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thank you all so much ladies.  Hope you have all had a wonderful Christmas.  Had a small blib on Christmas eve morning as came down stairs to find he had put a card through the door (why on earth he didn't put it through the door with the stupid note the date before I don't know - but as usual whilst on the surface some would have said that was nice - it was in the circumstances totally and utterly thoughtless -  he hasn't bothered to put himself in my shoes once in all of this.  the card said You are the Perfect Wife for Me and in side he had amended the words to say he hope I would allow him to cuddle me  ............. yeh lke that's even going to be possible when you refuse to even talk to me except in front of a third party and you have said that until I am willing to show you my vulnerable side you are not willing to show me sacrificial love.

His brain must be SO confused - it's like two people are living completely separate lives in his head!   Anyway I didn't bother to respond.

And very soon my wonderful daughter and son in law picked me up and we drove down to his parents and I had the most wonderful few days with them.  they made me feel SO at home and just part of the family - just so lovely - and all their other kids and brother and partner etc - just so good.

And what was so wonderful was for the first time in more years can I can remember I felt FREE just to be myself - not to be walking on egg shells and worrying about what david was thinking about what I was saying and whether I was saying anything that David was going to judge me for and whether he was feeling comfortable and adapting my self and my behaviour to suit David so that he didn't go all silent -   just being able to freely join in the conversation and if I didn't say quite the right thing - well it didn't matter - everyone was just so lovely.


And now I am back with my daughter and her husband at their house and have been joined by my son and his girlfriend and having a lovely chilling time here being spoilt and loved and cared for.

Was most strange not cooking a Christmas dinner and doing all the prep and shopping etc - first time in well over 30 years - but you know what -   I could get used to it!!!!!!

Happy Holidays my lovely cyber sisters   GOD IS GOOD      ALL THE TIME   xxxx


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I'm happy you had a great Christmas with family!!  I didn't host anything for Christmas this year either, not one thing.  It was nice.  I don't like Christmas planning, decorations and stuff so it was nice not to feel like I had to decorate.  My daughter in law and my sister enjoyed hosting and I enjoyed being their guest. I feel sort of guilty because we still have one son at home, I feel like I should be jolly and decorate for his benefit -- that's not reasonable, he's 18 and doesn't care one way or the other, it's just my own feeling.  Anyhow, glad your Christmas was stress-free too!!  


Ladies call reminder.   This evening 7 pm your time -- 2 pm Eastern time.    

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It's all gone blue since I last logged in!  Not that that's a problem  - I love blue - my house is blue! (seriously - blue carpets blue curtains blue wine glasses blue Christmas decorations blue table mats!

Lovely that you were able to be spoilt Crystal - I will be more than happy when the kids decide its time for me to go to them rather then them coming to me. (who knows what will be from now on  I feel life will never be normal again

Well things have got no better since Christmas holidays over - in fact I feel they have got worse but maybe that's just because as each day passes when he refuses to talk to me and I don't hear his voice I just feel more hurting and lonely and rejected. 

He had a meal with my daughter and her husband (from my first marriage but lived with david since she was 5) and she was so shaken up after it.  She is not a Christian and not know to express other than trying to be balanced opinion but she said she now totally believed me (thin k she did before but also thought she knew david)  She said it was like he had the devil in him , she said there was no kindness in his eyes just hate and anger and coldness and callasness.  He was very rude to her - at one point when she was being firm with him he put his hand in front of her face and told her to leave the table as he wanted to speak to a man .  Bless him her husband totally stood up to him and protected and defended his wife - showing david how a true husband should act.

He told her that I had so many major faults that if I didn't change I was going to hell and he didn't want me to go to hell.
He denied having faults although said he mean not being affected by his childhood problems any more. (ha ha ha)

I have tried to suggest ways forward since (silly of me I know but am sure you will understand that somehow any correspondence is better than this total silent treatment for a woman) but he has just steadfastly refused to engage at all -  he has said he is seeing a life coach on 9th jan (but the guy only deals with men not couples) and he is looking forward to working on a one to one with the web pastor when he comes back off his holiday.


He amusingly believes that this web pastor and my friends (who have been mediating on the odd occasion there has been a meeting) are working with me to get me to see the error of my ways - he just doesn't comprehend that they aren't

He has now blamed our friend for him not trying to do anything pro active - said he told our friend that he wasn't going to do anything unless our friend suggested it and our friend hadn't
Totally and utterly incapable and unwilling to take any responsibility for his own actions.
Am feeling quite sorry for myself this evening.  Very weird having 4 lodgers in the house - 3 new - all just getting along and cooking for themselves etc - not a situation I have had before - feel a bit like a stranger in my own house.
I just cannot understand his mentality that allows him  to treat me like this and doesn't have a conscience about it at all   it is just such hurtful and damaging behaviour and it makes me feel so worthless and unvalued and I just still can't believe the man I fell in love with could ever have treated me like this.
It all just makes no sense to me at all today.
Am trying to keep active (been to the Amateur Dramatics today) and so loving  listening to the word and doing study and long walks and talking to My Father and making sure I have something to do each day - but I just seem to be going through the motions trapped in limbo and this just isn't life.
I can't see how it gets any different or any better.
Sorry am down in the dumps today.

I probably won't be on the phone calls for a little while - but would like to continue writing here if that's ok.

Blessed New year to you guys xxx


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great - disaster -  the south African pastor has apparently had a long conversation with david and told him that the worst thing that could have happened to our marriage was the joel and cathy manual !  (and yet joel was the only person that was beginning to have an effect on david until david withdrew).  the pastor is supposed to have got in touch with me - but he hasn't yet.  and I now do not feel at all comfortable with the concept of having a three was conversation with the two men and me -  I am going to insist on a woman being present as well.


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My dear, my dear!  I am so sorry!  Some people just don't "get it" at all! 


Would you say your husband was behaving the same way with his first wife as he is with you?


Have you been able to talk to Kathy, personally, yet?


Just a couple of questions that came to my mind. 


I don't know, but you may have to say to your husband, "This ministry or nothing".


I wish you could get talking to Kathy.  This is her cell phone number:  1(386) 334-7873

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the worst thing that could have happened to our marriage was the joel and cathy manual ! 



Sadly, pastors/counselors have found that it's easier to turn a wife into a great husband than (they think) it is to turn a man into a great husband.  We girls are often willing to forsake all, forgive all and sacrifice all, but it doesn't change anything in the marriage if the man has the option to remain a little boy.   Your husband is perfectly able to become a man of God and husband of your dreams if given the right tools, which is what Joel and Kathy generously provide.  I wonder if the pastor would be willing to talk to Joel?  

Edited by Crystal
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thank you ladies -  I honestly have no idea any more - obviously there was something wrong in the first marriage to make her look to another man - but at the time as that other man was my husband!! I didn't have any sympathy as to why she might have needed to look elsewhere!

I have no idea if the minister Bertie will talk to Joel - he has asked to talk to me so I can but ask him.


No I haven't spoken to Kathy -  


I have made it clear that I would like david to get back in touch with this ministry - but if there is a viable alternative that offers the same type of way forward that sounds to him more "unbiased" then I would be willing to try that route.


He has told people that he thinks this ministry is biaised towards women - and of course still has the firm opinion that if only he could introduce me to Joel and Cathy personally they would see how difficult and proud I am and how I am different and how their one size fits all just doesn't apply to our situation because in our situation it really is me and not him who is the problem.

He is off to a life coach on Friday morning -   not holding my breath.


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Well interesting day - we went to marriage guidance counselling for the first time.  The counsellor is very good (albeit very expensive) and I feel safe with him.  We have undertaken to do 10 sessions.  What concerned me most was the weird behaviour of David  - If I was worried he might have some mental issues or a religious spirit before - they are much re inforced now.

I saw him behave towards the counsellor about a general question over money in a way I have NEVER seen David behave before, most odd.  And David was unable to correctly answer the simplest of questions that I KNOW he knows the answer to like the ages of his children (and it was Peter's birthday only two days ago) and how he first asked me out.  Most weird Most weird.  Also didn't know our wedding anniversary date and he is the one who knows that more than I do!  Most most odd.

Anyway nothing I can do about that as he wouldn't listen to me.  Hopefully the counsellor may be able to pick up on that one as the sessions continue -  I will certainly ask for a review earlier than the ten weeks as they are very expensive and it would be a waste of money if a medical issue is involved as we are never going to get anywhere obviously.


Anyway we are meeting once a week for the next ten weeks so watch this space!

NIght night all


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Second session and from my point of view it was good - the counsellor had got an excellent accurate grasp of the situation from the information we had both sent him as requested - and he was spot on in ALL the stuff he was saying to us.

My fear is that a) David won't "hear" what is being said - he certainly showed no signs of hearing the words
 and B) won't like what is being said. and won't be willing to try anything suggested.

But I am confident that the counsellor is good and on the right path and I don't feel unsafe or threatened in any way.

Keep up those prayers folks that the light bulb comes on and revelation is received.


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Yes indeed MaryJane - it was as if the counsellor was reading from a script I could have written - there wasn't one thing he said that I didn't agree with wholeheartedly (and haven't been saying to David myself for years).  Sadly though this may not be  helpful if david switches off because he thinks the counsellor is biaised.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I found answering the questionannaire very cathartic - it reaffirmed me after so many years of being told how dreadful I am.


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second week and once again the counsellor was absolutely singing from the same song sheet as me.  He totally identified the root cause and all his language was aimed at getting David to see what the basic problem was..  He identified so many issues so well and explained to David in such clear and easy terms.  Explaining that David had become emotionally absent from our relationship and buried himself in work because that was the easiest thing for him to do as a man - because work was more straight forward than doing relationship which is confusing and woolly around the edges etc -  explaining that David didn't have a clear idea as to why our relationship worked so well in the beginning  thus didn't understand why went things went wrong that the same thing he had done in the good years no longer worked etc.    The counsellor was so spot on and so excellent and clearly and slowly explaining everything just right.


David sat there nodding in agreement but so sadly at the very end the counsellor asked a question - if you could go back 19 years David what would do you differently - and David's answer ...... well I would have changed my job.  WOOSH  everything the counsellor had painstakingly explained - totally missed by David.

NOOOO DAVID - it was NEVER about the job  don't blame the job  it wasn't the job - take responsibility for your own actions - don't blame it on the job, on Beverly on anything else - if you had a job stacking shelves you would have still ploughed all your effort into the job rather than the relatiionshp - it had very little to do with whether the job was tiring and challenging - it was about how you chose to prioritise your life.

He doesn't see that until he can acknowledge the root cause (and not to make him feel guilty or a failure or worthless or that I want him just to keep saying sorry or that I am wanting to put him down or control him) but until he can identify and admit to himself what the root cause is - then there is no way we can begin to mend the relationship.


So 8 more weeks to go - please pray for breakthrough - please pray that David clicks and gets it rather than being so resilient to the truth and so bitter against me.


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Sorry I haven't been around here for awhile! Good to see that YOU are in a safe place with a good counselor. Yes, I will pray for breakthrough. Usually the "root" is a deeply held bitter judgment against mothers. wives and women in general. Pray for God's pinpoint and specific LIGHT to enter his mind and heart. Pray for HOLY FIRE to consume the chaff that would try to obfuscate the issues. I have a feeling that no matter the turnout here, that God has a very special purpose in aligning you with this counselor.

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thank you for that wonderful prayer - I say a hearty AMEN to that


And you are absolutely right about the counsellor - hearing about him was a real God incident so I have no doubt that it was supposed to be him.

The only annoying thing was that I believe I should have done something early to implement this - as the Lord brought the counsellor to my attention in the summer - and maybe I should have arranged counselling then befor David came up with his non communication ban and moved out

Oh well hindsight is a wonderful thing  and God isn't judging or condemning me (unlike my husband)!  And God works for the good in any situation we get ourselves into


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Oh well hindsight is a wonderful thing  and God isn't judging or condemning me (unlike my husband)!  And God works for the good in any situation we get ourselves into

That's true! So, no looking back at that and no condemning yourself! You were hoping not to need a counsellor, right? You meant well.


So glad you are hearing good confirming words from him! It's great to have wise counsel right in front of you like that. Your husband sure needs to Hear!


May you be blessed with freedom from slipping into any bitterness as well as the freedom to rest in the joy and peace of The Lord!

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How stupid stupid stupid of me to think anything had changed.  What a fool I am.  We didn't discuss the email  at all – on reflection think it was my “reward” for abiding by his rules this week of not trying to engage in relational communication.


The counsellor spent the hour and a half talking about how we needed to revisit the “balcony” moment as David had said it was a defining moment in our relationship  and that we couldn’t really discuss anything that had happened in the 17 years since this moment (the balcony incident happened two years after the relationship started going wrong) until we had discussed and “rescripted” this moment – ie talked about it  hear each other’s perspective  tried to put ourselves in each others’ shoes – talked about how we could both have dealt with it differently etc.  We briefly talked about it in the meeting but didn't start this exercise.


This was really positive and once again – only what I have been trying to say for 19 years – all David heard was – Oh No this Means  Beverly Gets Away scot free and we don’t get to discuss all her faults and I have to say it’s all my fault (his perception is just so warped) and at the end of the hour and a half – with 5 minutes to go before the end of the session – he just says – “Well you know why I’m not prepared to do this yet don’t you”

The Counsellor looked astonished – and now we have to spend next week with a flip chart listing david’s ground rules before he is willing to enter into this discussion.


I spent the meeting really carefully acknowledging as much as I could that I accepted my errors and that I could have done stuff differently,  I was so careful to try and show that I accept responsibility for my actions and that I know I have done things wrong and that I know I don't respect David any more and I should do etc etc - a) because I mean it and b)to make David feel that I wasn’t saying I was right all the time – I don’t think it had any effect whatsoever

Also the counsellor asked why I referred to this lack of communication as a punishment as he was sure that David didn’t see it like that – I said that sadly I believed he did because he has said that it was only like a Good father would punish a naughty child.

The Counsellor asked David if he had said this – and David then happily spent the next fifteen minutes happily describing a scenario with my son where he woudn’t  do his piano practice and how david kept him in the room and wouldn’t let him out until he did it – and how alex (my son) was probably in the room throwing the music around and saying it was all david’s fault but actually it was alex;s fault and if he had done his practice it would have all be solved – and then david said that’s all he was doing to me – and that it was perfectly acceptable ………  the counsellor chose his words very carefully and said “I don’t want to question your parenting skills but are you aware that that was “one” way of dealing with the piano practice issue – and that there were other ways – but actually that is was never appropriate to deal with your spouse that way……. It just all went over david’s head and he didn’t even say – Oh really why not or anything -  he just didn’t engage in what the counsellor said.  And he isn’t good at picking up facial expression or body language – a normal person would have picked up on Brett’s body language whilst david was talking and adapted the message somewhat  - not David – no sign whatsoever that what he was saying was very perturbing to Brett!!!




When will this pain and suffering and punishment ever stop -  can I last for the next 7 weeks or do I walk away now at the moment I don't even want to turn up next week  just what's the point.

The counsellor is excellent and saying all the right stuff (and a lot of the same stuff as Joel - like recognising his superimposing his mum on me etc)  - and David just doesn't want to listen -  I don't even recognise this man -

So yet another week of complete and utter rejection and hurt and pain and sorrow and being ignored and blanked and punished (and it's valentines' day on Saturday - that will be painful - but hey have coped with my birthday and Christmas so will cope with valentines day.)
Praise the Lord for His strength to see me through each day - without him I would be dead or in a mental institution by now.


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My dear lady!  I'm sorry, so sorry.  Your husband is stamping his foot and having a long-lasting tantrum.  He's GOT to have his way or his whole world might fall apart.


I think you either wait out the whole 7 weeks of counselling and then divorce your husband, suddenly and hard, in case that jars him enough to want to change -- or -- you divorce him now, suddenly and hard, hoping beyond hope for a change in his outlook.  From my viewpoint here, it doesn't look like he has any intention of moving an inch.  He intends to be your god and personal tyrant, and that's it. 


Of course, you have to be satisfied in your own mind and heart as to what to do and when to do it.  We'll be here no matter what you choose.


I wouldn't be surprised if the counselor resigns from your case before the 7 weeks are up.  He would, naturally, cite lack of co-operation by the husband.


God bless you, Les Mis, with that continued peace and even joy, from The Lord!

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