FallenKnight

Miss Elizabeth, great post on damsel's string about passive aggressive men. Thanks.

In our reading (and subsequent conversation) today two questions arose. Sometimes, I feel back into a corner as she wants to see what's in my heart and pursues it by asking a question or trying to evoke a response that would confirm what she needs/wants to hear. Problem arises when what she wants to hear is not what is in my heart or to the degree that she wants it to be. So, as I struggle to abide by the it's not about me and my feelings but about her I would rather not answer at all or at least I try to answer with the positive that is true (but, will not be what she wants) .... So, do I share my true feelings when they're negative or just be avoid answering? Second, question; Do I lie and tell her what she wants to hear?

Mary Jane, I'm sure you mean well. Didn't quite understand, though, where you're coming from in writing `oozing oppression` and `you sure need to get over yourself'.

I know I need to make this commitment and I am working doing that. I don't want it to be just words. I have said the right words to you in the past and then didn't follow through because my heart was not totally committed to the words I knew were right, the words I would like to live up to but nevertheless failed to do. So, I'm working on it. As for putting my heart and feelings out here on display that's against the rules. It's not about me it's about you. So, whatever I'm dealing with, I'll just deal with it. I apologize for my attitude coming across as boring. I personally felt fine on the outing. I actually felt calm and at ease, enjoyed the peaceful walk around the lighted square. The girls seemed fine with me as the each came up to walk with me at times and hug. You can act silly and break out at times. That's fine but it's not me, especially not now in my life. Just because I'm not bouncing around with a half dozen teenagers doesn't mean I'm in a bad mood. Quiet, yes. Serene, yes. Pensive, yes. Bad, not necessarily. But, I'm really sorry if it came across that way and ruined your evening. Though I image it was your interpretation based on all your pain from our relationship that led to that interpretation. For that I am truly sorry.

Joshua & Kimberly, we'll be there. It would really help us to be on first as we are three hours later than eastern time. So, it'll actually be midnight for us.

I just want to register that I have read your post (as well as everybody else's). I hear your pain and I feel it. I am struggling against my selfish, self-centeredness to try to get back in the practice of the above habits (which includes your reminder about the forum - thus this post). I do not make any excuses for my behavior, nor explanations - do defense or appearance of a defense. Accept my guilt. I do not ask you to be patient with me. Do what you have to do and I will do what I have to to keep moving forward as best I can. As you aptly perceived yesterday morning in our conversation, my heart is presently hardened and unwilling to feel. Honestly, I don't want to go where your pain will lead us. Doesn't mean I won't. Just that I feel a strong resistance to going there. I'm still in the garden asking God to `take this cup from me`, working on the courage to submit to his will not mine. (for new readers, this is a reference to an earlier post about the Via Dolorosa - please don't take it out of context). I'm still in the battle, struggling with battle fatigue from the various battle fronts we have been facing in recent years. But, I haven't given up. Still breathing, still struggling with my carnal, self-centered man every day. Well, I have written more than I thought I would (or could). The things I can't say seem to block the way for the positive things you need to hear (not to mention the things you need to see).

Okay, here they are in writing. 20/20/20 (smiles, hugs & kisses) daily Read 10 min daily DVD 60 min weekly phone call 30 min weekly work on the L.O.V.E. ( or Nair version) work on Listening to you without cutting you off or being defensive work on meeting your need for touch. These are the things I gleaned from looking back from the posts on my string. If there is something I am leaving out let me know.

I just noticed last night that a new page had started on my string. So, damsel, I just saw your message from the 21st last night. I thought about it as I lay there awake in the early hours this morning and during my extra long walk this morning I thought about and began forming a response. But, before I put it here on the forum (and I plan to send it to by email as well) I want to make sure that I have thought this through and that I word it well. I don't what you say in any way as a threat or ultimatum. It does bring an exclamation point to our situation though. Over the past months I have been trying to do a reality check about the near future. What my desires are. What your desires and needs are that you have expressed about this point in our lives. What the realistic options are for us for the next few years. What our priorities should be during the next few years. I'll try to put that down in writing as best I can over the next couple of days.

Thanks for the feedback Abigail. The reference to can't wait to get the day over with was not strictly to damsel's situation but that I knew that we were both still tired and needed to get a some rest for another full day Saturday. I know she is struggling with several feelings in our family relationships so I try not to take everything personally, trying to see it from everybody's perspective as best I can. It seems that she left for dance class this morning sad and tired still. We'll see how the day goes after she returns.

Actually, it is work. Today doesn't seem to be going to well for damsel. She woke up sad and has been sad off and on throughout the day. Seems we made it through the company but are exhausted. Our oldest daughter is starting her first job next week. Yesterday and today I spent a few hours helping her get things in order to finish her application process. Even got to have lunch just the two of us. But, have been tired (woke up in the middle of the night and wasn't able to go back to sleep) so napped when I got home this evening. Still feeling groggy though. Took damsel with me to fulfill some obligations I had. She still seems to feel down and easily offended by the rest of us. I'm trying to stay connected but seems I talk when I shouldn't and don't communicate when I should. Looking forward to going to bed with her and getting this day over with.

Damsel, don't ever feel like you have to walk on eggs to say what you need to say. I agree, I may not always respond like I should but what I what learn to if I don't get the chances to work on it. I have thought back to that night of the counseling call trying to figure out what set me down the rode to that attitude. Not giving excuses here. When you came into the bathroom while I was getting out of the shower having just called the counselor I felt exposed (though I know I couldn't be seen) yet, instead of communicating that to you and to just give me a second to get dressed I made the turn down irritable lane. I know that you were feeling anxious about the time and taking advantage of the short amount we had to talk. I sorry that I made that call more difficult. No need to worry, I'm not going to punish you for your post and be distant while our guest are here.

Well, I made it all the way through her list. Some days the attitude was good some days not so good. I did totally put the things I wanted to get done with work aside so as to get her honey do list done. One thing I have concluded from the last few days is that I need to work on watching my tone of voice and facial expressions when I exhausted and tired. Obviously, I don't realize the difference between tired and/or frustrated and being grumpy, but will work on it.

Damsel, I can see I have so neglected you over the years and that this wound is so sensitive that there is zero tolerance for not giving you my full attention whenever you walk in the room. Forgive me for not turning off the tv immediately and coming over to welcome you into a new day.

Brian, what you write reminds me of Isaiah 50.10-11 10 Who is among you that fears the Lord, That obeys the voice of His servant, That walks in darkness and has no light? Let him trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God. 11 Behold, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with firebrands, Walk in the light of your fire And among the brands you have set ablaze. This you will have from My hand; And you will lie down in torment. The New American Standard Bible, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1977. I guess this is what they call 'living by faith'.

Thanks for all the responses. Seems like this has been the most activity ever on my string. LargeOne, hope you didn't take previous thoughts as an attack or minimizing your success. I went back and read again on your various strings (it had been a long while since I first read them) and am certainly impressed with your victories. No doubt you have a right to speak on these issues. Thanks for the empathy Tigger, that goes a long way to re-energizing when you're down just to know that are others are in the mist of the same struggle are making progress. GMS, some pretty profound words there. When you're at the brink of it all that can be quite a motivator. No, I don't want to get the brink to get motivated. My intention since before the Saturday call was not to whine and complain but, maybe that is what is and I just don't see it. I'm really not looking for an out just the stamina to carry through with making these new changes to my thinking and tendencies. If it is whining then forgive me and keep on cattle prodding me in the right direction. I have been praying and waiting for the POWER to really live a dynamic christian life for years so, I guess I will go on praying for it and trusting Him to give me that "enough to do what I'm doing right" now for His glory (in serving damsel).

Oops, forgot I am still on Knight's computer while I wait for mine to get back from the shop. Damsel in Distress

So let me see if I understand this, LargeOne. The moment you decided that yelling was an inappropriate expression toward your wife you then never again yelled or raised your voice to your wife nor became emotionally drained and unable to communicate in a sweet, caring tone of voice to your wife. Or, did it take you some time to get your heart and your habits in line with your new commitment. If you say yes to the first question and no to the second, then, PRAISE GOD! You are a much stronger man than I am. But, if you say it took some time for your commitment to not acting out to become a reality then you have something to share with me for my struggle. How did you do it? What helped you eventually make the changes. Was it just having some one constantly barking out "JUST DO IT!" (I am sure that is a part of it, constantly being encouraged to do what you know is right. But, surely there is more for when you find yourself in a slump. Maybe vent a little on the private men's forum and have guys tell you, "Yeah, I know what you mean but, if you keep at it you'll get there". Or, maybe, "Just keep your focus on the basics, don't let them slip (20x20x20 and reading and dvd)." Possibly some guy sharing his experience and how he eventually made it through, what that looked like. (At this point I really want to say thank you to Brian and Joel because you two guys have been that for me. I look to you too for balanced answers. Also, Nemo helped me a lot on Monday, I know I still didn't totally get it but you moved me in the right direction. Gave me some good stuff to think about. thanks Nemo.) So, you're right Largeone on this point. It is never right to hurt your wife no matter what your reasons are. So, the question is never "When and for what reason is it okay to hurt your wife?" The question is when I am struggling to act right to my wife and this constant effort at creating a new way of thinking and acting is wearing me down, what do I do? Where do I find the strength to continue doing right when God doesn't seem to be providing it in spite of my prayers. Fact is, I believe I'm doing as well as I am because of His grace and power. Point is, I'm not trying to make excuses for wrong behavior. I've been asking for advice on how to do what I know is right (apologize in a way that is healing to my wife, creating a secure atmosphere for her share her heart, to break habits and thought processes that are damaging, and mostly to find the strength to keep battling hard to win back my wife's heart and to heal her.

Damsel, I am really sorry that you saw that post. I can imagine how much that must have hurt to have peaked into the doubts and struggles I am battling with. I know it must have brought a dark cloud of doubt over you and certainly robbed you of your feeling safe moving forward with me. Hopefully, you will be able to understand what you read for what it is, my feelings of frustration and doubts as I struggle to work this program. I am not naive to think that we do not still have some great battles to be fought and won to get us to that outrageously happy marriage. So, in spite of what I feel I am here in the trenches trying to do the work it will take to get us there. Again, I am very sorry that you were subjected the expression of those doubts and frustrations. I do love you very much and willing to die for you (just trying to get my mouth and body to agree with my head and my heart).

Thanks Joel for your post. As you know from my pm to you I do have problems with some of the theology but, as you said about life skills its the fact that the practical part works that you committed to it. That's where I'm at. I am committed to working the program, believing that the man is the initiator and must go first. Believe that he must learn to listen to and heal his wife's heart. And, I am committed to working on that. I know that I am still struggling to get control of my defensiveness and auto protect mode. I realize that I could have just let comments go but then I feel I would be forfeiting getting the effective help I need at such times. I did respond to one helper that I am investing time in the word and prayer. But, the other helper came back with just being a good christian isn't enough. Then as I began to become defensive to a series of like suggestions, it seemed like we got totally off track. Your right about my wife having a great heart. Just because I don't beat her, yell at her, degrade her with name calling or betrayed her doesn't mean I haven't hurt her deeply over the years and, yet, she is still here willing to work this marriage. So, I am working for us to move on to step 2 and hopefully some day soon arrive at step 3. I will mention the Tuesday phone call to Damsel (even though I am sure she will read this post). She may have a problem with her schedule as Tuesdays during the day are very full for her. As for your description of you and Kathy being co-dependent, a better term for what you are describing might actually be inter-dependent. Neither of you dependent in such a way as to act unhealthily in order to get your felt needs met but, rather, each serving one another and covering for each others weak points and leaning on each others strengths. Thanks again for your post. It was encouraging.

What a weekend. Started off pretty nice Saturday morning but, things went south that night. I had been in a slump and looking for a way out. Damsel gave me a list of what she needed on Thursday and I managed to do it all even though we didn't actually get to talk on the call before becoming too tired and hanging up. Things turned upward on Friday though. But, in order to still get the help damsel asked for on Thursday we got on the call Saturday night. That's when things went south again. On the call I was looking for answers as to what to do in a slump to get out of it. By a slump, I mean when you have been giving for a while and another situation arises and even though you may manage to generally control the self centered responses I sometimes find myself with depleted emotional energy to respond at all or to give a response that really heals damsel. At those moments I tend to withdraw not to run but so as not to say something damaging; defending, explaining or argumentative. My question was, so, what do I do in times like these, how do I rise out of it? Jeff, thanks for understanding and identifying with my experience although I didn't really sense you had an answer for me or maybe didn't get a chance to think about it enough to be able to express it. Thanks anyway. I realize that what I am experiencing is part of the normal process of putting self on the alter of sacrifice again and again until he stays there. Brian, you had somewhat of an advantage as I have pm-ed you and you have read my ventings on the men's only forum. Good advice though hard to just do it. Though sometimes that's all there is is just do it. What especially helped though were the specifics of what to 'just do'. I felt that you also identified with my experience as part of the natural process of climbing out of the muck of sinful self-centeredness. Thanks Although I know they meant well, and no doubt my defensiveness was aroused during the discussion, I was a little frustrated with Wen and Heather. First of all, I want the two of them to know that I respect the experience they have acquired over the time they have been working this and I respect their success towards happy marriages. My frustration arose though over the responses that were given without any attempt to really understand where I am at. Immediately, telling me that I need to find my strength in the Lord by spending more time in the word and prayer without even first asking me if and how much time I spend in the word and prayer. If there is something wrong with how I am investing that time we could explore that. Then, for someone who is having their first contact with our situation in that call (hasn't read our story on the forum or talked to us before) to begin making suggestions of drastic life changes which could really put our family in financial jeopardy and risk the ruin of a career (both mine and damsel future ministry) seemed irresponsible to me. (By the way John, I often sense when I listen to your phone calls that you too leap to giving responses and insisting on actions before you have really heard the caller - I know that sometimes you have had previous contact about a situation and are on target). There is no doubt that so much good is being done through this ministry and talk must be tough at times. Like it or not, you all are acting as counselors and your words carry a lot of weight so, it would be wise as good counselors to ask questions in order to speak from sure footing. I do want to apologize to Wen and Heather as I definitely became more and more defensive in my responses as felt that my original question was either not understood or I was not able to ask for in a good way for the specifics I needed to hear. I don't really blame you. In some ways, it seems that mainly the guys who have passed this way to dying to self and the stumbles that naturally occur would be the most likely ones to be able to explain how they worked through it or, some of the ladies to whom their husbands have explained how they worked through it. As it turns out, damsel had communicated with Joel earlier and he gave a pretty good answer based on his and Kathy's experience. Last of all, damsel, I apologize to you for not being humble on the call and working harder to communicate more calmly in order to get the answers I needed. Sorry to have put you through all the emotions you had to deal with through it all. Gotta go now, so I'll finish the rest of the weekend later.