How do I do this

[Looney_Tunes]

Your wife says you refuse to fully commit to this process until you feel you understand it. OK, here is the Cliff Notes version:

 

1. You are commanded by God to love your wife as Christ loved the church and to live with her in understanding.
2. Christ loved the church by laying His life down for her. He did this without knowing if anyone would respond to what He did.
3. By consistently laying your life down - which means putting her first and making your wants and needs secondary in importance - you will help her heal from past abuses.
4. When she begins to get healed, she will naturally want to respond to your love by loving you back, and then your wants and needs will once again have equal importance in the marriage.

Which part of this do you not understand?

 

This is not rocket science. All we are asking you to do is to be the Christian man you say you are ... at home, when nobody's looking.

[fj53]

Yesterday was a bad day. I did not behave very well at all. At many times I stopped talking to my wife and did not help her in the way I should have helped her.

 

She was very upset with me. We had a long talk.

 

After being forced to realise what I was doing I said sorry, but more than that I said I wanted to be Christ like from now on.

 

She did not believe me. We went through the list you have just given me.

 

1. You are commanded by God to love your wife as Christ loved the church

 

I am committed to doing this, fully realise I have not been and would like her, if she is willing, and the forum to point out when I am not doing this.

 

 and to live with her in understanding.

 

I fully accept I have not being doing this, but I do want to.

 

2. Christ loved the church by laying His life down for her.

 

I lay down my life for my wife, this is not just some bland statement, it means I stop allowing what is happening around me to change how I behave towards my wife.

 

He did this without knowing if anyone would respond to what He did.

 

I agree that this is an unconditional commitment.

 

3. By consistently laying your life down - which means putting her first and making your wants and needs secondary in importance - you will help her heal from past abuses.

 

I place my wants and needs as secondary to hers. I fully recognise that I have not done this very much, if at all, I now want to be consistent at it.

 

4. When she begins to get healed, she will naturally want to respond to your love by loving you back, and then your wants and needs will once again have equal importance in the marriage.

 

Having equal importance is no longer a burning desire of mine.

 

We have an unexpected free day today so we are planning to spend time together looking at the threads and discussing my p-a issues.

 

Thank you for your continuing help.

[fj53]

My wife is hurting so much from these last 19 years, I so want things to be back to the wonderful first years we had but I keep messing things up.

 

I have now made a decision to listen to my wife and do what she says. I realise I need to do this to assure her of my love and commitment to her and to break me of my pride and arrogance. I am 100% committed to the programme (have to admit I was not until two days ago).

 

But of course I have not achieved what I have agreed to do. Yes she asked me three times just to concentrate on the 21 bits of advice I have been given so far in the forum. I did not do it and when I took her to the pub was not at all in tune with her, or with what she was expecting me to do.

 

I am staggered at my incompetence she is quite right to be upset with me.

 

I don’t know how to proceed, she wants me to have a light bulb moment and for it to all be back as it was in those first years. Of the bits that I have read on the forum it seems for someone like me this is not how it happens. I am now caught between trying to please my wife and only concentrate on the 21 bits of advice or reading the threads and gaining a better understanding of how I can change.

 

I fully accept I need to change, I so want to change. I know I need help to change.

 

This all sounds as if it is all about me. I don’t want it to be all about me, I sincerely want my wife to be in a better environment where she can feel loved, affirmed, safe and happy.

[Looney_Tunes]

I am now caught between trying to please my wife and only concentrate on the 21 bits of advice or reading the threads and gaining a better understanding of how I can change.

 

 

 

Please explain why this is an either-or scenario.

 

From here on out, you are to read 20 minutes per day in the thread I assigned to you. Twenty minutes. That's it.

 

The purpose of the reading is not to give you another excuse to live inside your head and ignore your wife. You already have plenty of those. The purpose of the reading is to teach you these concepts so that you can apply them in your relationship with your wife. If you memorize that entire thread but never use any of that knowledge to heal your marriage, what's the point? Why are you even bothering? And your marriage will not be healed because of what you know. It will be healed because of what you do.

 

Also, from here on out, you are to tell us 3 things you have actually done that day (or the day before, if you're posting early in the morning) to improve your marriage. If you don't, I will not respond to your post. I do not waste my time on people who ask for help, but then don't do what I have told them to do. And if you don't do anything that you can post about, that tells us that no matter how much you say you love your wife, you're lying.

[fj53]

Thank you.

 

I will do this.

 

We have guests staying with us for the next 3 days so it may not be possible to post. I will post as soon as I can and include the things I have actually done from the previous day(s).

 

In a hurry as we are off to the conference in a few minutes.

[Looney_Tunes]

We have guests staying with us for the next 3 days so it may not be possible to post.

 

 

Today I listened to my wife without interrupting, took her to the pub for a drink, and apologized for ___.

 

I started the stopwatch on my phone when I began typing that. It took 57 seconds. Somehow I'm sure you can find 57 seconds - or even 5 whole minutes! - to write a post, even when you have company.

 

When a man wants to do something, he will find a way. When he doesn't, he will find an excuse.

[fj53]

OK back from the conference (although my wife is helping clear up today – I was too exhausted to go in).

 

I have messed up just about every conversation that I have had with my wife. I do try to be encouraging, on one car journey (it takes 35 minutes to get to the conference) she said that she was concerned that if we separated then I would not fight for our marriage. I told her that I loved her and would fight (am fighting) for a good marriage.

 

However the conversation just went down hill, can’t remember the details but I do recall at one point she said something that I did not agree with and I spent 5 minutes thinking about it before replying.

 

I know this is wrong, I know she takes this as me punishing her. I am having great difficulty get into the practice of replying even if I don’t know what to say, just so that she has some conversation going on and feels reassured that I am not punishing her.

 

The latest area where I got things wrong was when we got near the conference and were short of time so she suggested dropping me at the front door. I said that would be a good idea. When we neared the building the car park attendant was on duty and they prefer cars not to drive up to the front door, so I asked my wife to drop me so I could walk the last little bit.

 

She got angry, said I was not trusting her. She then spoke to the car park man and he agreed to let us through. I was not gracious and was disgruntled when we got to the door. I mumbled something that I thought was an apology.

 

After a day mostly working in different places we drove home. She expected me to talk about the event, I had been thinking about other things – wrong. She was very angry that I did not apologise, that I had not spent all day thinking about how I should best apologise.

 

I tried to reassure her but I have not yet managed to give her an apology that she is feels is genuine.

 

I will post tomorrow the positive things I have done for our marriage today, well I hope they will be positive things. 

[fj53]

The database glitch will make this seems like a disjointed reply. I am just recording where we are currently at.

 

I have not yet assured my wife that I have changed, this is understandable, I have done one thing that gained me a truly positive comment from her and have assured her that I have put away my agenda. I have however not talked in detail about why I now see the agenda as wrong, nor am I consistently just doing what she has asked.

 

My wife and I had a good conversation about the bananas and water story. She correctly identified that I had misinterpreted the story. I had thought that I had been giving her service (bananas) while she had wanted conversation and intimacy (water).  She said that the story should have been interpreted as me being asked to do something by my wife (give her water) and me doing something that I thought would be better for her (bananas). She said that whenever I do something for her, if it is not what she has asked for she feels I don’t value her words.

 

I do value my wife and in no way want her to feel that I don’t value her. I will attempt in future just to do exactly what she has asked me to do.

 

I recognise that even since discussing this with her I have failed. We were dancing last night and I did not understand how to do something, my wife started to explain, I did not listen to her, and looked to a teacher who tried to explain, but I still did not get it. My wife was upset because I had not just been open to listen to what she was saying. I could put up all sorts of excuses, but they would be just that, excuses. I do so want to change and show my wife that I value her.

[fj53]

Things are just getting worse. Yesterday we had various jobs to do, my wife was out all afternoon, she left me a note with questions she wanted answered. I wrote up my answers and we discussed them last night.

 

This did not go well, too much to write about.

 

I recognise that I need help, I keep making things worse not better.

 

During our discussions my wife agreed that I could talk over the phone to someone at your ministry. I intend to join the call tomorrow night, do they still go on till midnight? If I could join at 11pm (5am my time) I might be more awake but will join at 9pm if you think that would be best.

 

I will also phone Joel and join the men’s afternoon call as soon as possible, do understand they are not free.

Edited July 9, 2014 by fj53

[MaryJane]

Temporarily, there is no call on Wednesday nights. It would still be a good idea to call Joel and have a chat, though!

 

If you write about one of the discussion questions that did not go well, maybe we could help with that one, at least.

 

You'll get this.

[JoelandKathy]

Hi FJ53, Sorry we missed your call!  Feel free to call again and this time I will answer, assuming that we are here when you call. 

 

You called this morning and that was a good time of day to call - but we let it go to voice mail. Didn't realize it was you..  the caller ID comes through odd from other countries!

 

Blessings!

 

Joel and Kathy 

386-206-3128

 

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[Looney_Tunes]

I have not yet assured my wife that I have changed, this is understandable, I have done one thing that gained me a truly positive comment from her and have assured her that I have put away my agenda.

 

 

That's because you have not changed.

 

Pro tip ... if you find yourself trying to convince your wife that you have changed, you haven't. She is not stupid. She sees how you behave. When your actions are different, no one will have to tell her, least of all you. She will go bragging to her girlfriends about how wonderful you are. Trust me.

 

I do so want to change and show my wife that I value her.

 

 

So how do you think this is going to happen?

 

I keep making things worse not better.

 

 

Why? What is the real problem here?

 

And please do not answer with what you think I want to hear. It doesn't take very long before men in this ministry learn what they are supposed to say. They become excellent parrots, and then they make no progress because they are not dealing with what they are really thinking and feeling. Your wife and I already know that you don't really believe what we teach here, and that you think she should have more responsibility in this process. Just about every guy is there at some point in this process, but we can't work through it with you because you are not really talking to us. You are simply saying I know I should listen to my wife. Well, yeah, you should. But we can't really go anywhere with that, because you are not telling us what you are really thinking and where you are struggling.

 

One of the things I often see here amongst the more passive men is the belief that somehow, knowledge just automatically translates to behavior. So you read and study and take notes and somehow feel that poof! you will just start doing the right thing. It doesn't work that way. You actually have to take control of your behavior - something you probably don't think you can do - and choose to act differently. It's the actions that will rewire your brain, not the other way around. You cannot think your way into better behavior. You behave your way into better thinking.

 

I really wish I was getting the sense from you that you want to change, but I'm not. I'm getting the feeling that you are willing to learn all of this information, but that you are not willing to actually do something with it. I'm getting the sense that you believe that the ability to spout off all the knowledge you gain here will somehow satisfy your wife. I really, really hope that is not the case, because somehow you need to see that a relationship that never touches your heart is not a relationship at all. That's what you have with your wife and with God, and neither of them are happy with it.

[fj53]

I don't know what to do for the best, I know my wife will say just listen to her - that I am finding really difficult to do at the moment.

 

My wife is really hurting, she is very upset that I am not explaining why my agenda is wrong, I have tried to work out what to say to her but I can't express it on paper, let alone talk to her about it.

 

I will talk all this through with Joel on the mens call.

[ChooseLove]

One of the things I often see here amongst the more passive men is the belief that somehow, knowledge just automatically translates to behavior. So you read and study and take notes and somehow feel that poof! you will just start doing the right thing. It doesn't work that way. You actually have to take control of your behavior - something you probably don't think you can do - and choose to act differently. It's the actions that will rewire your brain, not the other way around. You cannot think your way into better behavior. You behave your way into better thinking.

 

Very true LT.  I know that has frustrated my wife in that I have buried myself in learning, but it is only the corresponding ACTIONS that really count.  I have found once I capture a negative thought or feeling and start to be self-aware of how that affects my behavior I can now make better decisions on how I act.  Recently I started Dr. Caroline Leaf's 21 Days to Detox Your Brain, that along with her book Switch On Your Brain as well as a non-Christian, but related book, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It by Kamal Ravikant, and Super Brain has helped me to take measurable action making a huge difference in the way activate my brain.  I have started meditating and using my brain in ways I never have previously and It has started to change how my whole body feels and gives me new perspective on life.  I am able to love my wife where she is at, even when negative or discouraging thoughts start to well-up in me, I put them in their place.

 

God loves me so much he gave me this amazing woman in my life and brain and heart to love her.  I know that as I pursue God, being obedient to what he asks of me - that is to humbly love my wife, bringing healing and protection/cover to her, that my needs will be met.  There is no place for fear, control or manipulation as that is not the way God works.  It is literally dying to my old self, shedding that skin and allowing God to renew me.  It is true as Joel notes in the first book it is very hard at first, but once we lay down our defenses and love like Jesus does we will never be the same.  Give up the old life - God has a much better one planned for you fj53.  I look forward to hearing you on the Men's Call. 

Edited July 10, 2014 by ChooseLove

[fj53]

Thank you Joel for your insight and guidance. I am attempting to put into practice all that you have recommended.

 

I went up to my wife just before the alarm time this morning and cuddled her in bed. Unfortunately I started talking about what I had now seen after the call in the night. She listened for a while and then said you have spent the last 7 minutes talking about you, what about how I am feeling.

 

I said sorry, (I am really sorry I started out on the wrong foot). I told her that my agenda of not always thinking positive thoughts about her was wrong and that I had been doing it because I was jealous of her abilities. I said that she could walk into any room and talk comfortably with anyone and I was jealous of her skills. She reminded me that I should have been saying such things at the start of the conversation not after she has prompted me. I totally accepted that.

 

A little later she said that the thing that hurts most is that my love for her has not been strong enough for me to love her whatever I had been feeling inside myself. She said that during those first few years nothing overcame my love for her, why did I allow anything to overcome my love for her.

 

I said I took full responsibility for not loving her during those years. I said I have no excuse for not loving her and have no excuse for not behaving as a husband should.

 

She did allow me to give her a very warm embrace before she left the house to visit a friend.

[ChooseLove]

FJ53 - I do the same thing - talking too much and making it about ME!  I know that WOUNDS my wife.  I pray that my words be few and that my actions speak for themselves.  Constantly talking for the sake of talking, to hear yourself is  sign of a narcissist.  Yes I have come to realize I  have narcissist tendencies, being controlling, skewing things to be about me - that has to die if I am ever to win my wife's heart back.  

 

I was glad you were on the call last night as Joel covered a lot of ground that helped me too.  My mother and father divorced when I was in high school but he never emotionally connected with my Mom.  I see how being the oldest and the only son how she connected with me.  Obviously neither of us understood it just like Joel and his Mom at the time.  I now see that when I approach my wife I constantly check my motivation - is it for me to receive reassurance, control, validation or is it truly to bless her.  in the past it was primarily about me, so now I understand why she is reticent to talk with me as that is all she knows. It is a constant dying to self, seeking to meet her where she is at similar to the way Jesus comes to us and does not ask him for us to come to him.

[fj53]

Yesterday was better, we have had many good talks, she allowed me to give her a number of warm embraces and kisses.

 

I arranged for us to go out for a meal and to see a film that I knew we would both like (I did listen to her as she did not like my first choice of restaurant and changed the plans).

 

We laughed together more than we have done for ages.

 

We have had many good discussions about the situation, I answered all her questions fully. I think (and hope) that I did not make it all about me, wherever possible I asked her to expand on the subject she was talking about.

 

The film (Walking on Sunshine) was good fun and full of music we both like. The song "If I could turn back time" effected us both as my problems have caused us to waste so many years.

 

A better day but I fully recognise that I have much to do to before we can regain what we once had.

[Looney_Tunes]

Nice!

 

And it probably wasn't all that difficult, was it?

[MaryJane]

I like this direction -- forward! Don't let any stumbling or obstacles stop you. Set your face like flint. It's what Jesus did when He was heading for Jerusalem that last time. He was keeping in mind "the joy that was set before him" -- a Bride without "spot or wrinkle" -- without any feeling of rejection by her husband.

 

When your wife senses your unconditional love for her, she will begin to relax and be happy day to day -- and so will you!

[fj53]

Thank you both for your comments.

 

Interesting you should talk about my wife feeling rejected MaryJane, I now see that she has been feeling this for so many years because of the way I was being towards her.

 

Thank you Joel for much further insight and guidance on the call yesterday afternoon. I am seeing things differently now and it is having an amazing effect.

 

We were out at friends for dinner last night, the evening went very well. My wife broke a glass, pure accident, while the broken bits were being cleared from the table I moved behind her and put my hands on her shoulders to reassure her that I was not blaming her. I have been such a fool over these past few years to allow negative reactions in me to prevent me from thinking about how my wife is feeling and acting to reassure her that all is OK.

 

We came home and enjoyed being intimate, I still have much to learn in some areas.

 

I know my wife is pleased with the last day or so. However I also know that she still has big questions, quite understandably. Will he keep this up, will he revert to being Mr Hyde, what will he do the next time something happens where he would previously have been negative.

 

Another busy day ahead, out with friends this morning and dancing tonight, plenty of opportunities to put into practice the guidance I have been given.

Edited July 13, 2014 by fj53

[JoelandKathy]

I posted the reference numbers to the two mens calls from Saturday and Thursday in the quick attention board. They are private as no one but our men know that full dial in phone number. You can certainly let your bride listen to the teaching portion though if she would like! 

[fj53]

Things are still moving forward. Top Golf with our friends went well, though I only had a few opportunities to be "in contact" with my bride.

 

When we got home we listened to our favorite internet preacher then fell asleep on the sofa together, I do feel she is starting to be more relaxed with me.

 

The learning to dance session went well, in the past I have annoyed her by not listening to her. I don't think she was annoyed with me during the session.

 

Got home and I watched the World Cup final, I am not a football fan, but I do enjoy watching the game being played well. My wife just thinks it is 22 men kicking a ball around!

 

After the game I made sure she knew my attention was fully on her and I think she was pleased with what I initiated.

 

Housework day today, I must ensure that I don't drop back to my old ways.

[JoelandKathy]

For the americans around here, he means soccer!  Ha!

 

I am just playing around, of course.  "football" seems to be more appropriate than soccer..   and what would we call our "football" games in america? Hmm... maybe "pass ball" or whatever.. 

[fj53]

Thank you Joel and the others on the call last night, much good advice.

 

I will act as God would act towards my wife. I can see now how I have not been doing that.

 

Many other things to help me.

 

Will try to get her post from yesterday put on the forum today.

[JoelandKathy]

Oh my, she had your number, didn't she!  It sounds like she listened to last night's call and then wrote a post.. but she had written that post BEFORE the men's call!  and we did not see her post either as she did not post it until after the Men's call.  I think, David, that God is showing you VERY clearly that your wife and we are seeing things very, very clearly.  You're "busted" (in a loving way, of course!)  "Busted" means "caught"..    the good news, the very, very good news, is that when you are caught and if you "own" the things that are being shown to you through your bride and us..  is that you can GROW and CHANGE very quickly.    Hey, when you are discipling men about how Christ sees them as lovely, you have to picture yourself seeing your wife as Christ sees you.  That is a GREAT thing!