InTheSearchOfTruth

Mary Jane you are so right. I came into a second marriage with those exact thoughts only to find out that the exact same problems came along too. The problem was with me. I would think your son is very quickly learning to act just like Dad. So sad to think that there will be 2 more ladies that will not be loved in the future because someone is choosing not to put in the effort to make change now!

So how do you see the Lord getting you to that point. What is the game plan he has showed you?

Skiingco you said yesterday when asked that you were praying Gods will in this. Can you tell us what that looks like? What do you see your roll is in this for God to accomplish His will?

Skiingco just wondering what it is your praying for; your will or Gods will in all this. For my situation things started changing when I started asking that Gods will be done. You do not need to answer that on here just something for you to think about.

Not sure if it is OK to post on someone's topic or not but taking a chance. This morning on the way to service Jesus spoke to me as he often does with a word picture. He was holding someone (me?) at arms length and they were just wildly swing their arms at Him. Mind you His arm was just long enough that there was no way anyone was going to hit Him. He seemed to have a slight smile on His face. Maybe He was thinking "Are you done yet?" Anyway that hit home (no pun intended) as how often have I done that. The sad thing is often when I quite swinging I would then turn and walk away. What a waste of energy. So much easier to let Him embrace you and listen. The job at hand may not be easy, and I am finding He wants me to do the job, not Him. I get that, name one job where you go to work get paid and the boss does all the work for you. Our pastor is an ex missionary who served in Bolivia in the late 70's to early 80's. He was telling us today how it took years for the seeds of the gospel to start to grow with the group they were working with. How at times they grew very discouraged in the work. Yet over time the seeds that were planted did take root and start to grow. He knew the job at hand as Christ had laid it out. He knew the risk that the seeds might not grow. He knew that his family could all loose their lives in doing what Christ had asked, yet they said "Yes Lord, I will do as you ask." I could bring that full circle to marriage and what Christ has called me to do as a husband. Actually when you render out the lard it comes down to love you wife. Nothing more nothing less. Not sure why I had to get into the arm swinging and waste a lot of precious time and energy, neither which can every be replaced. He gave me a job assignment when I said "I do" so not sure why I ever thought I could then pass it off on Him to do that for me. In our bulletin today from Luke I read "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me." There's that hard pill to swallow again "deny himself", well Lord if you say I must then I will.

For Him for Her thank you for the answer and what you were really looking for and 4evr for your comments. I was thinking much further into the future with my response. I had just written a comment to someone else that is dealing with some of these same issues; this is a portion of the comments I had said to him. “I don’t know about you but I have to believe when judgment day comes that if we continue down the path that you have outlined, and yes I am just as guilty of that as you are so I do very much understand where you are at in all this; then I am afraid we will not hear “Well done good and faithful servant.” Instead we stand a much better chance of hearing “Get away from me for I never knew you.” For actually we never knew Him and what He desired us to do.” Had a very nice conversation with my lovely bride, one of the topics was abusive about people. From a site she has been on is the following statement; “Very few people know what abuse really is, though everyone seems quite ready to give advice to its victims. If you believe that abuse is physical battering, you have some learning to do.” “ To say that abusers cannot change removes responsibility for sin. They can change, but the vast majority choose not to, which is what the experts state.” I apologized for the abuse that I have inflicted in the past and I also had this observation which one would assume could apply to all abuse victims. It must be terribly difficult for victims to live with an abuser even if the abuse stops, as you would always wonder in the back of your mind when it is going to start again. I can see where this thought process could be with you for years to come. That is must be a terribly fear to live with. She also had some comments from another site and I am thinking this one dealt with narcissistic people and I would assume mostly men. She said the founder used to have people who had been thorough the program give a testimonial when they were doing very well. However that had come to a stop as they were finding that in doing so it would throw most of then right back into narcissism as they were right back to talking and thinking about themselves. That is an interesting observation to say the least. For Him for Her what are your thoughts on this? Or some of the other men who now seem to be on the other side I will throw out the same question. Another question for those who have been on this path ahead of me, and it is based on the observations I discussed above. Does posting and talking about ones struggles and issues move you out of that place or does it tend to hold you there. If it holds you back how did you jump off the marry-go-round? I realize that just doing the correct things is the big key. If I report back I am at x number of HSKC now, or we had a wonderful date night, I bought her a ? what ever that is, every bit of that would seem like I am saying “look at me” and how good I am doing. If I do not say anything then is it assumed that I am not doing anything? I gathered from the comments in post #136 that was the case. What are the thoughts on this issue? In closing I will share a comment that I heard yesterday. It made sense to me, maybe it will to you too. “A physical mirror shows the reflection of ones face. The written word the reflection of ones mind. One friends the reflection of ones character.”

Ultimately it gets me the happiness and validation that I am seeking.

For Him for Her that is a very interesting question and one that I have pondered since your asking. Short answer I know I should put myself second, I also know that for most of my life that has not been the case. I think second would be a great place to be. Pride no doubt is the number one reason I am not there yet. I believe just like a veteran who has been in battle will often hit the deck when there is a load noise that sounds like gun fire because they have been conditioned to respond that way for protection that many of the things I do are conditioned reflexes. I can see where the HSKC are to help break bad habits or responses. Last night I worked on just one hurt that was identified. A small start but I hope in the right direction. Mary Jane I am working on HSKC, not at 20 be any means but not at zero either. Hopefully a step going the right way too.

I thought about my answer to For Him For Her and I think a much better response is everyone puts themselves second.

4evr sorry for so many questions and comments. I do understand where you are coming from. Most of what I have gleamed out of life has been from the school of hard knocks. I do ask lots of questions, is that wrong? I don’t think so. Here are some comments about someone else that apparently asked lots of questions. “The Bereans examined what they heard by comparing it to the Old Testament Scriptures. The fact that they honestly listened and conducted further personal research led many Bereans to faith in Jesus as the Messiah.” “In summary, the Bereans have long been seen as a positive example of how a person or community should respond to biblical teaching. We are called to eagerly learn from God’s Word and, no matter who the teacher is, to investigate new teaching in comparison with the Bible. The practice of the ancient Bereans is a model for all who desire to grow spiritually today.” Way back in post #5 I talked about a time of challenge and discovery in my life. It is not my intent to knock anyone’s belief system. I was asked to check something, I found enough errors that sit off red flags and ultimately I came to the conclusion that for me personally what was being presented would not correct. Does it work for others (yes) is it the correct information? Depends on whom you ask I guess. Crystal posted a link to information she must have felt would be of a benefit. I found it of interest and different then what I have heard presented here. I recalled from the books and intensive that the Davissons got their start from attending Mr. Hegstroms Life Skills seminar so I was just wondering why the difference in the concept of teaching. By nature I research, I want to know the theory of why something works. For many years I made my primary living by repairing machinery. Cars, trucks, tractors, motorcycles, etc. I did not just change parts in the hopes I would maybe fix it, I understood first what I was doing and addressed the issue in the correct manner to correct the issue. So what I understand right now. First the only problems that I can fix are mine. Those are the ones I wish to address. I understand based on test results where some of my strengths and many weaknesses are. I understand that where I am today has taken me a life time to get here and that to make changes that are of a positive manner will not happen magically over night and that it will take the help and guidance of others to achieve that goal. I probably will also grate the nerves of those people while on that journey. I also understand that it will only be the hand of the Lord who will make lasting and positive changes that will stand the test of time. Based on past learning experiences at times it will seem to me that I am moving backwards much more than forward. I believe I commented in one of the early post that I had most if not all the information I just was not getting it put together in the correct order to make it work. Or maybe I just am not doing the work needed to actually make the changes happen? I believe I also commented to Crystal that I do not necessarily remember all information that I read however I do try to recall where to find it when I need it again. 4evr you said “Here on this forum- and in the marriage calls, and in the 2 books by the Davissons, and in the recommended readings.. AND in the men's calls, you have access to persons who have "been there and done that." They know what works and what doesn't.” I agree and that is why I have been here posting. I prefer the written word as then I can look back to see what was said if I feel I am not recalling it correctly. A phone conversation a month from now will mean little to me. (I think they said that now what day was that and at what time?) I will not be able to easily go back and research it again and to ask the same questions again probably is a waste of everyone’s time. I have been trying to do HSKC some days are better than others; I know I have a very long ways to go. I do try to remind myself when coming in from work to make sure that I am wearing a smile. Sometimes (maybe often?) I fail but I am trying to make that a positive change in my life. Depending on how dirty I am I clean up first before the kisses. I have watched a few more of the iamsecond videos. We discussed the apology list and I can see that I need to go back and completely readdress that, as it is very apparent to me that there was no healing so far. I also realize that what ever it is that I am searching for may not be found this side of glory. For Him for Her the theme that I have seen or heard so far it God is first.

Woke this morning early with the thoughts of validation running through my head. Still thinking of what Mr. Hegstrom said in his clip yesterday and if I could see examples of people looking for validation in the Bible. Actually several came to mind rather quickly, the Pharisees and the disciples would seem to fit people looking for validation. Maybe in an incorrect manner, still is appears to me they were seeking validation from someone. When my lovely bride awoke this morning I asked if we could explore these ideas some, which we did off and on for the better part of an hour. She described her journey of the past couple of years drawing closer to God. I have been able to witness that first hand. She has grown much stronger and is certainly much surer of herself, all positive attributes in my book. One comment she made and I hope I have it close to correct “It is sad that you (InSearch) can not find your validation from God.” Along the lines of validation she also comment that the apology list was way off base, that it would have been nice if she had been consulted as to what her hurts were and not what I perceived them to be. The words were nice and all but that maybe it was not sincere. So something that needs to be readdressed, as I would definitely like to be able to feel the hurt that she feels. Another sign that she is beginning to understand just how valuable she really is. To tie these thoughts up she closed with the comment “I would like you to be able to respond in a positive way when I say something, not to say I don’t remember to then recall it a couple of days later.” If I am understanding and hearing her correctly she is saying, “Validate my thoughts as I have them”. Would that be a correct understanding? I should add thank you Free Dog for posting the information that you used in you walk through this. I had seen that information in the past. It is helpful yes, does not totally float my boat in the area of validation. Something I need to work out with God that is for sure. Joel I looked back through past post and the closing comments in post #22 was “Where are all the guys at on this site? I certainly appreciate the input from you Crystal and the comments from 4evr, a guy or two swing a 2x12 might be quite helpful too.” Crystal replied in the opening lines of post #24 “Historically, the guy helpers are a lot gentler with guys than the women here, because the guys have all walked in your shoes and they feel your pain. I am a whole lot more impatient with you and I'm more likely to swing a 2x12 your way.” Joel, I am very sorry if you feel I have been taking up Crystal’s time. She has been quite helpful along with 4evr and I have learned quite a bit from their insight. If your desire is that I quite posting let me know and I will stop post haste, just let me know your desires. I would thing the input from one guy on a consistent basis would probably be very helpful, I also know most guys do not like to sit at a key board for any length of time. So we do the best we can I suppose. For Him For Her I have a question for you. The web site http://iamsecond.com, are you looking for comments about what I think or feel about the various clips or what is it I am suppose to gleam from this site. I have in the past looked at it several times based on your recommendations to others here. I have no problem watching them again (and again if needed) just not quite sure the results I am to expect from this. Thank you for caring enough to share the site.

Some questions about the Paul Hegstrom link. If I understood him correctly both genders are affected by arrested development and that it occurs at an early age (before 13). I heard him mention that a woman wants an emotional relationship. If she were to marry someone who could actually deliver this that she would resist the relationship, as she does not know how to handle it. I wonder at least from what you see from all the information floating around, could she even find this sort of gentleman? Men wanted control of sex and money. Sounds like a wonderful combination emotions, money, and sex. I really liked his definition of arrested development in what I assume was a marriage relationship. “Two come together but neither get what they need,” I suppose that could apply to all relationships not just a marriage relationship. What jump out at me towards the end was he said the cure was simple: I like simple! A question I have about the cure; does it apply to both genders? Anyway he was talking about validation. He talked about a Mike who had been through the court systems many times. The last time when he appeared before the judge he was not recognized by said judge and when asked what had happened Mike replied I would climb Mount Everest for Mr. Hegstrom. He has told me things I always wanted to hear from my Dad. Mr. Hegstrom said “validation” started a process of completion of the mind that would allow a person to move into the next stages of development. So in this crazy mixed up thing we tend to call life, who or what is suppose to be doing the validating? It really does make sense in my mind and begins to show just how important a quality father figure is for both genders as they are growing up. I hope we can agree that we cannot change the past but only the present and maybe by changing the present we can have a different impact on the future. To satisfy myself I looked up some definitions of validation. a. corroboration b. legalization c. justification d. rationale e. substantiation f. support g. confirmation So the question that is niggling and rattling around in my head at the moment is: Is it really as simple as Mr. Hegstrom implies? I realize there is work required to get there. He said that often he was a surrogate father for up to 15 people at a time. Is it just that we need a strong father figure in our lives? Anyway thank you for the link; it does raise some interesting questions to work out.

Crystal sorry I have not posted what I have studied before now. Seems it raised a flag or two. Anyway a small list: Boundaries Cloud/Townsend Don’t let Jerks get the best of you, Love is a choice Meier Captivating, Stop hurting the Woman you Love, Wild at Heart and Good husband great marriage Eldredge Discovering the Mind of a Woman Nair 5 Love Languages Chapman FPU Ramsey Business by the Book Burkett Books one and two Davissons Weekend marriage intensive DVD series Davissons Many of the clips on the web site “I am second.” There probably are more, they are escaping me at the moment. The above is in not particular order just as they came to me. I have listened to some of the record phone conversations as I find time to do it. No I have not taken time yet to watch the links that you posted. Have been trying to put into practice in a small way what I need to be doing. Should be able to get to the links now that things have slowed back down some. The Christmas season was good. Some of the family was able to come for a weekend visit.

Crystal said. Part of the problem here too is your own fear of rejection. I speak from experience with FD. Our temperament studies both reveal fear of rejection as a block to relationship. It may help you to get over your fear of rejection to understand that the longer you put off HKSC out of fear of rejection that in doing so you're rejecting her. It comes down to whose feelings are more important. In a healthy relationship her feelings are more important to you and your feelings are more important to her. For the lifetime of your marriage, you have placed higher value on your own feelings. There is a time that for healing of the marriage the pendulum needs to swing in her direction so that you and she take care of her feelings over your own. I may have to re-word that if it's a new concept for you. Crystal your insight is very correct. We had a very good talk just before Christmas and at the moment things are going the right direction. I just need to continue making sure it goes that way. I asked my bride what her thoughts were about how people changed and if she had ever read anything in scripture about men changing from outside to in. She could not think of anything either. I maybe can see this if we are talking about changing habits. To me it seems like those are unlearned by doing something different. But I would not call that a heart change. Maybe am wrong with those thoughts. Not sure it makes any difference if I can keep the ship heading in the right direction. Over the last while I have come to realize the stress is coming from just being comfortable and in a rut and not wanting to change. Now that I think I have identified the reason why I can handle the stress to make the changes needed.

Very good Christmas. Attended two candle light church services. Christmas day we had some friends over for Christmas dinner. After wards we watched the movie "The Star of Bethlehem". It is an excellent movie and unlocks a lot of the story of the Star of Bethlehem. If you have not seen it take the time to watch it. Moved a new bed into the spare bedroom. Oldest son and family will be here for the weekend. My bride was seemed very happy with the new outfit that I got her and the size was right. A small step in the right direction.

TP That makes a lot of sense and I will expand on what Jesus showed my this morning. Thank you for posting and that is a problem I seem to be running into with Bible translations. What they say often is not quite what was originally said. Again thanks.

Another sleepless night so spent a couple of hours in the hot tub. That seems to be the one safe haven any more. Has been for a few years now. I still have the feeling that I relate the time spent there as time spent in the womb. Not sure why that is. I know that every time I have that thought I pray for the countless children who loose their lives with abortion. To be torn from a place of safety into death is beyond my comprehension. During my time in the tub tonight the vision came back that I have had off and on now for a year. This time it was more detailed and clearer so maybe in time the true meaning of it will become present. I have had the vision of my heart bound and in pain; it has always been a monotone picture. Tonight there was color, the best I can describe it is like a charcoal or a lava rock that has been heated and is cooling down. The surface is always dark in color but it is the center that is on fire and has a glow. The pain is a heart wrapped in barbed wire. I had a sense that maybe someone was holding onto either the wire or maybe the complete heart. Just a sense but nothing pictured. I started looking for Jesus in all this, He again appear with a little child sitting on His knee. I would guess the child to be 4-5 years old and seemed happy and full of laughter. This is almost always how I find Jesus in fact I am not sure if I have ever seen Him with me in any sort of adult situation. Will have to ponder that thought some more. The one thing I found of interest was looking up I could find one lone star tonight. The sky is cloud covered. As I watched, the star would come and go as the clouds moved over it. At times it seemed if I was really trying to find it. that it was gone and when I looked away and then back it was to be found. I guess the comfort came in knowing it was there even when I could not see it. During the time spent meditating on the above vision I drifted back to a time of counseling from about 4 years ago. I mostly rely on what my wife has told me as I have little direct memory of it. I know it happened but details I do not recall. I may not have this totally correct and I am going to only hit the high lights so I hope this makes some sense. Part way through one of the sessions when the counselors were asking me questions I guess I curled up into a fetal ball position. As the questions continued she says I was answering in a completely different voice. This I gather went on for several minutes (maybe 15?). Eventually I recall the male counselor calling my name and bring me back. This was a Christian couple that did counseling. I think they believed that I was not saved as they did lead me in a prayer of salvation. Pretty sure they had never experienced this before and was really not sure what to do with it. I have not experience anything like it sense. I know there has been a few times I have yelled out in my sleep. My frightened wife has asked me what was scaring me and my reply has been I was fighting with the devil. So I do for a fact know that Ephesians 6:10-12 is very true, especially verse 12. So my mind is starting to wind down a little and maybe I can find a couple of hours of sleep before the day begins. I have taken my heart to the cross many times over the past year. As I try to find some sleep tonight I again will lay it at the cross. Maybe I am looking for the wrong answers here. I wonder what is the cause of the pain? That maybe an answer I do not need to know. At this point it has not been discovered. What a creation the mind is. Far surpassing the greatest computer system we have yet to dream up. What a great Creator we have.

So that you don't forget, your questions are: 1. Do men and women learn "love and relationship" in different ways? men from outside in and women from inside out? What is the Scriptural evidence for this? 2. David gave this answer, but continue to think on this: Are these results showing how God has wired a person or are they showing what life experiences has turned an individual into? Or is it a combination of both? 3. How do I meet the needs of my wife without totally blowing a head gasket with all the stress that I feel anymore? 4. What am I, normal or dysfunctional? (hint sin = dysfunction. sorry it's hard for me not to put in my own two cents!) 5. Jesus said "His yoke was easy and My burden is light". If that is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then why is it I am feeling so much stress in this marriage relationship?Next is a random uneducated speculation about Arno from me. When you think about the questions asked for a test like Arno, remember basically they ask, what do you prefer, this that or the other thing. The same questions are re-worded and repeated. The results show you what you want. The results reveal your heart's desire. We are brought up in a society that teaches us if I want something it must be bad. Temperament tests give us an opportunity to see our desires more objectively. Philippians 2:13 For God is carefully working in you both to desire and to do that thing which you desire. (Aramaic Bible in Plain English). The desire/will/temperament (that God put there) isn't the problem. The problem is what we do with it. Crystal I would like to thank you for your last response. My thoughts are I am getting way to hung up on this Arno test or the others that I have taken. They all show about the same thing. Your answer makes as much sense to me as any that I have heard. “The results reveal your heart's desire.” I am very hesitant to say much about my wife’s results without her permission. I will just leave it that we are quite opposite and I doubt that comes as much of a surprise to anyone here. 1. Do men and women learn "love and relationship" in different ways? men from outside in and women from inside out? What is the Scriptural evidence for this? So far I have not found a Scriptural reference for this. I have done a goggle search and all that I found there was a discussion about changing habits. I looked back through my post and did not even find the question that I asked as I wanted to see in what context I was thinking. I think what I had in mind was heart changes and for some reason I have it stuck in my head that at the intensive it was being presented that men change from out to in and opposite for the ladies. I just spent the past hour looking back through the workbook and did not even find the topic listed so maybe I am thinking of something that does not even apply. 2. David gave this answer, but continue to think on this: I still like your answer Crystal, it really does make the most sense to me at this point. Most of these sorts of test that I have taken will show that I am very purpose driven, goal orientated, and shallow of most emotional feelings and really do like to be left alone. So is that how I was originally wired? Probably not. Has this come about because of life experiences? I am leaning towards yes on this. Am I comfortable here where I am now? I think so and you probably hit the bulls’ eye with your answer “The results show you what you want. The results reveal your heart's desire.” I chose to disclose what was on my test with the hopes that it might give those helping some insight with what was being dealt with. 3. How do I meet the needs of my wife without totally blowing a head gasket with all the stress that I feel anymore? The best I come up with here is number 1 Ask God to revel her heart. I do know she is quite hurt and very wore out. Much is physical health issues and maybe even more is emotional issues. They are all coming together and I realize she is one very tired, wore out lady. One who is not very sure what her role in life is suppose to be anymore. If I were putting words in her mouth it would go something like this; “Why don’t you go experiment on someone else, I am tired and do not have the energy to fight anymore. You have all the answers go talk to God and YOU figure out how to put the pieces in the right order.” Now maybe I am reading her wrong but I suspect it probably would go something like that. I do know that it will take a lot of patience and work on my part to get this right. The reason I used experiment for the term is by nature I fix things. For 90 per cent of my working life that was what I was paid by someone to do. So for me this is very much a new experience trying to fix without getting my hands into it and just doing it my way. So it is very stressful to me, one that the Lord will have to deal with. 4. Well said! 5. My thoughts are that the pieces of the puzzle are not fitting really in the order that Jesus would want. Any time something is not working within design limits things are being stress and I would assume that is where things are right now. Got to town this week without my wife. I stepped way out on a limb and bought her what I hope will be a nice outfit that she will like for Christmas. I have never done that before. For one thing I really do not like to shop for others and I am a very poor judge of sizes. I do know that stores are very use to exchanges this time of year so did not feel the size issue was really an issue (more an excuse if I wanted to make it that). I liked the outfit so hope she will too. I also did get her some gift certificates so she has a chance to get what she likes too. Scary stuff for me I suppose and I will find out if it was worth the chance. (I think it will be). To expand a little more on my answer to TP. Maybe I look at God differently then most and maybe it is not correct. I see Him in all that I deal with and am dependent on Him to provide everything. It was always my hearts desire to work the land. Over the last few years that dream has slowly come to be. Over my life leading up to this opportunity He has taught me patience, stewardship, and trust to name just three things. (These were things I would say I didn’t do well before putting my trust in Him.) Trust that He will send the rains and sunshine as needed. Patience that in His time the crops will grow and even if He sends hail and destroys them they are still a bountiful crop. When you realize that they really are His crops then it does become much easier to deal with what we would perceive as failure when hail storms or lack of rain occurs and that does happen from time to time. Stewardship in that you learn to treat the land well and live very conservatively, be open to change and new ideas. Do I have control of much of anything with these crops? Not really when you think about it. I can put the seed in the ground at the right time, I can apply fertilizer at the right time and in the amounts that soil test say you need. I can do all that to the best of my abilities and yet if He chooses not to send the rains at the right time and in the right amount, if He chooses not to send the sun. If He chooses to send or not the hundreds of other things needed to produce a crop then we harvest little to nothing in return. We do all this knowing that we get one pay check a year and we really have no control over how much that will be either. Someone once told me that farming is the craziest business you can be in. You buy everything at retail and sell everything you produce at wholesale. You can count on very long hard days of work in all kinds of weather. But do not forget that the one thing you can always count on is God. He is always right by your side. It is His garden that you are the caretaker of. Do I see Jesus as a friend? Yes. Do I have relationship with Him? In my mind I do but maybe some here would say no. I will admit my relationship is as much or more through work then in verbal words or reading. Am I saved? Yes according to what the Bible tells me I am.

TP Well in my opinion the Lord has and continues to richly bless this family. Over the years he has provide both of us with many skills. We both have what could be considered life-threatening issues and yet He provides us with stable health. His love is all around us. I see that every day on the job. Many would say that what I see is just ordinary daily events but I do not think so. In regards to your question about 2 Cor 5:17 I have seen many changes in myself over the years but I would ask you by what standard should this be judged? He has brought much healing to me and He continues to heal. Thank you for asking.

Excellent day yesterday if a little long. The concert was wonderful even if I was only able to understand about 4 percent of the words. The bass soloist was sick so the choir director was filling in for him. This left the symphony director to direct everyone and he was also playing the harpsichord, oh dear he was a busy boy. I put the effort in to have a hair cut and this time even dressed in a suit which for some reason had taken a mindset of it own and had grown just a little smaller then I was accustom too, maybe from a lack of usage? So that lead to a shopping excursion after the concert. Hopefully we found non-shrinking clothing this time around either that or I need to use them more often! Crystal to answer your question "Do buses and trucks still "blow head gaskets"? Yes they do. I will add for those who may not know. School bus drivers have one of the hardest jobs to do. Who else is expected to keep maybe up to 72 little people who have not a clue it seems on how to behave themselves under control. All this while moving something that can weight 15 ton down the road at speed with his/her back turned to them. And then the thanks often the driver will get and unfortunately it usually does come from the Moms is "My little angle could not possible do what you are saying they did" Even when you show them what happened on video tape. It certainly is a different world now days. Much different then the days when I road a bus. In those days bus drivers were believed and they did not need a video tape to prove what they were saying. Yep I actually did that for 12 or so years. I was a transportation director. I got it from both ends; parents about how incompetent the drivers were and from the drivers on how misbehaved the students were. I also had my fair share of behind the wheel too, usually the routes that no one really wanted. Yet today the former passengers who will look me up are usually the ones who I did have to discipline. Most of the time they will say "Thank you for caring enough to try and make me do the right thing" Those are the ones who made that job worth all grey hair I now have, and the stress I put up with at the time. I will also say, Thank you to the helpers here who are caring enough to try and help a block head like me. Did your wife take the test too? Yes. What are her results? Crystal have you ever known God to pair up two equals? He does have a good sense of humor you know. She is at the opposite end of the spectrum. We are not two peas in a pod. "she's being an excellent helpmeet!" Yes she is. I really wish she would speak up more as it would move this process along much faster and into a better place I think. Through my actions or lack there of I have pretty well been able to shut her down. David this is where my thoughts have taken me on results of test like APS. Example that I will use here is; I was wired to be more reserved and quite. Through a few life experiences and you gave this as an example "As little boys, our voices are squelched" I have learned to take that to an extreme. Am I looking at this correctly? Crystal at the moment it seems that I am between the rock and hard place in this area. "Obligatory HSKC are pure H~~~ on the receiving end. That's why you need to get past this phase ASAP!!!!! For your beautiful long-suffering bride!!!!" How does one move this to a new level? Mindset change I know! I am in total agreement the wedge needs to be knocked out from under this bolder so it could head down the hill into the next district. It;s not that my wife is an org, (shes not) it's just something (HSKC) that my boat does not need to float and I have not learned how to give them in a way that floats her boat. And your correct "I have blown many head gaskets over getting HSKC because he had to instead of wanted to" she is in the same position. I know I have always used them as a tool to get what I wanted in life. So get to start out a new week putting some cloths away. They are still laying over a chair back from last night. I think we both were to tired to deal with them when we got home.

David thank your for responding, I would like to explore this a little more with you. You said "The APS test results show us how God designed us to be. This is how HE wants us to communicate and be in relationship with HIM and the people who are in our life ". Looking at some of what it says about me I see things like "a very private and serious person and you prefer being at home alone or with your family" " tend to be stressed when people try to push you into socializing" "self-motivated and more comfortable performing tasks than socializing" "have a mind that will not shut off" "compulsive perfectionist, setting very high standards for yourself and everyone around your". This was inclusion what ever that is. Control traits "independent and self-motivated" "take on responsibilities very well when working in known areas, have good leadership capabilities" "want people to be responsible, reliable, and dependable." "if others pressure you, you will rebel and ventilate your anger" "legalistic, rigid, and uncompromising" "give advice when people ask, but will not pressure them into following that advice" Affection I touched on a little in an earlier post but to recap. "require a minimal amount of love and affection" "be very practical and you usually do not like romantic, candle-lit dinners" "be compulsively self-sacrificing for your deep relationships and would probably give the ultimate sacrifice your life" So the recommendations for inclusion were: have quite time every day to think, dream, and regenerate. You should not be force to socialize. Seek employment where you have a minimal amount of interaction with people. Have economic stability because of your fear of never having enough money. Focus on positive things. Deal with anger constructively. Control: Be in control of your circumstances as you are independent, and like to make your own decisions, in you own time. Learn to submit to those placed in authority over you while still maintaining control of your own personal life. Be in an environment where people will meet your need for truth, order, dependability, and reliability. Affection:Learn to express your deep, tender feelings in ways which are comfortable to you, and in ways which your deep relationships can understand and accept. You love them so much you would compulsively sacrifice your life for them, however, you rarely say, "I love you". You need to learn to say it more often, because your deep relationships may need to hear it expressed more than once every five years! Learn to accept love and affection from your deep relationships, as you tend to reject them when they show too much love and affection;therefore, you need to learn to maintain a balance between your needs and their needs. Learn to forgive. There is not a thing in this test that I would disagree with. Other test that I have taken show much the same. If what you say is correct, that this test represents the individual that God designed, then what I seek is how do I meet the needs of my wife without totally blowing a head gasket with all the stress that I feel anymore? For it seems that I come no where close to meeting her needs. I certainly hear about the perfectionism all the time. When I try to let things slid then I find I do not want to do anything. Then I find I start feeling depressed. Neither feeling brings enjoyment. I really would have no problem I guess in giving the 20 H, S, K, and C but probably would approach it like mowing the lawn, doing the dishes, or what ever. A task that needs done so that I can get back to my world of quite. I am sure that comes across to her as a total lack of feelings and emotions, as a result anymore it has become a no thanks would rather not situation. The recommendations for the other areas I have a pretty good handle of. I work by myself most of the time having little to no interaction with people. If I do interact it is usually on my time schedule, and most circumstances are under control. Do try to live on a budget and since I am a compulsive perfectionist every receipt is accounted for. Unfortunately that does have it's down side as it can be several days or maybe a week or two before I see receipts from my wife. I have learned to zip it and try to funnel the frustration off some place else in this area. My confusion is this. If Jesus designed each of us as unique individuals which I believe He did, and we are suppose to put our wife's needs first which I see is His desire for us to do. If as you say David: "This is how HE wants us to communicate and be in relationship with HIM and the people who are in our life" and the test say I am a very private, independent, and self-motivated person who tends to be very practical, and will not tolerate control over my life, needing a minimal amount of love and affection. What am I, normal or dysfunctional? My wife says I am very passive or maybe even passive aggressive. She also thinks all the above is mostly a product of past environment. This test points out to me what I have seen in myself for as long as I can remember, so I think it shows normal what ever normal is. Jesus said "His yoke was easy and My burden is light". If that is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then why is it I am feeling so much stress in this marriage relationship? Jesus did design marriage so it should work, correct? Me thinks I am missing something here. Sorry for the confusion but I am confused. On a lighter side, the dog and cat have both either wanted to go outside or food more than once tonight while I have been thinking about this (Slow thinker I guess). The last time I let the dog back in I walked over to my wife leaned down, waited until she acknowledged me and then I asked "What is it you want"? as we have not said anything to each other all evening. Her reply with a smile "You never know". Unfortunately she is right, I seldom really do know what it is she wants. Very sad.

Sorry it has been a few days since I have found the time to write something. Right now I am questioning the results of test like the Arno test. As I mentioned above I have taken more then one test of that nature and they pretty much all show the same thing. The question that I struggle with is this. Are these results showing how God has wired a person or are they showing what life experiences has turned an individual into? Or is it a combination of both? Crystal I have spent a few hours reading "The thread The Donkey and the DeLorean". What seemed rather sad to me was the issue that kept coming up seemed to still be an issue at the very last post. That last post was a year ago and I wonder if something was said today if any changes for the better have occurred?. That seems to validate what my wife thinks. That unless God is a part of the picture to make the change that change really does not happen. True you may act better, be more kind etc. but true change really does not occur. She feels that true change come from the inside for both men and women. That it has to be a heart change or it is just a lie. I know this ministry says men change from the outside in. Can you quickly point me to where the Bible would back this up this ministries position on this statement of ladies inside out, men outside in? If not I will start looking but will probably be after the first of the year. I am not implying that God is not a part of either the Donkey and the DeLorean's lives as I do not know them. I am just reading a story as presented on this forum. Right now I am up to my eye balls in year end reports to keep big brother happy. Also dealing with the Affordable Health Care Act which is anything but affordable anymore , sure is time consuming though. That is all on top of the normal job requirements. The highlight that I am looking forward to is Sunday and what I hope will be a good concert and date.

To give a little more information about how life has gotten me to where I am not that it really matters all that much. For what ever reason for most of my life there have been poor or bad issues with sex. Incest around age 11. At the age of 16 or 17 I was sexually molested by a male stranger. If memory serves me I was 27 before I initiated sex and that was with a married woman. There were several partners over the next few years with much confusion as to what my role in all this was really suppose to be. Nothing really seemed safe. Always wondered if there should be a male partner but never has been. By the time I married (age 42) sex was something that was an act of release, no love just a physical release and usually not all that great or big of a deal. When I married the second time we chose not to engage in sex until after being married. We both knew this was Gods plan and I supposed I had hope things would be right this time. Unfortunately that has not been the case. There have been a couple of things that have trigger flash backs to age 16-17. Fortunately I have never thrown up from that, but close. Over the years I have found that I cared less and less about people, as I lost interest in what people have to offer I turned more to work and hobbies, of which there have been many. I asked Jesus into my life when I was 36 or 7. Life was getting way to screwed up for me and it really was not working anymore. After asking him in things did improve greatly. At least I could fit into a lot more of what society expect of a person. Certainly did not become an out going people person, but people found me much easier to be around. As a single person I could function pretty well. Married well NOT SO WELL. Took an online test shortly after was married the second time. It is something similar to the Arno Profile test from the intensive. The results of that test were, I am precise, organized, a perfectionist, competent, and self sufficient. I live in what they called "perfect country" and my adopted country is "control country" I was characterized as "A hard natured person who has a somewhat gentle determination that drives him to accomplish what he sets out to do. He is results oriented and tries his best to get to the point and is always interested in the bottom line. If there is something that needs attention, is quick to act upon and take care of the situation. He usually takes the leading position when he is involved in a project. His emotions come second to his goals. He can be a caring, compassionate individual if he feels comfortable being that way but he will not allow himself to be taken advantage of. His hard nature will always be there to protect him from people who might have insincere motives." The arno test showed very similar results. It coded out as Mc-M-Mc. Looking over it as I type this some things that jumped out tonight. "Express very little control over the lives and behaviors of others, and you will not tolerate control over your life and behaviors. You are highly independent and strong-willed." Rarely say "I love you." You tend to feel more comfortable expressing your love by doing special tasks for your deep relationships. Have deep, tender feelings, but you rarely reveal them because you do not want to make yourself vulnerable. Feel your space is being invaded if your deep relationships want to touch, hug, and kiss all the time. You tend to prefer for them to keep their hands to themselves as too much touching and hugging make you feel uncomfortable. The arno test summarized it like this. When your needs are not being met, it will cause stress and anxiety. Other possible symptoms include: depression, dissatisfaction, loneliness, fear, frustration, anger, marriage and family problems, poor work performance, exhaustion and inter/intra personal conflicts. The summary is pretty much spot on. I am not sure where I found my strength before marriage but I felt full of energy and after meeting Jesus looked forward to life. Much if not most of what these two test say about my are spot on. I have read many times here that God is to be my source of strength and I the source for my bride. All I can say is most of the time now I have no real interest or energy in dong the things that I have enjoyed in the past or interest in really working with or healing my bride, I grow more frustrated as the weeks move on, over all life satisfaction is dropping, and am way more lonely being with someone then when I was alone. And I seldom dated when single. I did spend most of my time alone but would fill it doing things I really enjoyed doing. After spending this morning working on year end tax reports and dealing with the government on health insurance changes I have found myself wound up. So this has been a time of unwinding a little. Spent some of this evening filling out another online report for state business taxes, so by now I have about had it up to here with Government nonsense. Guess this could be a good reason to get frustrated! Yes these can be things to get frustrated about but really I look at them as just little bumps in the road. Can not put the finger on the real source of the frustration, just know that it is there. Now on to more fun things. Yes Crystal this weekend is another date. Looking forward to it. Messiah. Wife says if they do the complete performance that it will be long. Also have a potluck at church and decorating for Christmas so Sunday will be a busy day. Not sure if we will go out for supper or not but will ask. I took her out this last week for supper when we were in town. Mexican this time. We do not always eat out when in town but this time decided it would be a fun thing to do. So like at said in the beginning this story of life really makes little difference in things but for some reason it needed to be shared. It is a story that has not been told very often.

Well my understanding is, if say I give her a hug, that really the hug is a benefit to me. It is no benefit to her beyond something she had to endure. Her description this morning was "I am the king and I am on the pedestal, she is a serif and beneath me. Whatever falls off my plate may trickle down to her." Or something very close to that. She is not receiving much if any positive emotional benefit from the relationship.

Yes I think so. I probably did not word my reply very well.