken care of and can leave, then a freed Jewish woman has at least the same rights.


1 Timothy 5:8. But those who won’t care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers.
Matthew 18:15-17. 15 “If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. 16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. 17 If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.

She then said that if I get remarried she will tell my next wife about how I abused her so that I won't ever do this to women again. She also said that she will write a book about abuse (she is an English major from Harvard). She said thank you to me because now she can spot abuse from a mile away. She also said that 11 women have contacted her since our separation because of abuse in their own marriages. She wants to be an advocate for the abused women of the world. She asked me about my thoughts.


I didn't defend anything and just acknowledged what I did was sickening. I told her that after the divorce, my only two options are celibacy or reconciliation. I told her that I'd rather wait and be celibate for life with a chance of reconciliation with her than to remarry. (I said this after studying about divorce and remarriage for the past month as there was no adultery in our marriage and both of us are believers. I have read several books, did Bible studies, studied the Greek, etc.). After I said this, she just listened and didn't say anything back. I am glad that she didn't say anything back such as "I will never reconcile with you" or "No! Just go remarry someone else!" 


Then we gave each other updates of what's going on our lives. I shared about my life here in Atlanta, about my new job, and about my brothers. She said her hope is for the salvation of my brothers. She even prayed for them. I asked about her future with the missions agency and she's not sure if they'll allow her to stay on after the divorce. If she's kicked out of the mission agency, she has plans of working on behalf of child brides in Yemen, or for women's rights in Saudi Arabia, or orphanages in the Muslim world.


Then the discussion cooled down and we just talked about logistics. She asked that we end in prayer. She prayed, then I prayed, and then my pastor prayed. Then it was over. 


So where am I at now? 


Totally depressed. But knowing that any sane woman would not want to see me for the rest of her life. I have been a bit bitter and upset about her Biblical basis for divorce as I disagree and I have to keep telling myself that's a moot point. There's no point in have theological debates. All that matters is that I take the responsibility of hurting her severely. I am still hoping she'll change her mind. I deserve this as these are the consequences of my sins. To expect her to take me back would take an extraordinary woman to do so. 


So here's where ya'll can really help me. My theological position is either reconciliation or celibacy (until death or her own remarriage). With that said, I'm not sure how to carry on with my life. 


- should I join the married group or the singles group? 

- if our divorce is finalized, am I still married in God's eyes because of our sexual union? The only people we've ever slept with is each other. 

- should I continue to wear my wedding ring? 

- how about the pictures of her around my house? Should I take them all down?

- there are two options for me in how to live.

1) Hoping and praying for reconciliation. Then I will always have this pang in my life. There is a very real chance she'll be single for life and so it can be a life of pang for me. 

2) Take the mentality that I'm single and celibate and so remove her from my mind and life. That way, I don't have the pang in my life. 

3) Maybe there's a third, middle ground?


As far as pursuing her? I can't do anything for right now because I've violated her boundaries so many times. Maybe in half a year, I can send her an email asking if I could send something. Not quite there yet, but I know that I need to give her breathing room. In the list of things I've done to hurt her, she mentioned how I haven't changed during our separation because of the gifts and text messages I've sent her and how those activities violated her and showed her that I haven't changed. She did ask me an interesting question. She asked how many times I've cooked for my mom. I said 2-3 times (which is true). Then she said to serve her. For those who have kept up with my post, you know that cooking is a major stronghold in my life that has hurt my marriage.


Also, if and when she sends me the divorce papers, maybe I can just stick a small post-it note on it asking her to reconsider. 

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     Keep coming to group.


     Keep the wedding ring on until your divorce is final.


     The pictures can go either way.


      It takes two full years to get through all the emotions and steps necessary to heal from a divorce. Both Christian and Secular 

       psychologists agree. 


       Spend the next two years focusing on Christ and listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. During this time, you spend ALL

        your spare time learning how to be the Christ-like man any woman would want to be with. Find all the roots to the issues that

         not only caused your marital problems but all the problems in your life. I would suggest our group, J&K and some private

        counseling with someone trained with Elijah House.


       Next, learn to do the things you wouldn't do that she wanted you to do while you were married. I would start with learning to



       Lastly, burn every post it note pad you own and never use them for anything again except for work.


God Bless


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Here's another update. She wrote an email to my accountability group because she was so angry at them for not holding me more accountable, especially my violations when I sent her the text messages/gifts/letters. I had taken the advice on the men's calls over the advice given to me by my accountability group. 


She wrote, "It caused me great grief, anger, and tears each time that violation occurred during our separation.  I was also sad for D-, because I truly wanted him to do well during that period and it confirmed to me that he was not changing in his disrespect of me as a person.  I gave him one very easy, clear boundary to respect over three months and he could not even fulfill that.  How much less could I trust him to respect the much more difficult, foggy, daily demands of respecting me in a marriage?  I was true to my word when I told D- I would refrain from making a decision until the end of the three months.  I did not make a decision until the last week.  It saddened me that I had seen and heard nothing in him that made me believe that going back to him would be the right choice. Nobody else asked anything of him (other than Joel's ministry, who required him to continue to abuse me through unwanted contact)."


It saddens me greatly that she had not made her up mind until the last week and that she was hoping that I would do well. There are so many what-ifs going on in my head. There's definitely anger at some people, including myself, at sending her the text messages, letters, and gifts. I really do believe that if I disregarded the tactics and strategies on the men's calls, that my situation would be better. I was charged to not be passive in the situation and that I need to actively pursue her. Really, if I was more "passive' and not sent her any text, gifts, or letters, then she would have felt respected instead of abused. The people on this forum, especially the women, have been tremendously helpful, urging me to NOT send text messages, NOT to violate her boundaries, to move to Atlanta, etc. I know that this ministry has some great principles, but I sincerely believe Joel needs to be held accountable in some way. I heard numerous times, "we are the best in the business" and tons of other self-promotion. Or "don't listen to your accountability group. They have no idea what they are doing." He even said to me, "if any moderators disagree with me, don't listen to them because I am the head of this ministry. I am in charge here" and another time said "I will rebuke the moderators if they tell you to do something that is contrary to what I say." A few instances, I prayed in earnest to God and felt like He was leading in a particular way, only to be told, "you're too narcissistic and so you cannot believe what you think God is telling you" or that he was trying to save me and my wife from hell. I believe the original motivation is great and there's great truth here, but please do not let this ministry go down because of self-glorification, self-promotion, and taking on a messiah complex. The ministry has been a blessing to many, many people and I want it to continue to bless people. However, great ministries need accountability and all glory needs to be given to God, not the ministry or the founder himself. 


Anyways, she now has the divorce papers in her hand and will send them to me this week. I will have hope and will continue to pray for restoration, even if the divorce becomes finalized. So I will press on. I know for a fact that she's not interested in remarriage and so there won't be other men in her life. I will only work on myself and for God to continue working in me. If she initiates contact with me, I'll take it as a blessing and will do everything possible to make it a positive experience for her. I will continue to remain on this forum because I believe you guys provide great insight and because you are volunteering for this, I am greatly appreciative.

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Hey everyone. My wife has just emailed me the marital settlement agreement, which comes before the divorce papers (I believe). There's a line in it that states,


"WHEREAS, we were married on the 17th day of November, 2007, in Santa Clara, State of California, and we now mutually desire to dissolve our marriage and mutually agree to live permanently separate and apart from each other, as if we were single."


I promised I wouldn't contest the divorce even though I don't want it. But in the line above, it states, "mutually desire to dissolve our marriage." 


How can I respect my wife's desires and not lie on the agreement?



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Would it be disrespectful of me if I ask her to change the wording?  Such as... 


"the husband agrees with the wife on the dissolution of the marriage" or "husband reluctantly agrees with the wife to dissolve the marriage."

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Ok everyone. My wife and I are going through the divorce process right now. Through it, I've been trying to give her more money and made sure that everything was at least 50/50. Anyways, no need to get into too many retails. Basically, we have two retirement accounts. One that is in her name and one that is in mine. I knew that during our marriage, we've put about $5000 more into her retirement account and I told her that it's a hassle to figure out how the exact amounts because of rate of growth, pretax vs. postax, etc. Basically, I just wanted her to keep the $5000. Then she wrote me this email:

Hi D-.

To be honest, I just wanted to say, I'm disappointed in you that I gave you every opportunity to be generous with me considering the financial abuse that occurred during our marriage, and you didn't offer me anything other than 50/50, which doesn't seem fair because 1) you spent the majority of the money in our marriage and I went without many things I needed or things that would make me happy, 2) you are the one who is keeping those expensive stocks, and 3) You have a paying job right now while I am losing support, and I don't have any other career options at this point.  I'm not asking for support or alimony.  You did say that if it was too much hassle to figure stuff out, I could just go ahead and keep my retirement account, but that wasn't really an offer of generosity, because it's more about avoiding hassle rather than being generous or paying me back for the years of abuse, and it really isn't that much. I'm not asking for the money.  God will provide for me.  But I'm just saying I'm disappointed in you.  I don't know why I always expect more.  Still haven't learned my lesson.  


I will be filing this coming week.  I'll need a waiver from you saying you're aware of the divorce -- it will save money and hassle from not needing to serve you, and then you won't have to show up in court here either.  I'll keep you posted about that.  


Would you mind paying half of the filing fees? I know you are not willing to divorce, but you pretty much forced me into this position with your abuse, and you had plenty of "last chances" but ignored the warnings, so I hold you just as responsible for the dissolution of our marriage as you may hold me.  In light of that, I feel like it's only fair if you pay half, especially since I'm saving us money by not using a lawyer and arguing about property or asking for alimony, though I have every right to do so.


My response:

I kept many things away from you that could have made you happier and financially abused you. There’s no question of it. I am hurt though by your comments regarding the last few months as I’ve been actively working behind the scenes to give you more money, a lot of it you may not be aware of. I don’t care about the money. If you wanted more, then I would have liked to have given more. I did offer a lot of future money a few months ago, but I did it disrespectfully and in a controlling manner and I am sorry about that. For the retirement accounts, please keep the money. No need to split it up. I thought my giving you the excuse of “hassle” would settle the issue, but I didn’t think you would be so persistent. God has blessed me with a decent job fairly quickly and I’m happy to share the blessings with you. Also, Sam is moving out this week and so my mom will move back upstairs and so I may be able to find a renter for downstairs, so I can get more income to share. You’re not sure about your future financial situation because of the bind I put you in and so I’m here to make as much reparations as possible.


S-... I absolutely do not want a divorce. But I destroyed the marriage. I destroyed the marriage. I destroyed the marriage. It’s my fault and am doing everything to seek help for myself… weekly counseling, multiple weekly groups, psychiatry, reading book after book on abuse, reading blogs on abuse, etc. It’s so obvious I destroyed the marriage and put you through hell. I can pay for 100% of the filing fees if you would allow me to and will also respect your decisions. I put you in this horrendous situation and stole and ruined many of your dreams.




Her reply:

D-, I'm tired.  I have a lot of things I can say to you in rebuke, but unfortunately the trust in our relationship is so broken that I can't even say anything to you, because everything I say eventually gets used against me in manipulation, and I feel like whenever I share what's on my heart, I just teach you how to manipulate me more.  Your entire language of "confession" is based on what you think you heard me say, not on true understanding of how abusive and self-centered you are, and continue to be in your emails.  I also realize now that my rebuking and confronting you on your wrong, which you always hated, were a product of my hope that things would change, and I don't have any hope now.  You think you care about me and are doing the best for me financially, and I'm telling you I'm disappointed in you, and you're hurt by that.  Nothing is different.  It doesn't matter to you what my feelings are, it only matters to you what your own feelings are, and you have no idea how to handle my negative feelings.  Nothing is new.  Fine.  You're hurt.  As usual I'll just let go of my disappointment and let you be hurt.  Just take the difference in our retirement funds and give me my divorce.  Thanks.





I am at a loss. Was I trying to be manipulative? Was my email really that self-centered? I have no idea how to respond to her email, or even if I should. 


Any thoughts?

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Do not respond..I'm not saying never write her... Just not about any of that. You should have never mentioned how she hurt you... And to her... All your self help in your last paragraph was just that.. Self help. So to answer your question... Yes, extremely self centered..


This is all in love.... Where in your letter did you ask her how she was or what she needed?? In your letter, where did you consider her feelings?

Look my friend... I am divorced as of 4 November.. So take what I say with a grain of salt... But one thing I do is look beyond myself.. Even though ( my ex ) she is living with another man.. Just yesterday, I moved mountains to make sure her medical coverage was squared away... NOT because it was the right thing to do or that it would make me feel good... It's because she needed it. She thanked me for taking care of everything.. That simple thank you was a victory in itself... I might no longer be her husband.. But at least she can say that she knows someone that loves her unconditionally.. I'm not saying that to brag... I only want you to be able to see that your soon to be ex.. Should be able to say "Thank you" for something you did for her.. NOT because you're trying to be a better man.. Or because you're trying to win her back or show her that you're changing....But because she has a need.

Pay the filing fee... And when you get quiet.. Think of your wife as a woman, a daughter of God that has concerns and fear of what's around the corner and how she can make ends meet......she even wrote that you have a job and she doesn't have any options at this time....

Now this is just me.. Because I did it... First do the waiver she is asking you for.. And give her spousal support for at least a year... Have it documented in the proceedings.. And DO NOT say..., oh wife, I wanted to give this to you because I was so abusive and bad... All you have to say is " you deserve so much more, but this is what I can give.... And no matter where life takes us.. You're never alone "

Pray first before you react.. I'm not telling you what to do.. I'm not your dad ;). I'm only trying to show you that your wife is so much more than what you see..... And until you can look at her as a person... You'll always only see yourself.

Edited by Charles from Cali
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Thank you Charles. I didn't respond to her email. I wanted to focus on myself to indicate that I was the problem and not her. I was trying to take full responsibility, and of course, to show her how I am changing. I think that motive is a strong one almost all the time. 


I do need further help. She accused me of not being generous with her and I referred to an email that I wrote to her several months ago where I told her I would support her so that she could stay in the missions agency. She told me to not support her and instead pay my mom's mortgage. I agreed to this. 


She writes,


"You offer me financial support but later in person you asked me to let you NOT support me, and I said fine. In my response I did not even refer to financial support.  I was upset that you were discussing my future with the agency without CCing me on those emails, as if you had a right to dictate my life and what I was going to do.  Please do not twist the past.  YOU were the one that said you would not support me because you could not do that and handle the mortgage.  Do you deny this?"


I am not sure how to respond to this because I know the facts are wrong. I know that she asked me to not support her and instead support my mom and I agreed that it would be difficult. She is so angry that it feels like anything I do or say will be turned around against me. Help!


Here is a possible reply:


Hi S-. You have every right to be angry with the way I disrespected you in the past. For the future support, I had thought I could support you and my mom's mortgage at the same time until you helped me think through it and then I saw that it would be hard to do both. However, after getting a better job than I thought I could get, I see that I can do both and can give you significant help to cover some of your costs. You deserve much more, but I will try my best to give as much as possible to you while being responsible to my mom as well. 

Edited by anon2000
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Hi there... Do your budget and determine exactly what you can do for your wife.. Then.. You can write your wife and say something like this...



I re-looked my finances and put a plan in place where I can take care of my mom's mortgage as well as give you a small portion of what you deserve and what I owe to you.. Please put XXXX amount in the divorce decree and I will sign it and return as soon as I receive it..

As time goes on and my Finances change.. I would like to increase the amount that will come to you. I honestly just want you to be ok.


This is just an option... Just remember EVERYTIME you bring up the past.. She has to re-live it.. Just give her a new action from your heart and then you can stop from playing dodge ball with your thoughts....

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Ok. I wrote her that I've relooked at the finances, that I care about her, and that I am wanting to give her money and plus take care of my mom. She didn't like it. I haven't responded to her emails in a timely fashion b/c the emails give me so much stress and also I am positing it online here and also talking with my counselor before I respond. 


I'm sorry, no.  You had your chance to be generous and you didn't take it.  You are only doing this now because I challenged you on this point.  Please don't pretend you genuinely care for me.  You won't even respond to my emails for days without me nagging you to respond.  This is the same story over and over again -- me forcing you into response and you claiming righteousness out of it.  I don't need or want your support, if you send it to the mission agency on my behalf I will send it back to you and lose the 10% admin fee.  You don't get credit for "generosity" that is being wrung from you.  It's like all of our reconciliations -- whatever generous "offers" you made were not really generous offers -- they were only given because I was backing you into a corner.  I don't want your money, any more than I wanted you to stop watching sports on TV.  

So are you denying that you were the one who told me in person, standing in my house, that you could not support me in addition to your family responsibilities?  You asked me that in person, and I said fine.  Anyway, I never wanted regular support from you.  But I did expect you to be generous and try to give me money.  To me, dividing our current finances 50/50 seems grossly unfair to me.  Well, it's done.  I don't want your money.  I want to be able to walk away and say that you gave me nothing that was not mine already.  
If you really care about me, why didn't you make this whole process easier for me?  You could have divorced me first and protected me from all the recrimination of the church.  But yes, I know, you were still hopeful that I'm not really going to go through with it, so you would never initiate divorce, because YOU don't want divorce.  Deep down in your heart you know that I am better off without you, but the selfishness in your heart that knows that you are not better off without me kept you from releasing me and protecting me.    
When we talked last on Skype, I told you that I was getting bombarded with judgmental emails and that I was under trial by the mission agency and the entire worldwide church.  You could have protected me from all of that.  Or at the very least you could have noticed it.  But you didn't even show that you cared about my suffering.  You have no idea what I'm going through.  Your only, immediate response on Skype was that you got one bad email too.  And what did i do?  I leaped to your defense and contacted that person and did research and found out who it was and assured you that that person was a stranger.  You, on the other hand, didn't even respond to the fact that I'm getting hurt by others.  It didn't even register with you.
Finally, if you really respect me as a person, why are you ignoring my emails?  Why does it take you days to respond?  It's very frustrating and I feel deeply disrespected.
So much of her info is wrong but I don't want to come off as being defensive. I have sent a letter to the mission agency, saying how I was the sole person to blame and to take the heat off of her. She doesn't know about that letter so many of the other things I've done.
As for me divorcing her, I had thought about that a ton, but I felt like I had no Biblical grounds for it, whereas she might have some. It was a struggle, but in the end, after praying and thinking about it for a long time, I didn't feel peace about it.
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My man.... You'll never win trying to explain yourself... You honestly just have to be creative and find ways to love her.. And when you come up blank.. Just ask God for insight.. If HE tells you what to do.. She will be blessed... If it comes from only you... It's going to irritate her... All you can do is be like Jesus.. He never said a mumbling word when he was going through all the chaos before the cross.. He just loved.. That is the only way your wife will see you changing.. In TIME not overnight... Divorced or not.. You will only change when you allow God to work in you and through you....

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My man.... You'll never win trying to explain yourself... You honestly just have to be creative and find ways to love her.. And when you come up blank.. Just ask God for insight.. If HE tells you what to do.. She will be blessed... If it comes from only you... It's going to irritate her... All you can do is be like Jesus.. He never said a mumbling word when he was going through all the chaos before the cross.. He just loved.. That is the only way your wife will see you changing.. In TIME not overnight... Divorced or not.. You will only change when you allow God to work in you and through you....

Wow, powerful words Charles.  I too invite the Holy Spirit to guide and direct me.  It has been difficult to discern at times.  I am about 10 months into this recovery and I understand it typically takes 2-3 years to fully heal so I see I still have a ways to go.


Anon with almost a year from your last how are you doing now?

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Just reading through this - as a woman with a husband who also doesn't get the point about NOT sending texts and flowers I think the missing point that no one seems to be mentioning here is COMMUNICATION.   Have you ever thought about having a real conversation with your wife and actually ASKING her about the texting and the flowers - have you given her a chance to explain herself -  when she said she found them fake (which I can totally understand) did you respond with - I hear what you are saying and I really really want to learn all about why you feel they are fake - because I KNOW I Should understand because my job as a husband is to KNOW what blesses your heart and what doesn't.  Have you shown that you care that she finds them fake, have you shown her that her view and opinion really really matter to you, have you shown her that you want to meet her in her love language and that you understand that texts and flowers only work if they come from a heart full of love for her and that you understand that she doesn't feel your heart is full of love for her because she has had years of emotional abuse from you which has tauhght her that you DON'T have a heart full of love for her.

And I am writing this to you partly in utter frustration that my husband hasn't got a clue about all of this and isn't the slightest bit interested in learning - he wrote me a so called love letter and it was TOTALLY about HIS feelings and what HE liked and what HE did and what HE felt and what HE wanted and what HE enjoyed in our marriage and what I did for HIM and HIM HIM HIM HIM HIM  - and I haven't responded - and he wrote it on the 23 Dec - and it is now the 28 Dec and I have not had ONE WORD of communication from him.

WHY are you men like this to us women - what did we do to deserve this kind of treatment!
Sorry to rant at you!


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WHY are you men like this to us women - what did we do to deserve this kind of treatment!


Hi Les Mis, 


I am sorry to hear the pain you are going through.  I have heard your husband on the calls last year and sad to see he did not commit fully to the process.  It has taken me over a year to finally get to a place where I regularly ask myself "How can I bless my wife?" and stop the destructive behaviors of the past being a passive aggressive husband.  Today, thankfully we are on the road to recovery, however it has taken a LOT of dying to self and that has come through regular men's and couples calls along with this forum, daily reading, really an all out dedication to change who I was.  I have pursued connecting with my wife in an understanding way, loving her where she is at consistently and not become reactive to whether or not she responds the way I want to.  In this day and age it is much easier for males remain boys instead of growing into true Christlike manhood.  I pray your husband gets fully engaged and learns to live out his live of sacrificial love for you, demonstrating God's unending love.  I pray that the peace of the Lord is with you through this storm and glad that you are plugged into this ministry to help gird you.

Edited by ChooseLove
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