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Hi everyone. A quick update, we had a private marriage intensive this past weekend. It was rough but I learned a lot. It was good for me even if it doesnt bring my husband any change....and, maybe it will, who knows. I am grateful for what it brought here.


Today, i sent my husband regarding why I was upset over something he did last night. I explained how its been ongoing for many years and why I find it hurtful and causes me to lose trust (no not build any). He replied. His reply is typical except it sounds nicer. So i think he believes hes "got this down". In reality, its the exact same, backwards apology that is really blaming....and more. When I was not as reaponsive or

as pleased with his response as he seemed to be, Kathy suggested I post his response here and show him others opinions instead of trying to point it out to him myself. He thinks his reaponse is caring, taking full reaponsibility and apologizing. I find it to be dismissive, avoiding, justifying and blaming..... as if I am still standing with my first email to him and his response is, "well heres how it is...and so how it is should change how you feel." Do you guys see this as caring or taking responsibility as my husband sees it? Heres the email:


I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. I can promise you it's not my reality. Let's go back to that time. I presented you with a document and was fully ready, willing and excited to get it done. You didn't sign it. We didnt get it done.


Fast forward to the past several years. I haven't had more than six months of happy, peaceful bliss in a row without you leaving for quite some time. MY fault.......fine, whatever. I'll claim it. The fact is we've been on again, off again constantly. We've been a total dysfunctional relationship that deserves to be healed and then sealed.


I'm really sorry if you're taking this as some sort of excuse but it's just not. It's reality. I've hung in past where I ever thought I could because i love you and yes I would like for our relationship to finally be healthy.





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.  He thinks his reaponse is caring, taking full responsibility and apologizing. Not even close!!



I find it to be dismissive, avoiding, justifying and blaming..... I completely agree!   as if I am still standing with my first email to him and his response is, "well heres how it is...and so how it is should change how you feel." That's exactly what it feels like to me, too!


Do you guys see this as caring or taking responsibility as my husband sees it? Nope... 


Heres the email:


I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. I can promise you it's not my reality. Let's go back to that time. I presented you with a document and was fully ready, willing and excited to get it done. You didn't sign it. We didnt get it done.


Fast forward to the past several years. I haven't had more than six months of happy, peaceful bliss in a row without you leaving for quite some time. MY fault.......fine, whatever. I'll claim it. The fact is we've been on again, off again constantly. We've been a total dysfunctional relationship that deserves to be healed and then sealed.


I'm really sorry if you're taking this as some sort of excuse but it's just not. It's reality. I've hung in past where I ever thought I could because i love you and yes I would like for our relationship to finally be healthy.





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I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. I can promise you it's not my reality.



Hi Overwhelmed,

I am going to respond to your husband here, because I am not sure if he has his own thread...


First of all, you cannot apologize for how your wife is feeling.  What she is feeling is exactly that, what she is feeling.  It is not wrong or right.  It is valid and important and needs to not be dismissed.


Stating that something is "not my reality" does not support or validate your wife.  It is telling her that she is wrong.  You are trying to do it in a "gentle" way, but it is still what you are saying.


I haven't had more than six months of happy, peaceful bliss in a row without you leaving for quite some time.


Quite a bit of blame in this statement, don't you think?  You may say that it is simply true, but in reality you ARE blaming her.



MY fault.......fine, whatever. I'll claim it.


This is NOT an admission of having done anything wrong.  You might WANT it to sound that way, but again, it is invalidating and dismissive.


I know that you and your wife just went through an Intensive.  I know that at the Intensives, Joel & Kathy cover how to do a L.O.V.E.R. apology.  THIS is how you do an apology.  Not by dismissing your wife's feelings.  Not by saying "whatever".  Not by blaming or by defending.


Here is how you do it...


L = listen, to your wife, to her heart, to her hurts (not just to the "facts")

0 = offer an apology ("I am sorry for hurting you", "I am sorry for how I treated you", "I am sorry for how my actions made you feel", etc...)

V = validate ("I realize that when I treat you this way, it makes you feel...", "I know that my actions intimidated/threatened/scared/embarrassed/etc you", etc...)

E = embrace her IF she wants you to

R = repent, turn away, don't do it any more!  Don't just promise to not do it any more... tell her that you don't want to do it any more, that you will work hard to not do it any more, and work hard at it!!


THAT is a true apology.


PS  Overwhelmed, this is Melissa from the marriage mentoring call on Wednesday night (aka Eeyore on the forum).  :razz:

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Thank you. I regained strength hearing from you and your husband tonight. You guys are right, the support is a needed blessing I have to provide myself regardless of the direction my husband goes with the seeds that have been planted. I have used up my energy for years, trying to have a good relationship with him, at the expense of my own well being....just how he likes it, this isolates me from the the right kind of needed support which only enables him to stay the same. I find peace and a calmness surrounding the safety of good, balanced Christian helpers. For the first time in a long time, I have a solid plan that is safe and support from those who have walked the plan, is strength to draw from and stand by. The peace is from knowing that no matter what he does, wont change where I am going/wanting/walking.... thats sanity.... Ive missed my sanity, lol. Its dusty right now but I am shining it up, little by little. For years I have been on the "Grin and bare" plan.... bye bye to that. The most freeing part of this process is closing the door on that and stepping into "I refuse to suffer...." well, that is something I am so grateful for. I thank God for bringing to me such awesome people to learn from. Yay.. good caring people that "get it" without me having to exhaust myself explaining.... Ive spent 11 years trying to explain and explain and explain. Yet without dozens of tiny details to irrelavent things, you guys just "get it" and I am not crazy or demanding or warped or on and on.... I forgot what its like to talk to good, caring people.... this is all so odd.... I am raw at how deprived I have been.... its surreal. I DONT HAVE TO DO THAT ANYMORE!!!! I can lay it to rest.... this is a dream come true even IF my husband stays the same. Thats the best part! What if he doesnt change? Has been such an energy sucker.... now I think, "if he doesnt, thats his deal....and if he doesnt, I am grateful to not be him...." I used to wish I could be in his shoes so I could not care like he does. Or at least be able to not feel anything like he seems to be able to do. Ugh... I dont ever want to be that sick.

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Good for you!  You are coming from such a place of strength.  I am proud of you.  And I am so glad that you found this ministry.  You are right, these things (finding this ministry) don't "just happen".  God has you here for a reason... and you need to be strong and get support no matter what your husband decides, as you said. 


It is the biggest blessing to have walked this out so we can share our story and our struggles with other people.  We are far from perfect, and we still have our struggles.  But being transparent not only helps others, but it helps us as well.  There are a lot of things that we have gone through that make us stronger, but it is important to realize that we are here for a reason.  And I know that you are too.  And most importantly, God takes care of his girls.  No matter what your husband decides to do, God will always take care of you. 

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Hi there "Overwhelmed."


It was really great to meet you and your awesome little guy. He is amazing! BTW, how is he doing? Have ya'll gone home from the hospital? I didn't hear back from you.


One of our goals will not only to hopefully see a restoration in your marriage to an Outrageously Happy Marriage but also to change your forum name. lol From "Overwhelmed" to something like "Overjoyed," whatever that may look like. :)


We had one of our former moderators who when they came to us, her name was "losing hope (see their story here on the forum).

I said to Joel one day, "I don't like that name "Losing hope.' We need to change that. So, we set out on a mission to do exactly that.

Eventually, her named changed to "gaining hope" and finally, it became "giving hope."

The helped with our Worldwide calls for many years. A great and awesome miracle. :)



You said:

" I used to wish I could be in his shoes so I could not care like he does"



I think ALL of us ladies have been there. If we just didn't feel (in this relationship) but we do.


I found a piece of paper with a prayer on it from our bad days. It was a prayer of me asking our Father if it was ok if I asked Joel for a hug. That it had been 2 weeks since I asked. Not only was I denying the very needs that I had but I was trying my best to not care. Putting on that "cloak of not caring like he wore." It doesn't work for us ladies, no matter how hard we try.


Even our "not caring " is still us "caring" deep down inside, thus our reactions, whether that be bitterness, anger, frustration, walls of resentment, etc. Us, trying to shut off the faucet of caring. Even the "drips" from the faucet we try to stop. All it does is make things worse. We were created to care.

A sad place to be in. But then there was GOD! He saw, he heard and has brought you hear to get the answers you need. Your walking in the right direction.


You have found a place where you can be heard. We hear you! We understand! We comprehend! We care!


Blessings my friend, Kathy


Your in good hands here!

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Hi there! Heres where things are:


After the call that night, I took the next day for myself. I caught up on sleep from the previous nights at the hospital with our son, I visited with a good friend, I ate a good dinner and I went and had a pedicure. After that, I emailed him your response on apologies. He responded to that email with, "you're having other people pick apart my communication." I took a deep breath.... I told him that I was under the impression he wanted to understand and learn, so I was bringing a means for him to do such and that it isnt anything I havent tried to convey to him myself, for years every which way known to man. I told him that it seems no matter what I say, hes stuck turning into all its not. I told him that his method needs to be picked apart, that he should join in on picking it apart and rebuilding a new method. I told him I am on board with learning and moving forward with new information and "how to's" because I want a good life, for us. I told him if that isn't possible then that is because of HIS choice to stay stuck but I will not stay stuck with him. I told him he needs to involve himself with the process and that means working with the grown up people in this ministry who have been there, done that. I told him I want him on the callstwice a week at least and I expect him to listen and follow the direction even IF he thinks its wrong.... I told him that it is ok with me that he thinks its wrong information because hes so into his dysfunctional , set way, that he cant know the difference right now. He tried to debate me. I held my hand up and said theres no discussion, its a choice, this way or not but if its not, then i interpret that as hes refusing to give me a safe marriage. He shut up. Here we are today and at dinner he made one of his "jokes" about this ministry. After his "joke" he said, "are you going to take it personally that I dont agree with everything your heros have to say about everything being my fault." I calmly said, "no. What you said hurt me. Because it was degrading to me. THAT i dont take personally, I take as a sign that you will continue to put yourself before the greater good of our family. THAT I do not want or need." He didnt talk. I havent either. Monday, I WILL make ot offical in action not in words. I already told him.... I do NOT have to repeat it, I will show it. The end. The rest is his deal. I did my part. I will NOT suffer over his deal. He can suffer over his deal in whatever form that takes.

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Oh and its offical in my mind, I do not believe he will persue me or our marriage. I believe he will be one of those that will go out and find a new girl immediately to feel better. I am not going to let myself be hostage to such immaturity. I will let him be hostage to it. I am standing in what is right now. Right now, who he is can be his problem and God bless the girl he seeks to fool.

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Good for you!  You did a great job.  Hang in there and stay strong and don't let him drag you down.  So proud of you.  Coming from a place of strength is the only hope for him and your marriage, and really, for you.  Stay connected and keep us posted.  Don't give up on the process.  He may not like it and that is his choice.  You are still doing the right thing. 

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Thank you. I will stay connected because unlike him, I am well aware of where I go wrong for myself (and him in the big picture). I end up losing the big picture. I get worn down by his wrong actions and I end up acting from the off balance, self doubt. Then I persue him, I apologize and want our marriage. This only enables him to stay the same and that brings me pain. My challenge walking this out is not giving into the what his immaturity has created in me....that unresolved pain in need of healing. Only, it won't get healed by me taking responsibility for HIS limitations. For now, I can only focus on keeping what its done to me in check and not fear the hurt. I can't rely on him with it as is anyway so I would only be going to the devil to try and stop it so to speak. That isn't healthy is it? Plus, I deserve to have a husband who wants to stop it. Yet I don't. So whats the difference when I give in? It doesn't stop it.


Its hard for me when he tells me I hurt him. I'm determined to not accept that though. I mean times I've left before, he says that yet his actions arent those of a hurt man. They are those of an immature, low character 15 year old having his party time. I am just talking out loud right now of how it goes in the past so that a week from now, if I start feeling hurt I can read my own words and remind myself that this is how it has always gone and I can do it different. I can remind myself that this is my part of this journey that I can walk through and that what he does the same as usual, is expected and not anything for me to act upon except to stay stronger in my NEED for better. If he's not on board, I can have better by keeping him out of my world because with him or without him, its the only way to better! Right now, hes showing hes not on board. I have to stay on board from this place. That has to be my focus. Thats the place of strength. And i have to let myself talk about when I feel weak to safe people because that is from a place of strength too.


Ok, I can do this!

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This morning was rough.  My husband asked me if I would tell him one more time, why I'm "so miserable."  Oh this rubbed all the unresolved hurt wrong.  I cannot stand it when he describes me as "so miserable."  As if I am a miserable person that he puts up with and has to deal with like he's such a great guy!  But, in spite of the fact that this is what that says to me, I put that aside and let myself take the bait.  I put it aside and viewed his effort as sincere.  Big mistake, as usual.  As usual, I'm left experiencing it as I know it to be.  His questions are a set up.  No matter how I answer it, I'm left on my head, uncared for and with more blame and "poor him....I'm just never happy with anything he does." 


I told him that whenever I tell him something that has hurt me, I don't do so to put distance between us.  I do so, I come to him because I am wanting closeness.  A connection.  For him to HEAR what he did, how he did it so he can DO IT DIFFERENT in the future....that's all it is.  That if he hears me, ONLY me and then understands that something he did caused something negative in me so he can then ASSURE me he won't do that again, then it's better, I feel close.  IT'S THAT SIMPLE. 


Let's look at how simple that is....without any complicated subject matter.  Not even something big or long standing.  It would look like this:


ME:  Hey husband, when you made that joke this morning, it hurt my feelings (created a negative feeling)


HIM:  Oh?  It did?  Can you tell me what about it hurt your feelings because I had no idea it would


ME:  Yes, I just felt put down.  Put downs aren't funny to me.  It didn't feel like a joke, it felt like a put down.


Him:  I'm sorry.  I won't joke that like again.  I do not ever want you to feel put down by me.


THE END!!!  Assuming the person really never does it again.  However, in that moment, all better.....I FEEL CLOSE and the negative gone.  IT IS THAT SIMPLE.  WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT THAT? 


But with him?  Even in something simple, it goes like this:


Me:  when you joked like that, it hurt my feelings


Him:  no it didn't.  I would never hurt your feelings.  It was a joke and you know it.


me:  maybe it was but it hurt my feelings, I didn't think it was funny


Him:  so now you don't even like my sense of humor. I can't even be myself.  I have to watch everything I say because you are so touchie. 


Me:  can't you just hear me and care?


Him:  I do care.  I've proven to you I care.  It's never good enough.


Me:  can't you just apologize


Him:  all I do is apologize.  I spend all my time walking on egg shells around you and apologizing.  You just want to find something to be unhappy about


Me:  No, I don't and what you're doing right now isn't helping.  you're making it more than it had to be.  Can't you just let it be cleared up


Him:  always has to be your way, you know everything and you are just so miserable with me.  you think I'm such a horrible person


me:  no, I thought you'd care if something hurt my feelings


Him:  what about me?


me:  what about you?


him:  I have to keep how I feel to myself or world war 3 will start.  I can never tell you how I feel you won't care but you have to point out the dumbest things.


me:  I listen to how you feel all the time.  I address it.  Why do you always bring stuff like this up when I mention that you hurt my feelings


Him:  because it reminds me of how much I have to keep bottled up because of you.  All you care about is yourself. 


me:  that's odd coming from you.  It's like you always tell me things about myself that describe you, it's odd


Him:  LOOK IN THE MIRROR.  I'm so sick of you coming to me and expecting something you never do.  you're the biggest hypocrite


me:  ok, let's drop it.


Him:  now that I brought something up you want to drop it?  unbelievable.  I'm sick of your accusations and you've pushed me too far



That isn't anything that happened this morning but it's a carbon copy of exactly how it goes.  Everytime. 


Put in it's place something that has REALLY hurt me.  And it'll be the same only explosive and his blame will be BIGGER and harsher and with awful definitions of who he says I am and what I'm doing.  It never leaves start.  It actually stays on start with more weight on me.


Why did I bother answering his question this morning?  I had no hope.  I wasn't delusional.  Why?  Because I'm not dead enough inside.  I'm still a woman first.  I'm thinking this is supposed to be a good thing.  Yet around him, IT'S NOT.  What else can I do but remove myself from how unsafe he is?


I even told him today as he was doing it, I put my hand up and said, "why don't you pray, ask God.....here's what your prayer would sound like based on what you're expressing to me and doing to me, "Dear God, I asked my wife a question.  She thought I was going to care about her answer or at a minimum, she thought I wanted to hear it.  She had enough life left in her, enough desire for me to answer it.  I told her how wrong she was for it but she doesn't see it.  God, could you please show her how wrong she is to take me seriously and answer a question I asked her honestly?"


His response to that was, "You exaggerate and don't get it.  I cannot understand your venom."  My venom?  I was calm, I answered him clearly and in three sentences.  He started.  I put my hand up and said that about praying and that's what his prayer would sound like.  venom?  That response brought venom up in me though......I held it back however.  You know why?  Because I'm invisible to him.  I would rather poke my eyes out with hot forks than give him the satisfaction of pointing at me and saying, "see how you are." 


He's a nut job.  He's crazy.  He doesn't see himself yet that's all he talks about.  He really believes he's a good Christian person.  He thinks I am his number one priority and that he shows me how important I am to him everyday and I am just ungrateful and can't stand him.  He believes I am looking for excuses to not be with him.  He is delusional about himself.  He thinks all I say is "blame."  It is not.....it's just "can you not do this so I can feel as if you love me."  If I never hear the word blame come out of his mouth again it'll be too soon!!  the words blame and fault I've grown to dislike because of him.  It's all he cares about while saying at the same time, "I don't care about blame or fault, it can all be my fault....."  He contradicts himself in the same sentence and in the same action.  He has conflicting words, actions and beliefs all in the same afternoon and this changes like the wind.  I think he's certifiably disturbed.  He isn't ever how it is, he is how he says given whatever he's hearing.  Regardless of many actions that disprove what he thinks of himself as or any of his very own words....on again, off again.  Here, there.  Over, under.  Up, down.  In, out.  I never know.  I try to believe one way.....BAM, I say, "that hurt my feelings...." and suddenly it's another.  He'll give me something only to take it.


IT'S CRAZY!  I don't even know if I love him, what there is to love.  Sure, he's charming and sweet and giving.....or so it'll appear for a limited amount of time.  He can even be funny and fun.....for a limited amount of time.  When the time is up, who brings out the other side?  Well me of course.....why?  cuz I thought the good stuff was real.


What's real?  What isn't?  Who is he? 


Ever not know whose who?  It's scary.  Ever doubted your own reality?  That's scarier. 


I've wondered if it is me......maybe I am and do do what he says?  I've tried to believe that.  I do it his way assuming it is but nothing changes.  I wish it were me.  If it were, it would have been fixed long ago.  I think?  See, he gets in me....I'm willing to accept it's me.  I've always been willing to accept this and have.  He hasn't ever been willing to do that.  Not for real.  He's to weak.


He's so arrogant and right and better than and on and on.  He thinks that is strength.  "Oh look at her, all out of control with her emotions......she's so weak...."  and I see the disgust in his face.


Yet he isn't disgusted with himself and the foul language that's come out of his mouth to me or the fear in my face when he's screaming and punching walls or shoving me.  He's not disgusted by one single thing about himself and the list is endless.  But he's disgusted by the my hurt or my emotions.  He isn't disgusted by his actions that don't reflect those of a married, Christian man or father.  But he's disgusted by my hurt and mistrust those actions of his have brought.  He's not disgusted by the way our daughter is uneasy about him and how she doesn't feel safe with him or even trust his "jokes" to be safe.....but he's disgusted by me because he says I did that to her.  He's not disgusted with himself that after all he's put us through and all the hurt he's brought me, that he's taken from me over the past five years instead of put into me while I care for our son with a terminal disease.  He's not disgusted with himself all the times he's stayed out drinking and entertaining the crowd while our son was fighting a battle but he's disgusted when I leave and he doesn't get to see his son everyday. 


This is all just so backwards.  None of it is right.  I don't even care about fair.....I'll settle for less twisted and disturbing.  Fair?  ha..... I don't even want or need even.  JUST LESS DISTURBING.  Even that's too much.


He's a nut job.  I see nothing more in him.

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He's so unsafe for me (as in, in my head/emotions/heart/path, that I honestly don't think talking to him at all is good for me at this time with where I am.  I can't talk about issues or what I want.....it will suck me in and I will end up in a not so good place.  It takes from me.  To talk about nothing or his day or just life.....well then I get sucked in because there is the side of me that enjoys and likes and cares and loves and I LIKE LIFE.  But to go about it with him, with all this stuff under the surface, is only a false sense of security waiting to hurt me, so that's not good for me.  If I look for that balance, live life, go slowly and in the moment bring it up....same thing, ANY slight issue, not good.


I think the safest place for me right now is shut him out, no talking, not letting him in at all.  Not even "business" subjects.  That's what attorneys are for.  His business is winning.  That isn't safe.


I think that is from strength because I'm honoring my weakness, my need for health. 

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Why I'm at it, things are flooding my mind and I'm expressing them here.  I would go on a nice, fast walk or jog in order to release them but it's pouring outside......our mouth is a vessel, an instrument that expresses our thoughts, our heart, who we are.....just a few days ago, my husband put on his suit for work.  He looks down and then said, "Look..."  pointing to a soiled looking spot on his pants.  It didn't stand out, it was tiny and I'd not have noticed it had he not pointed.  I actually had to say, "what?"  and squint as he told me there was a spot.  So I said, "oh...."  I mean what was  I supposed to say?  All of this exchange is being said in very normal conversing....no tense feelings, a fine moment.  Then he asked in all seriousness with a rather exasperated tone, "You hung this up with a spot on the pants?"  I replied, not offended in any way, "um....I didn't notice it obviously."  he then asked me if I could get something to get it out as he changed into another suit.  I did.  Then he told me to put it in with his dry cleaning things.  I did.


Seems harmless.  But it's a harmless reflection of his mentality.  First of all, I HAPPILY hang up his suits every day.  No complaint, no need for a thank you.  It's my pleasure to do so.  Why?  Because it's a show of my care....of being grateful that he provides for me in a way that allows me to stay home with our children.  But his mentality is so stuck...... he's so sensitive to blame that he doesn't accept any responsibility.  Obviously he dropped something on those pants last time he wore the suit, while at lunch.  That happens.  He forgot, he set his suit where he sets all of them when he takes off his work clothes, for me to hang up.  I did.  Then when he goes to wear it again, he thinks, "you hung this up even though there was something on them?" 


hahaha.  His inability is that thick.  Now, I wouldn't point that out to him, it would be nit picking.  I wouldn't even get all emotional in the moment, just like I didn't.  When does it stand out ?  When something big happens and all those dots in my memory connect and I face just how unappreciated I am and just how thick his issues are. 


Seriously, if that were me, I would have thought, "oh, I forgot I dropped something on this and had you hang it up......."  But him?  He thinks, "YOU hung these up with a spot on them, and I would have walked out the door with them on had I not noticed....."


He not only thinks it, he says it.  "I hung up his suit with a spot on the pants......" 


He will say he appreciates everything I do.  In a moment.  But in reality, he hasn't a clue.

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Hi Overwhelmed,


I am so sorry he did that to you. Joel did many things like that. It's crappy. Very crappy. He definately could have simply changed his suit without saying a word and then asked if you were going out would you drop it off at the dry cleaners or simply dropped it off himself.


I treated Joel like I wanted to be treated, sadly, that was not played back to me the same way.


Joel used to say to me " You give to me and then you have to look to God to bring it to you through "other sources." What?????


I used to think 'you want me to bless you and then ask God to bring someone along to bring "that " back to me???? I am to get my needs met from "God/someone else????" Hugs, smiles, kisses, compliments, holding hands, etc?????


Man, was I really confused.


My heart goes out to you. I'm sorry! You don't deserve this!


I'm praying for you! Please feel free to speak up on tonights call if you would like.


4 P's



Play and



We need to set up a plan for you.


There are only 3 ways to go here.

1. Stay in it the way it is

2. Stay in it and continue to speak up.....requiring ya'll to get on the calls to get the continued help. Watching dvds, reading the books, etc.

3. Walk out for the purpose of restoration.


You need a game plan for your life. Staying in it the way it is, really shouldn't be an option. That is too much stress, to much cortisol.


Keep forcusing out like we have talked about....and lets get a game plan in place for you.


I've got to get off now, it's almost time for the call.


Blessings my friend.


GIVE your children lots of hugs and kissess, especially that adorable, over the top blessing, Brother.

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I don't think the first two are options. Why would I subject myself to continuing to speak up? Why would I continue to persue change? He should do that, he doesnt. I think its number three but i do not believe he will attempt to restore a thing. Hes told me many times if I am gone, its over.... so I am thinking that'll be that and so be it. I am not going to believe he will see the light or be uncomfortable, he doesnt think he loses anything if I check out, he believes its my loss and hes a victim of me. So how about number three without aany illusions of restoration? I mean thats like setting myself up to believe some day will come that he will decide to choose his family? Haha. I'd rather not hold on to something hes never done.... and even said he wont do that way. Since hes so in love with what he SAYS and since he is so stuck on his words and is convinced hes right and his thoughts are straight, why shouldnt I be? So how about number three without deluding myself?

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Hello, Overwhelmed,


You are seeing things just the way they should be seen and I completely understand your feelings here! But it's not a matter of deluding yourself.. it's one more window of grace for him to come to his senses. When you "walk out for the purpose of restoration" you are really walking out for your own sanity and protection  -quietly knowing that your heart is reserved and open to reconciliation, for a season, should he choose to accept that. It's very structured. You are not left dangling and hoping and there are people helping you each step of the way!


Walking out is just the wake-up call that opens the door to new possibilities. many times when passive/arrogant men talk like yours has done ('if you leave, it's over") it's just because they are walking in fear and trying to throw the first punch!


if you "keep your love on" but set firm boundaries, it's the best chance he has to get it together!

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Thank you, I get it a little more clearly now (frustration or emotion in a moment block that).


For example, pointing out that passive/arrogant men can say that type of thing to throw the first punch... I hadnt really thought of that out of the emotion it creates in me. When he says it, he does so with such an "above that" air that it projects confidence. That air creates emotions in me that feel beneath his confidence because I couldn't imagine saying the kinds of things he does to someone I love with such a haunty flare. So I see now, they serve a purpose. Comments like that he has made, over time, have created an insecurity in me. From this place in me, I hear his words as confident and certain and absolute. I see him as strong and I feel weak. Him above, me beneath and needy. So him saying things like that, over time, grew this place in me. It serves his dysfunction and keeps me emotionally anxious. Its why he can even imply in some veiled way, "if you do that, its over..." and I will not push. Am I stepping out and seeing this more accurate?


So the "walk out for hope of reconciliation" means to remove myself from his safety bubble that enables him to stay stuck and immature because it harms me and I can't reach him. Maybe he will at least be motivated to wake up. If he does, I can be open to seeing if hes sincere. If he doesnt, then it was for the best for myself also because as is, is not a life. If he doesnt wake up, it isnt because I walked out and "pushed him too far" or hurt him/us and didnt believe his warning threats. Its bevause he is too stuck and unwilling to conquer or let go of the hold of his dysfunction... his choice.



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. If he doesnt, then it was for the best for myself also because as is, is not a life. If he doesnt wake up, it isnt because I walked out and "pushed him too far" or hurt him/us and didnt believe his warning threats. Its bevause he is too stuck and unwilling to conquer or let go of the hold of his dysfunction... his choice.



YES! YES! and YES! you got it!! The biggest temptation is to believe that we have more power than we really do.. you can't keep him stuck or lost or drive him away or hurt him too much- unless he had already made those decisions. He does it to himself. :)

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Yup, you got it. :)


There's another benefit to the whole thing . . . if he chooses to stay stuck, you will know that you gave him every chance. If it does come down to divorce, you have to be able to sleep at night. You can't spend the rest of your life with what if? That's important, because if it comes to divorce, he will probably tell everyone it's your fault. You have to know you did everything you could, or the doubts will creep in.


Stay strong.

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Ok. Went to attorney. Not just a consult. I told the atty that he will try to stall on producing financial info to avoid paying the correct amount of temporary child support much less final. So I gave him the most current tax return (business and personal) and asked that he file for immediate temporary child support while the rest of the process takes its course. I left the house (kids with me) and I did not give him a heads up. Since the intensive (even during that weekend) I have had to use the truth of, "I interprut that as you are refusing this path, if thats the case, I will make it offical...." he would back down and resentfully pretend to follow the path. After this weekend and his stand, having made the act of "making it offical" spoken at least 6 times, I didnt see the point in opening the door to getting sucked into him sucking me into his verbal no win rounds. So, I took action and will let that speak. Hes texted me a few times, "what should we do for dinner..." and I feel like I am being misleading but i responded honestly without giving him the information "I have not thought about dinner." I could completely ignore him but I didnt want him coming home to see if I was ok if I ignored him (ie to see why I havent responded) until I as gone. So is it appropriate to ignore him from here or rather, inappropriate to not tell him? I sort of thought my action would show him? Plus, I struggle to not get sucked in when speaking and I do not know how it happens, he can confuse everything quickly to the point I don't remember what the point was. So many twists and turns and odd things that I would rather not even "go there" or put me there right now.

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I completely agree with how you are doing things.  I know what you are talking about with not getting sucked into the craziness, where you don't even remember what the discussion was about.  I think that interacting so that he will not get suspicious is a good idea.  Then you can shut down and see where it goes.  You are doing such a great job.  I know that a lot of my own frustration came from the fact that I never had the strength to do what you are doing.  But God worked things out for us without us having to go down that road.  But HD did not throw down as your husband has.  That is such an important part of the process.  And even for your husband to "resentfully" follow the plan is not really doing it.  Yes, most/all husbands struggle with resentment at some point... it is normal.  But there is a point where they need to be willing, despite the resentment, too.  He does not seem to be there.  If HD called this ministry a "cult" or made rude comments about it, that would have been it for me (in addition to the other things that were going on).  Hang in there!!  ((hugs!!))))

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