Under the Shadow of the Almighty

[4evrHZdtr3]

Ok, I just registered tonight. I have been away from my husband for over two years but have not yet filed. I have started to try and live with him and it just isn't working! After two affairs with the same woman in under ten years- and the last one lasted more than two years before I discovered it! He has not changed at all. He treats me very, very well- uses charming words, cooks great meals when he is home, does the dishes, etc...which he has always done for all the years of our marriage! But he lies, cannot share his thoughts or feelings, blame shifts, makes agreements he never keeps, gives me the silent treatment, presumes my motivations,procrastinates, doesn't pay his bills, AND at the same time, he is making an effort to talk more(?), but it is like pulling teeth! He is apologizing more, but I have to point it out each and every time... it never occurs to him that he has done anything wrong! He wonders why i don't want any type of affection from him! he never even thinks that there is anything he could be doing wrong. Work and sleep take up most of his time as a truck driver.

I have asked him to move out of our family home for the last two years so that i could feel emotionally safe (from being constantly blamed for 'attacking' him or being the reason he does what he does) and have shown him through many sacrificial actions that i want to save our marriage and I have promised him that i will not 'take' the home or 'divorce' him. The home is licensed and set up for me to do childcare. he refuses to leave saying we can't afford it. when i began to demand it, he threatened by saying if I forced it, the marriage would be over... 3 therapists later, the only advice I have heard is that if i will quit being so angry he might feel safe around me!! He won't read any book I give him...

Has anyone else dealt with this?? Oh, I'm sure there are many...

[MaryJane]

Hi 4evr!

 

I'm glad you're here!

 

Have you read Joel and Kathy's two books yet? You really need to. They give the foundation message of this ministry. The books are called, The Man Of Her Dreams/ The Woman Of His and Livin' It And Lovin' It. You can get them by following the links on the God Save My Marriage web site.

 

Another great offering of the ministry is the couples' conference calls. Every night except Friday nights at 9 PM Eastern. The number is 1-512-716-6531 Access code: 981128# Even if you get on to just listen at first, you would find it interesting and maybe helpful.

 

Your husband needs a wakeup call. That's about all I can tell you for right now.

 

I would like to know more of your history though. For example,

 

1. How long have you been married?

2. Is it your first marriage?

3. Do you have children together?

4. Does your husband claim to be a Christian?

 

There is hope! Please write again.

 

[Looney_Tunes]

Welcome! I'm glad you're here too.

 

Yes, we've dealt with husbands like yours many times. There is hope.

 

Your husband needs to read the books. We generally recommend the nice approach first - ask him politely and (this is important!) give him a deadline. Two weeks is generally enough time to get through the first book, but obviously you will adjust that if his other responsibilities would make that difficult. Make it reasonable - we want him to succeed - but don't make it open ended or Jesus will be back before he gets around to it.

 

Now comes the hard part - what to do if he doesn't read them.

 

People do not change until it becomes too uncomfortable to remain the same. Your husband is abusive and totally clueless about what it means to be a Christlike man. Your marriage problems are 95% his fault. The other 5% is your responsibility, because you have allowed his behavior to continue.

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm beating up on you. I don't mean to make you feel bad or guilty. It is what it is, and you didn't know what to do. That's what we're going to help you with.

 

If he refuses to read the books, there needs to be a consequence. You need to think of something that would matter to him and that you are actually willing and able to do. For instance, since he cooks it doesn't look like he'd care if you didn't make dinner, so that's not a good consequence. However, if he's a TV watcher and you cancel the cable, that might get his attention. See if you can come up with something that would matter enough to him that he'd read the books.

 

If he flat out refuses no matter what you do, you need to file for divorce. The purpose of this is not to punish him, it's to hopefully make him wake up. Many men won't change until they realize their wife really is serious. If he thinks you'll never divorce him, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to treat you differently. He thinks you'll simply put up with his behavior like you always have. You'd be surprised at how many men are suddenly willing to participate in this ministry once they get the divorce papers!

 

Stay here and keep posting - we can help you find the strength to do this.

[4evrHZdtr3]

I am glad to have your answers. I agree that I have enabled in so many ways for a long time... I have been trying everything except divorce. My husband never ever flat out refuses to do anything - like read a book or go for counseling. I don't even think the word NO is in his vocabulary. he smiles and agrees and then forgets what was said, or claims we can't afford it, or? and then does what he wants!

We have a beautiful fourteen year old daughter. I took her and left him in August of 2009...when he refused to move out of the house. BUT I kept being financially and emotionally available to him-For the two and a half years that we were gone, I drove seven hundred miles each way every other month- so that he could see our daughter. He came to see us two times in that same time period. I also did that for me and her because we had a very solid church/friends life there. When I left, I also walked through a very difficult time, which I will now explain: My first husband had just been diagnosed with leukemia- He and I had five adult children together. I had been his conservator/caretaker as he had suffered a massive hemorrhagic stroke fifteen years before and was paralyzed and brain injured. The way I met my current husband was when I was a divorced single mother, with three kids at home still. My first husband had just had the stroke (we were already divorced) and I had stepped in to become his caretaker because he was the father of my children and everyone wanted to let him vegetate in a nursing home until he died. I was in the middle of having medical equipment delivered to my apartment after having been trained in home care when my current husband- who had moved in next door to help his sister (also a single mother) began to help. Very long story short- I married my current husband after nine months of our talking and sharing the workload of caring for my ex. He stated he was a Christian and he attended church with me. My teen children loved him and thought he was the best. We cared for my ex until just after our daughter was born- then we found an acceptable nursing home and moved north-seven hundred miles to create our own life. A year later, I found that my ex was being abused and neglected, so i brought him to where we were and started getting paid- via court order to take care of him. Through the years, i also opened a childcare in my home- and with my current husband's help we conducted a very successful childcare and took very good care of my ex. We bartered with parents of the children who were in the care taking profession to trade care so that we could have vacations- and we also took advantage of the VA respite care offered- so that we could have our own life. I need to say in here that my current husband helped me to build a successful childcare when he was not trucking for four years, he helped me hands on in my ex's care, even changing adult dirty diapers, he was an awesome Dad to our daughter. Later, my husband went back to trucking- his first time with the OW was when he had been trucking before (2000). She was one of his trainees and she had similar interests to him. When i found out about it, we went through two years of hard times emotionally. When i couldn't find any Christian counseling except- "forgive him" he said he was sorry" because i wanted a home life for our daughter and didn't want to give up- I let my walls down and let him back into my heart. He sobbed and cried and told me he would never do it again and he would never see her again. (his second time with her started within two months of his going back to trucking -Jan 2006). He called her up and it progressed from there over nearly three years before I found out!) Within a year after the discovery of this (first) emotional affair- he insisted there was no sex- he lost his trucking job and was home for four years before he was able to get another trucking job.

Anyway, back to the leukemia. My ex died six weeks after his diagnosis- I took him with me when i moved out to be near our five adult children- I put him in hospice near where they were and rented an apartment. This whole time, I was thinking that my husband would want me back and that he would make the necessary changes. But that never happened. I thought that by showing him i was invested in the marriage, that i wasn't trying to take away our daughter, that i wanted to communicate, that he would respond. I see now -especially after reading the excerpts of the first book- that is naive and wrong thinking. When i left, he became so angry at me that he just started drinking and blaming me even more than he had in the three months before we left.

When my ex died, i received the (small)life insurance he had and bought a small foreclosure house with it. The house was gutted on the inside and one of my adult sons and i put it back together with our own two hands! It's a beautiful little home but located in a very remote area, with no jobs nearby,no stores and poor schools. I home-schooled my daughter while we were there and lived off of school money, unemployment and odd jobs. (I went back to school and am now in my third year at fifty eight years old! so proud of myself, too, but all I have heard from my husband is how much money it will cost!) When i bought the small house, i thought i was just going to flip it and go back home to my husband. I thought for sure he would have made the necessary changes. It was when i started to see the patterns of avoidance, lying, irresponsibility, blaming etc that I decided to stay in the house instead of selling it. The only reason i went back home to attempt living with him is because our daughter needed to be in her home, near her Dad and more importantly, she needed to be near her church, traditional school and friends. So I enrolled her in eighth grade there, but i try not to sleep in the same bedroom as my husband, I have not been allowing physical contact- because i get charmed and let my guard down! But we are going nowhere with this pattern. my husband is happy to keep himself busy with driving and sleeping and he doesn't do any of the important stuff I ask for, like continue with counseling, read a book- I have given him many- He just tells himself and me that he has to work- We have gone through bankruptcy, lost our timeshare ownership, almost lost the house- and our marriage is in a shambles, but none of these have caused any real awakening. He has been more co-operative since in the last three months- but again, its only inch by inch- when its convenient for him- I don't sense that it is wholehearted- he still feels like I bear equal responsibility- he's still making excuses-

Example, I am on a trip right now and i left our daughter at home with him. I went to take care of his sister- who had major surgery and didn't want to go to a nursing home- We had several conversations before i left about our daughter's supervision and care. i told him- whatever you decide on for her care, just don't leave her alone when you do a three day run. he agreed to that, but that's exactly what he did! When i called him on that he had lied to himself and told me that he thought I had made arrangements and that i knew his schedule- etc etc... He also totaled his car!! He has many many years of driving experience and he claims that he wasn't tired, speeding or using the cell phone (no signal in that area) - but suddenly on a road (curves, mountains) that he has driven many many times and knows like the back of his hand, he loses control and totals the car.. I just think there is something more to that story! I am still not home yet and i am really struggling! i just want to go get our daughter and run! I am afraid that if I file, the judge won't make him move out- he will tell me i have a home i can go to- again- in a remote area with the closest grocery store or minimum wage job- forty minutes away...I feel like a caged wounded animal! I can't stay where my home is for the sake of our daughter. i can't see that even filing will get him out- and i can't leave our daughter with him totally- he's so immature and she is at an age where she is so impressionable as she matures into a woman. That's all for now. i have left out a lot! Thanks...

 

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,

Welcome! I'm glad you're here too.

 

Yes, we've dealt with husbands like yours many times. There is hope.

 

Your husband needs to read the books. We generally recommend the nice approach first - ask him politely and (this is important!) give him a deadline. Two weeks is generally enough time to get through the first book, but obviously you will adjust that if his other responsibilities would make that difficult. Make it reasonable - we want him to succeed - but don't make it open ended or Jesus will be back before he gets around to it.

 

Now comes the hard part - what to do if he doesn't read them.

 

People do not change until it becomes too uncomfortable to remain the same. Your husband is abusive and totally clueless about what it means to be a Christlike man. Your marriage problems are 95% his fault. The other 5% is your responsibility, because you have allowed his behavior to continue.

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm beating up on you. I don't mean to make you feel bad or guilty. It is what it is, and you didn't know what to do. That's what we're going to help you with.

 

If he refuses to read the books, there needs to be a consequence. You need to think of something that would matter to him and that you are actually willing and able to do. For instance, since he cooks it doesn't look like he'd care if you didn't make dinner, so that's not a good consequence. However, if he's a TV watcher and you cancel the cable, that might get his attention. See if you can come up with something that would matter enough to him that he'd read the books.

 

If he flat out refuses no matter what you do, you need to file for divorce. The purpose of this is not to punish him, it's to hopefully make him wake up. Many men won't change until they realize their wife really is serious. If he thinks you'll never divorce him, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to treat you differently. He thinks you'll simply put up with his behavior like you always have. You'd be surprised at how many men are suddenly willing to participate in this ministry once they get the divorce papers!

 

Stay here and keep posting - we can help you find the strength to do this.

[4evrHZdtr3]

Thanks for the info. I will try a conference call when i get back to a land line. I am in a remote area with little phone signal for about ten days or so... Please see my post below with more history. I am going to order the first book soon.

 

Hi 4evr!

 

I'm glad you're here!

 

Have you read Joel and Kathy's two books yet? You really need to. They give the foundation message of this ministry. The books are called, The Man Of Her Dreams/ The Woman Of His and Livin' It And Lovin' It. You can get them by following the links on the God Save My Marriage web site.

 

Another great offering of the ministry is the couples' conference calls. Every night except Friday nights at 9 PM Eastern. The number is 1-512-716-6531 Access code: 981128# Even if you get on to just listen at first, you would find it interesting and maybe helpful.

 

Your husband needs a wakeup call. That's about all I can tell you for right now.

 

I would like to know more of your history though. For example,

 

1. How long have you been married?

2. Is it your first marriage?

3. Do you have children together?

4. Does your husband claim to be a Christian?

 

There is hope! Please write again.

 

[4evrHZdtr3]

I texted the web site name to my husband today. He didn't respond to the text. I texted him again with: "No response?" He then responded by saying he was on the website and thought he would like to buy the book. We'll see if he follows through!

[MaryJane]

I texted the web site name to my husband today. He didn't respond to the text. I texted him again with: "No response?" He then responded by saying he was on the website and thought he would like to buy the book. We'll see if he follows through!

Ah, that's good!

 

I suggest waiting a day or two, as you see fit, then tell him firmly that your marriage actually depends on his buying and reading the books! I had to get tougher (firmer) in my approach to my husband too.

 

I don't think you should do any more favours for him until he is well on his way to becoming a real husband to you! Leaving your own daughter in his untrustworthy care in order to look after HIS sister doesn't sound right! Your first responsibility is to your child.

 

God did not call YOU, the wife, to lay down your life for your husband. God meant it to be the other way around.

 

I know your husband did all that selfless work caring for your ex, but if he can't be depended on to protect his own daughter properly, you don't have to put HIS sister ahead of YOUR girl! Sorry, I'm just a little wound up about this.

 

Anyway, let's see how he does getting and reading those books.

 

I hope you can get on the conference calls soon.

 

God bless you 4evr! (I think I figured out your username... Does it read, "ForeverHisdaughter"? Maybe plural, "daughters"?)

[4evrHZdtr3]

Yes, that's the meaning of my user name. I am daughter # 3 in my family of origin. I don't mind you getting wound up- about my decision. I have a lot to learn and it seems like i have spent a lot of time telling myself other than the truth about who he is! I was somewhat stunned- (why? i don't know) by your comment, "God did not call you, the wife to lay down your life for your husband" I have always wanted him to show sacrificial love and he never does. It's always on his terms- IF he has the extra money or if it suits his schedule... then he's very generous and giving. I have never quite understood that and I have been blind to my extreme laying down of my own life. I just thought that was normal. I will say that i did pray about the trip to see his sister and felt OK to do that. I was able to get three friends on board to help watch out for our daughter- via the telephone- and part of our unhealthiness is that he creates crises and I normally rush in to solve them! So this trip was a chance for me to stop doing that. I got to know his sister and mother so much better- I learned a lot about the family history- and have much more understanding of why my husband is the way he is. I will do as you suggest regarding the book... THANK YOU!

 

Ah, that's good!

 

I suggest waiting a day or two, as you see fit, then tell him firmly that your marriage actually depends on his buying and reading the books! I had to get tougher (firmer) in my approach to my husband too.

 

I don't think you should do any more favours for him until he is well on his way to becoming a real husband to you! Leaving your own daughter in his untrustworthy care in order to look after HIS sister doesn't sound right! Your first responsibility is to your child.

 

God did not call YOU, the wife, to lay down your life for your husband. God meant it to be the other way around.

 

I know your husband did all that selfless work caring for your ex, but if he can't be depended on to protect his own daughter properly, you don't have to put HIS sister ahead of YOUR girl! Sorry, I'm just a little wound up about this.

 

Anyway, let's see how he does getting and reading those books.

 

I hope you can get on the conference calls soon.

 

God bless you 4evr! (I think I figured out your username... Does it read, "ForeverHisdaughter"? Maybe plural, "daughters"?)

[MaryJane]

I got to know his sister and mother so much better- I learned a lot about the family history- and have much more understanding of why my husband is the way he is.

That's nice. This understanding won't go amiss now.

 

Joel and Kathy have pointed out that Ephesians 5 is speaking only to the husband when it says for him to love his wife as Christ loved the church and laid down His life for her. They also point out that the only time the wife is told to love her husband is with the Greek word that means "affection" or responsive love. Not unconditional love. In-ter-estiing!

 

Of course, all Christians are to lay down their lives for one another, but IN Christian marriage the dynamics are meant to represent Christ and the body of believers! It's really a wonderful "mystery"!

 

I think the idea is, when the husband is loving his wife in a selfless, Christlike way, the woman is emotionally free to love him in return with all the selfless love that comes kind of naturally, anyway. Agape love can flow back and forth so freely that neither one knows who is responding to whom!

 

It needs to START with the husband -- and he needs to KEEP ON "starting" it.

 

Looking forward to hearing more!

[2dimeshift]

That's nice. This understanding won't go amiss now.

 

Joel and Kathy have pointed out that Ephesians 5 is speaking only to the husband when it says for him to love his wife as Christ loved the church and laid down His life for her. They also point out that the only time the wife is told to love her husband is with the Greek word that means "affection" or responsive love. Not unconditional love. In-ter-estiing!

 

Of course, all Christians are to lay down their lives for one another, but IN Christian marriage the dynamics are meant to represent Christ and the body of believers! It's really a wonderful "mystery"!

 

I think the idea is, when the husband is loving his wife in a selfless, Christlike way, the woman is emotionally free to love him in return with all the selfless love that comes kind of naturally, anyway. Agape love can flow back and forth so freely that neither one knows who is responding to whom!

 

It needs to START with the husband -- and he needs to KEEP ON "starting" it.

 

Looking forward to hearing more!

 

 

I'm looking at this thread and what I see is how everything is dependent upon the husband doing what he is supposed to do. If this was a thread advising the husband I would see that as entirely appropriate, I'm not sure what value it is to a woman to tell her in explicit detail how her husband is failing her. Is there a reason for that emphasis? When I am counseling someone I usually try to focus on what THEY can do not what they must insist someone else must do. Am I misunderstanding something here?

[MaryJane]

Am I misunderstanding something here?

Yes, you are.

 

Please read Joel and Kathy's two books, The Man Of Her Dreams The Woman Of His and Livin' It And Lovin' It. You may also feel free to speak to them, the authors, by phone at 1-386-206-3128.

[4evrHZdtr3]

OK, I got on my first conference call last night. It was very encouraging. I took away a nugget or three. I also bought the e-book version of the first book and have been reading it. I have had some new understanding from thinking about and reading Ephesians 5. I have had three or four conversations with my husband this last week or so. they all ended like this: (Me)"You are disrespecting and devaluing me when you make decisions alone and leave me out of the loop. It hurts my heart. We are supposed to be a team." (Him)"I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not true." with him trying to talk louder and faster than me to make yet another excuse as to why he did whatever he did. I am also getting ignored texts and ignored emails. He doesn't like that I am no longer tolerating and making excuses with him. I have had such a hard heart toward him. A few days ago, i decided to let down the hardness but still try to maintain my position. So instead of nagging him about forgetting to call me, I texted him a pretty picture of the front of me- no face, just my front, with a new shirt and necklace on and the words "forget something?" I thought it would make him smile and/or comment. he totally ignored it and then proceeded to argue when I brought it to his attention how he couldn't be expected to comment because it wasn't a very good picture!! I had two beers and went to bed. At least I didn't yell or call him names! That's progress!

[4evrHZdtr3]

I am just going to jump in here and comment: I have been helping my husband to stay disabled by making excuses for him and accepting his excuses. He has always had the choice to grow up, but I am now learning to disengage from the dance of yuk... Telling me what my husband is supposed to be, Biblically, helps me to get myself grounded and understand the way things are supposed to be. If one of us successfully disengages, then it will make that much more of an opportunity to choose healing. It's scary to be sure... and I have to keep reminding myself, that I am still responsible for me and my attitude- but i can see that there is a different way than I have been approaching it and I feel a tiny ray of hope!

[MaryJane]

This sounds GOOD, Forever! (May I call you that?)

 

You're beginning to see the concept that they teach here! God brought Eve to Adam to be a Help for him. He surely didn't mean for her to "help" him become more and more entrenched in his dysfunctions, by making excuses for his behavior. Or, in my case, by doing my level best to ignore the hurts and, to hide away and cry when they hurt too much.

 

A wife can have more effect on her husband than most of us have realized.

 

I'm glad you're already making progress by not yelling and calling him names. It's what some people refer to as coming from a position of strength. It's like the old analogy of the policeman. He has The Law behind him. Therefore when he says, show me your driver's licence we show it to him!

 

If a wife knows she has the Word of God behind her assuring her that her godly purpose is to help her husband become the best man he can be, she will know it's only right to point out when he is missing the mark. It will be easier to do this kindly but firmly too.

 

She will also be able to calmly respond to his abusiveness with the appropriate consequences. THIS is being his Help "meet" for him!

 

I found it scary too. I NEVER EVER wanted to have to confront or correct ANYBODY, let alone my husband, whose admiration I longed for! However, I didn't faint or fall over dead the times I had to do it!

 

I'm really glad you are feeling a ray of hope. If your husband only knew, the ray of hope is for him too!

 

God bless you, 4evr! Keep getting on the calls, even if it's just to listen, OK? Did they give you a suggestion last night for getting your husband to read the books?

[4evrHZdtr3]

Yes, you may call me 4evr. No problem... Thanks for the continuing encouragement. I particularly liked the parts about : "coming from a position of strength" and "knowing that I have the Word of God behind" me. I never knew that the purpose of being a help "meet" was to help my husband become more godly! He uses that Scripture to tell me that i should be doing things for him that he neglected to do, or couldn't remember and gets mad at me when i say I won't do for him what he can do for himself. Don't get me wrong, here. I understand doing things for him to bless him and i am willing to do that- but here's an example. I had to repeatedly tell him - over a period of several years- that i was not his personal alarm clock, before he finally started using his cell phone to wake himself. Another was, will you pay these bills I 'forgot' to take care of, so I can sleep longer? The answer to that is Yes, no problem, if you had not already spent an hour and a half watching TV, when you were supposed to be sleeping(he's a night time truck driver). The church teaches that we are not to tell our husbands when they are wrong or disobedient. In fact, as I am typing, I am thinking about the Scripture directed to wives that says: "win your husbands...without a word" how do I follow that one in light of what i am learning and you are sharing?

Another thing that happened very recently: i kept saying very forcefully, but not with meanness: "We are a team. When it comes to decisions about our daughter's medications or our community money, we get to decide these things together and compromise where necessary. You don't get to make these decisions by yourself and when you do i feel unloved and devalued as well as disrespected." He will then tell me he feels unloved by the way i am talking to him!! I surprised myself by saying: "I know you do feel unloved. it's because i am changing the rules, the way we relate to each other and I am sure it feels bad to you." And then i didn't feel guilty! YAY!

[Princess Fiona]

I'm sorry, I can't help but chime in here!

 

"win your husbands...without a word"

 

New perspective on that...don't SAY any more words, let your ACTIONS do the talking. Eg, if he disrespects you on the money, without saying a word, take the money away, and you take charge, because he has proved himself untrustworthy. No words necessary.

 

Human alarm clock thing! Just don't wake him up! No words necessary.

 

He will soon get the message eh? Seems so simple really doesn't it?

 

Hmmm....I seriously think I may be on to something here.

 

We'll have to see what Looney's take on it is!

[MaryJane]

He uses that Scripture to tell me that i should be doing things for him that he neglected to do, or couldn't remember and gets mad at me when i say I won't do for him what he can do for himself.

I think it's fascinating that when God saw Adam needed a Helper, suitable (meet) for him, he had no need for a cook or bottlewasher. I'm sure he was able to reach up and pick his food from the trees and other plants, for himself. And, of course, he had no need for an alarm clock...

 

What did he need Eve for? Not sex. It was because he was ALONE. (The following is my interpretation.) He needed another person to be in relationship with -- and she was suited to HELP him overcome self-centeredness.

 

It looks to me like winning one's husband without a word refers to winning a pagan husband of Paul's day. A CHRISTIAN (Christlike) husband would want his wife's input!

 

Anyway, I'm thinking "the word", in I Peter 3: 1, refers to the word of the gospel, not his wife's words.

 

I'm sure it makes a slight, but very important difference, whether the Bible was interpreted by men only, all through the centuries, or if there were a few women in on the work.

 

Hope I'm not soapboxing too much.

[4evrHZdtr3]

Ok.. this is not just co-incidence... ! I was just praying about 'taking the money' without a word... and I open this page...

 

I went back and looked very carefully at that Scripture. What I see is this: "Even if some do not obey the word..." I looked up that verse and "word" means a discourse OR motivation OR preaching OR something said OR... Divine Expression. So, this could be translated a number of ways... IF I ask or tell my husband something and he willfully disbelieves it or doesn't obey it, it would fall under this verse, would it not? Of course this also means the Word of God, I'm sure- it's just not restricted to that. Then: "they also may, without the (same) word be won by the chaste (properly clean and innocent)behavior of the wives"

So the idea is to quit talking and start acting and make sure that my motivation is innocent and clean- not designed to hurt him, but to do what is right.

It is right that I get to share in the decision making about community funds- if he 'forgets' to talk to me about it after I have spoken to him,(forgetting is what he does to escape responsibility. I am not just talking about occasional forgetfulness here. "I don't remember you saying that. or "I didn't think you meant that". or "I've had a rough night, I can't remember now", but later never comes)then I think I should take my half of it with no further words and let the dust settle where it will. I don't intend to spend it..because it's not about taking mine in a separate way- just using my action as leverage to back up my words- while possessing a willingness to co-operate with him if he shows reasonable faith about it. Yeah, that feels right...

[Looney_Tunes]

"win your husbands...without a word"

 

New perspective on that...don't SAY any more words, let your ACTIONS do the talking

 

Agreed. Unfortunately the majority of the church has taught that this means "shut up and pray."

 

He uses that Scripture to tell me that i should be doing things for him that he neglected to do, or couldn't remember

 

Well, in the right spirit this would be OK, since I firmly believe that God tends to bring opposites together because then we each have strengths that the other doesn't. Ideally each person does what he/she is good at, and life perks along nicely. However, most men seem to think that it means you will be his mommy - keep him fed and watered and clean up his messes. That's well and good for the dogs, not so much for a husband. <_>

 

IF I ask or tell my husband something and he willfully disbelieves it or doesn't obey it, it would fall under this verse, would it not? Of course this also means the Word of God, I'm sure- it's just not restricted to that. Then: "they also may, without the (same) word be won by the chaste (properly clean and innocent)behavior of the wives"

So the idea is to quit talking and start acting and make sure that my motivation is innocent and clean- not designed to hurt him, but to do what is right.

 

You got it!

 

just using my action as leverage to back up my words- while possessing a willingness to co-operate with him if he shows reasonable faith about it. Yeah, that feels right...

 

Exactly. Somebody's about to have his nice comfy world rocked a bit . . .

[Princess Fiona]

 

So the idea is to quit talking and start acting and make sure that my motivation is innocent and clean- not designed to hurt him, but to do what is right.

 

Exactly! Abigail took matters into her own hands when Nabal was living up to his name, no? Not for selfish reasons though. her actions saved lives, and even David recognised she had saved him from himself. Maybe you could look at it as protecting yourself, and, by default, you are also saving him from himself

 

 

It is right that I get to share in the decision making about community funds- if he 'forgets' to talk to me about it after I have spoken to him,(forgetting is what he does to escape responsibility. I am not just talking about occasional forgetfulness here. "I don't remember you saying that. or "I didn't think you meant that". or "I've had a rough night, I can't remember now", but later never comes)

 

It's good that you recognise what a ploy this is, and manipulation.

 

then I think I should take my half of it with no further words and let the dust settle where it will. I don't intend to spend it..because it's not about taking mine in a separate way- just using my action as leverage to back up my words- while possessing a willingness to co-operate with him if he shows reasonable faith about it. Yeah, that feels right...

[4evrHZdtr3]

Yes, he is! About to get his nice comfy world rocked. I am sitting here feeling a lot of fear, but I am six hundred and fifty miles from him also. He wouldn't be physically abusive, but the emotional stuff is where I have always caved. I am completely sure of what I have done.. i.e. i won't spend the money on anything until we talk and come to an agreement. And then, I will still not just hand it over to him. I will maintain control of it, because its just my half of the insurance payout for our car that he totaled. Today will be a good day to let him know that there are also going to be deadlines for the book reading, the taxes, etc... I will let him know that I am FOR him no matter what he feels and I am so thankful he will have a week to cool down before I get there! Thanks for all the explanations and encouragement.. I am getting it.

 

As a second question.. I don't quite know how to do the posting on this board. I see my messages getting posted, but when I hit reply to someone else's, it automatically duplicates what I am replying to. When there are two of you on there, I want to respond individually. I have been deleting the content that shows up in the reply box that so that the duplication stops? Don't know if that's right?... Is there a primer on how to do this? Thanks

[Nvr2late]

Look a little lower to the blue box marked Reply. Use that and it won't quote the previous poster. HTH

[4evrHZdtr3]

This is to Princess Fiona:

You used the words 'ploy' and 'manipulation'. I don't think it's consciously done on his part but is part of a lifelong habit of being self protective and self serving...These actions serve to keep him from having to be open and responsible, but is it right to call it manipulation? Because I think of manipulation as a conscious, deliberate action. ????

[MaryJane]

I like Princess Fiona's example from Abigail's life. It certainly applies here, even though Mr. 4evr doesn't sound nearly as Nabal-ish. He probably even means well.

 

So many of us, male and female alike, simply had NO idea!

[Princess Fiona]

This is to Princess Fiona:

You used the words 'ploy' and 'manipulation'. I don't think it's consciously done on his part but is part of a lifelong habit of being self protective and self serving...These actions serve to keep him from having to be open and responsible, but is it right to call it manipulation? Because I think of manipulation as a conscious, deliberate action. ????

 

This is very difficult to answer, and you will have to no doubt ask God to open your eyes and give you your own revelation, and see it for yourself. But yes, it is indeed a ploy and manipulation. It is so ingrained, that partly it is done subconsciously. Which he is still accountable and responsible for.

 

One way to be able to see it for yourself is, how much stuff does he "forget" that is important to him I used to do all kinds of mental acrobatics to excuse my husbands behaviour. Everyone else in our lives thinks he's a nice guy. Well, that's because he has been nice, and kind, to them. Not to me. He knows the difference between right and wrong, kindness and cruelness. And when necessary, he treats people that way. If these behaviours in these men, weren't, on some level, a DELIBERATE choice, if they have some kind of "disorder", then surely, these behaviours, whatever they might be, would manifest themselves then across the board, with all people, at all times, in all situations. Not just selectively at home, with their wives. Also, before you married, was he this way? He KNOWS what he is doing.

 

Do you remember learning to drive? How every manoeuvre was conscious, and deliberate? But now, you're just on auto pilot sometimes? That, I think explains it best. They are just so used to doing it, and so practised, and good at it, its effortless, and this gives it an appearance of it being something that is "just the way they are" and they have no control over it.

 

Its a bad habit, that they have cultivated, and they are now responsible for changing.

 

It was very painful, and very hard for me to believe it from this perspective. Its difficult to reconcile in your head. You must be able to start seeing it like this though, otherwise you will find yourself doubting yourself, about actions you may need to take, to mitigate against his behaviour, and wanting to go "easy" on him, because you feel sorry for him, and want to make allowances, and not be able to give him the tough love he needs.

 

I think, where the disconnect comes in with these guys is, they KNOW it's wrong, they just don't CARE, because, up to now, we have enabled, and allowed the behaviour, and suffered the consequences for their actions ourselves. They didn't need to care.

 

Reading the book by Lundy Bancroft, "why does he do that?" opened my eyes in a lot of ways.