Been Here Before, Back Again

[Thankful for Gracey]

Hello,

 

I haven't posted in a week, so I need to update things. We have been doing pretty well. TFG worked night shifts last week, so we don't see each other much, so we didn't do any real serious talking or anything. He posted on his thread and it seemed to be all about how he is doing so great, and I told him I didn't appreciate that, and he apologized. He had also said that we had "a couple of good weeks," and since those weeks included my posts above where I was in agony, I felt like he didn't understand me at all.

 

Two or three things that have come up:

 

I noticed that last night TFG asked Joel for access to the men's private "venting" forum. In light of my need for openness and transparency on his part, as well as his repeated promises that he is absolutely fine with the state of things right now, this makes me sad and mad. If he needs to be on that forum, then he has stuff he wants to vent or else stuff he wants to say that would hurt my feelings, so he isn't fine with things. This is the "old" TFG, saying everything is fine when he is really upset. So this is a setback in my eyes, and once again I feel like I don't have any idea what he really thinks about anything. Joel has not granted him access yet.

 

Another thing that happened last night. TFG made a comment when we were all watching TV that some actor had been arrested for drugs. I said, "Wow. Someone in Hollywood on drugs. No way." My daughter also joked about it. Then I said, "I almost pointed out, 'so did you.'" Well, our 9yo son heard this and looked shocked. At the time of TFG's arrest, our son knew about it, of course. Apparently he has forgotten or blocked it out. He began crying, and I took him in my lap and told him, "It is okay. Remember when Daddy stayed in the apartments, and he went to Celebrate Recovery? It was then. That is in the past and he doesn't do anything like that anymore." Well, at first TFG just sat there, staring at the TV with his jaw muscle twitching like it does sometimes. Finally, AFTER we were finished talking and M was just sitting in my lap, TFG came over and sat with us for a minute. He did not say a WORD to me or to our son. In my eyes, he should have immediately come over and told M, "Yes, that happened and I am very sorry. I will never do something like that again," and other healing words. I am not sure what message it sent to our son that his dad never acknowledged the situation, the truth of what I had said, etc.

 

Finally, last week TFG and I had a "quickie" since we hadn't done anything in a week and he had to work that night. I inititated the quickie. Afterward, he said something about how that was nice, "but I don't think it was quite 15 minutes." Well, I don't know if Joel has said something about quickies being 15 minutes or what, but that ticked me off. It is VERY hard for me to put myself out there, and ML is a very vulnerable place, and here he is, acting as if I let him down in this area, and making jokes. So that was not cool. I just turned around a jokingly said, "I will HURT you," but we didn't really talk about it.

 

I feel like perhaps he is already getting tired of being the good guy (since he has asked to be on the "venting forum") and/or feels like I am not trying hard enough (since he made a smart remark about the quickie). This does not make me feel safe at all.

 

So that is my update.

 

Blessings, Gracey

Gracey, please forgive me for my actions last night about the TV actor. My pride flared up again and I really should have taken it and gone on. I was upset that M was upset about it after all, that is a part of my life in which I am really not proud of and it did hit a sore spot with me. I mis read the comment about me getting arrested for drugs as an attack. Later, when I went to bed to read, M came in there and I explained to him that, at that time, I made a bad mistake that I am forever regretful for. I had made choices that I wasn't proud of and that I would never do that again and that I loved him very much. I did explain to him though.

As far as the comment about the "quickie" I am truly sorry that I even made that. I know it must have made you feel used and unappreciated. After I said if, I knew I messed up and it was very childish of me to mention it, even as a joke. I know that you did that for me and you didn't have to. If you hadn't I would have totally understood. I should have said something at that time instead of letting it escalate to where it is now. I appreciate you more than you would ever know.

When we ML, it is the most wonderful feeling in the world to be close to you and to hold you and for me just to feel fortunate to even be in the same house, I should be so grateful. I am aware that at times I don't act to appreciative, but I am sorry and ask your forgivness and I will NEVER do that again. You are my life and I love you very much. I am so sorry to hurt you and that it isn't done on purpose, it's just my maturity taking a back seat.

TFG

Edited August 2, 2010 by Thankful for Gracey

[gracey520]

Gracey, please forgive me for my actions last night about the TV actor. My pride flared up again and I really should have taken it and gone on. I was upset that M was upset about it after all, that is a part of my life in which I am really not proud of and it did hit a sore spot with me. I mis read the comment about me getting arrested for drugs as an attack. Later, when I went to bed to read, M came in there and I explained to him that, at that time, I made a bad mistake that I am forever regretful for. I had made choices that I wasn't proud of and that I would never do that again and that I loved him very much. I did explain to him though.

 

When you spoke to me about this in the car, you said the above with the exception that you did not offer an apology. You just said that you saw it as an attack, throwing up your drug use again, and you talked to Micah after. So of course you were mad at me and did NOT talk to me, you just waited until Micah came back there and you could talk to him alone. I don't know if I was wrong to bring up the drug arrest. All I know is that I have suffered a tremendous amount because of it and now you want to get mad when it is brought up. So it is a form of venting that I bring it up, because I am still mad at all I have lost because of it. Yes, it has been 4 years, but it has only been about a month that you have been safe for me to vent to. Until tonight. Don't feel safe anymore.

[J_W]

Gracey, please forgive me for my actions last night about the TV actor. My pride flared up again and I really should have taken it and gone on. I was upset that M was upset about it after all, that is a part of my life in which I am really not proud of and it did hit a sore spot with me. I mis read the comment about me getting arrested for drugs as an attack. Later, when I went to bed to read, M came in there and I explained to him that, at that time, I made a bad mistake that I am forever regretful for. I had made choices that I wasn't proud of and that I would never do that again and that I loved him very much. I did explain to him though.

As far as the comment about the "quickie" I am truly sorry that I even made that. I know it must have made you feel used and unappreciated. After I said if, I knew I messed up and it was very childish of me to mention it, even as a joke. I know that you did that for me and you didn't have to. If you hadn't I would have totally understood. I should have said something at that time instead of letting it escalate to where it is now. I appreciate you more than you would ever know.

When we ML, it is the most wonderful feeling in the world to be close to you and to hold you and for me just to feel fortunate to even be in the same house, I should be so grateful. I am aware that at times I don't act to appreciative, but I am sorry and ask your forgivness and I will NEVER do that again. You are my life and I love you very much. I am so sorry to hurt you and that it isn't done on purpose, it's just my maturity taking a back seat.

TFG

 

The apology re: the quickie was a nice apology (still in shock that you would say that -- especially after seeing the postings from other men on this forum who would be absolutely ELATED if their wife would be willing to be part of a quickie, and especially for her to have initiated - )

HOWEVER, the apology re: your embarrassment that she outed you re: the drugs does NOT include the validation in the LOVER == what YOU did way back then with the drugs HURT HER, your remarks re: the TV actor reminded her of the wounds and reopened the pain of it -- you should also tell your son that this hurt his mother, too, and it was wrong to throw Gracey under the bus when she revealed this sin of yours.

 

Children see the hypocrisy --

Children NEED to see that their mother is being treated properly by her husband! THIS is very important.

 

You've just recently hurt Gracey by wanting to share stuff on the private forum (out of her view), fortunately that plan is over--

 

So, what is up with you?

 

Have you admitted yet as to what type of abuser you are? If not, I beg you to go to the "Please read this section first" and go through the abuse list -- listen to the call that it links to -- and get real with this.

 

These are major things to your wife' heart -- and SHE is who you need to be focusing on bringing healing, right? I know you want to --

 

It is YOUR responsibility before God to cherish her - to help her feel safe!

I feel like perhaps he is already getting tired of being the good guy (since he has asked to be on the "venting forum") and/or feels like I am not trying hard enough (since he made a smart remark about the quickie). This does not make me feel safe at all.

So that is my update.

 

This needs to be handled with sincerity and true REPENTance, carefully VALIDATING her feelings,

 

prayerfully for your consideration,

June of

Edited August 3, 2010 by Ward & June

[maggie's jublee]

So for you and ___; some of the advice you hear Joel and the other moderators giving on the calls may not always apply totally to your situation; regarding being intimate with your wife! Sure, lovemaking is a very important and necessary ingredient in a marriage; for a husband and wife to bond together; but when it's done in such a way that it brings pain and hurt again to a wife; that only increases the time limit for more wounds and pain; and is in some ways subjecting her to more abuse again! So you might have to put aside your wants and feelings for a time; and just love Pink in the ways she needs to be loved to feel safe; when you can show her that you're really sincere in learning how to bless her; and love her in Christlike ways ALL the time; every day, every hour, every minute; she'll start to relax around you, her cortisol level will lessen, and she can trust you again!

 

It's great that you came here and posted your comments and questions; now just take the advice that's given to you; and DO IT!!!

 

Gracey and TFG - as I read this on another thread I thought it might help you.

 

Love, Maggie

[JoelandKathy]

Not bad in the apology department though.

 

Everyone is pointing out this:

 

1. Though I suggested that you were not wanting to get into the private section to complain about Gracey - you need to affirm that or not. You touched a wound in your wife. I assumed it was innocent.. maybe not though. What say you?

 

2. Your apology does need to be appended to - that it was your drug use that caused the current problems.. not the fact that your wife is venting by saying something like that.

[gracey520]

Before I could read the posts this morning, we had a huge blowout about this. We did finally resolve it. It was our first post-Intensive blowout, with the old TFG in evidence. I had started thinking that guy was about gone. But I was furious and he was defensive and we went into our old pattern.

 

He did get furious as well, slamming his Bible and getting into my face at one point, so that was scary. He also complained that I "blast stuff all over the forum" instead of talking to him, which hurt, and that I never tell him to his face that he is doing good. He also said he feels like I want him to fail and that nothing he does is right.

 

But at some point I explained that it has only been a month that it has been safe to talk to him, and we have terrible communication skills that are going to take a long time to improve, so the forum is a safe place for me. He finally understood that and gave me a good apology.

 

I also talked about him giving a vague explanation to our son M, and NOT saying anything about how the drug use hurt me and hurt our family. He also told M that "it was a long time ago."

I explained to him that, at that time, I made a bad mistake that I am forever regretful for. I had made choices that I wasn't proud of and that I would never do that again and that I loved him very much. I did explain to him though.

 

This vagueness is a way that TFG has used to distance himself from his wrongs. Like I have said before, he has a hard time being specific. (It reminds me of hearing Zig Ziglar say, "Don't deal in 'vague generalities,' deal in 'meaningful specifics.'") So I explained to him that it should have been more like, "I did use drugs and I got arrested. That is why your mother and I had to get divorced, and it was part of the reason we lost Emma. We don't talk about it a lot, but sometimes it just pops out because it hurt your mom so much."

 

I told TFG that one reason the comment may have popped out as it did is that I would have been registering Emma for kindergarten this week if we hadn't lost her. That has made the wound seem recent and not "a long time ago." I told him that yes, it was a long time ago but I am still paying for it every day, and I didn't DO IT. (At first he was mad and saying, "I pay for it every day, too!" but I told him, "YOU DID IT. You should be the one paying! I DIDN'T DO IT and I still pay." He later calmed down and acknowledged this.)

 

It was not the most fun way to start your day at 4:30 a.m., but it did end in a hug and a good apology, so that is helpful.

 

Dory and Nemo, I am sorry we did not get on the call last night. I had to drive some students to Atlanta (about 3 hrs each way) and brought my niece back with us, so by the time I got back it was late. It would have been an excellent time to get on the call, except for having company in the house. Thanks so much for being available, though.

 

Blessings, Gracey

[savedbygrace98]

Hello~

 

Just catching up with your progress. Even with the bumps (sometimes mountains!) sounds like you're making progress. Praying that your recovery will be effective and bring glory to the Lord- a beacon, a shining light!!

 

Please pray for us as our journey is getting rather rough.

[dory]

Dory and Nemo, I am sorry we did not get on the call last night.

 

No problem. We totally understand that some nights it just doesn't work out. I don't mind when someone doesn't take our offer of help - their choice.

 

But I AM bothered when they cries (thinking TFG here) "no one helped me in this area" AFTER we offered that help. He can't ignore our suggestion and then go and say that.

 

not cool in my book.

[gracey520]

Hello all,

 

TFG posted on his thread about how we have backslidden, and I am just here to put it on my thread as well. I am very tired and don't really feel like posting, but I will.

 

Long story short, I warned TFG early last week that with him working so many hours and odd shifts, I was feeling distanced from him. He agreed and we talked about it briefly. He agreed that he would decline any overtime for this weekend so that we could go away together or do something. Anyway, he was assigned to work OT on Saturday, so that knocked out that day. Tuesday, we texted about our schedules and agreed we would go away on Sunday/Monday. He got kind of mushy and I told him not to get all hokey, because I am just not there right now. But I am willing to go away and try to renew things.

 

So THAT NIGHT, he walks in and tells me in front of the kids that he was offered OT on Sunday, and tells them how much he would make, and says, "That would make 52 hours of OT in one pay period" LIKE IT IS A GOOD THING. He drives 2 1/2 hrs round trip, and works 12 hr shifts. So he would be driving for about 30 hrs, working 40 hrs regular time, and working 52 hrs OT. 122 hrs away from his family in 2 weeks, when we are less than 2 months out from the marriage intensive.

 

Also, this is the passive man thing, because he didn't ACCEPT the overtime, but he puts it out there without actually asking me what I thought - just announced it (telling our kids, my daughter's boyfriend, and our exchange student how much money he would make!!!). This way, if I said, "Go for it," he can have his precious OT and not get in trouble for reneging on our plans, but if I said (which I did later), "You said you weren't going to take anymore OT," he could say, "Oh, I didn't TAKE it, I just said it was OFFERED." Let's play some word games, why don't we? UGH in the biggest way possible.

 

So he ISN'T taking the overtime, but I could absolutely NOT CARE LESS if I ever spend any time alone with him. I told him yesterday in an email (paraphrased) - "You are the one pursuing me, and operating out of romantic feelings. I am operating on sheer faith that this is the right thing to do. If you don't care to spend time with me, why on earth do you think I am going to be dying to spend time with YOU?"

 

I really really really want to go with the emotional divorce option at this point -- live in the same house, let him provide $$, and let's all just be civil. I have tried to open myself up more to him romantically, emotionally, and s**ually since the Intensive, but his actions say that all he wants to be is a paycheck. FINE BY ME.

 

Gotta run some errands. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

Gracey

[maggie's jublee]

Gracey,

 

I am praying for you, PEACE of mind and Peace in your heart! Right now I know that circumstances around me have compounded lack of peace for you and I am sincerely sorry for those events!

 

I wish I were there to hug you and help you thru this time! I miss you already! I know that GOD wants ALL of these issues resolved and settled for you and TFG!

 

Please know that I am praying and will continue to be there for you (what is distance to God?)!!

 

I love you!!!

 

Maggie

[C2]

Gracey:

 

I get what your saying. I know what its like to be married to a workaholic. There is always plenty of work out there for a guy that knows what he's doing and isn't afraid of work. That guy has got to learn to set limits. Otherwise he will sacrifice his wife for his self and his own workaholic gratification.

 

Keep holding his feet to the fire. We'll help.

 

Is he reading 10 minutes every night in the J&K books even if he is tired? Think of it as the food for the new synapses. They can't go more than 24 hours without food. If they don't get fed daily, they will dry up and die and then you will be starting from scratch.

 

Have you seen the movie CLICK? There may be some bedroom scenes you need to fast forward through but it drives a good point about how work creeps in and takes over.

[gracey520]

Posted on his thread: http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/2816-last-chance-for-success/page__pid__92913__st__60entry92913

 

I am really mad. He has blown it with this "I could work overtime on Sunday" when we were supposed to go out of town together. He might as well have just punched me in the stomach. He totally disrespected me by even mentioning overtime after promising no more, and now over on his thread he is acting like this is the first time it's been brought to his attention that he is a workaholic.

 

Soooo tired.

 

Maggie, I miss you very much. But you wouldn't need to be around me today, as I am not able to lift you up, and you need it. But I am trying not to speak death, and even though I am very down in the dumps, I am still trusting God and knowing He has amazing plans for me. Just don't trust TFG and his plans.

Edited September 2, 2010 by gracey520

[gracey520]

Well, we have talked some and I feel like we are at an impasse. I have no idea how to proceed.

 

I was honest with TFG and told him that after all the lies and so forth for all these years, I have very little feelings for him. Because of this, I do not have any interest in continuing to try to tell him what to do. And he is extremely passive, and if things are status quo and no one is angry, he is content. So he isn't going to come up with ideas. He has given me flowers and cards, and that is very nice. It's not like he isn't trying to think of something, we just haven't hit on anything that really speaks to me.

 

I don't even know what I want him to do because we have spent so much time apart that I don't know what works for us. The only thing we ever do together is go to a movie, dinner, or church. We don't have any mutual interests at all, other than our family. And communication is so difficult because even though I know he will listen to me, we don't have anything in common to talk about. I love books, concepts, and studying, he is hands-on and mechanical. We have so little time together that it's not like we can start a project together.

 

It had never dawned on him until I told him that with the work schedules he has had ever since I have known him, the kids and I have our own life. He and our son have their own relationship and their own stuff they do together, but as for TFG and me, and my kids, he just attends whatever I already have going. We don't have a single thing that is "ours." We never have.

 

Like I said, I have no idea how to proceed. He wants things to work, but he has no idea what to do, and I am past caring very much. We have had 17 years with no real communication and nothing in common. For a long time, I was crazy in love with him, and that made things seem pretty good.

 

Any advice?

[ChristyK]

Gracey - I understand completely. I hate that this has been going on and I did not know.

 

I have no advice, but know that I love you and miss you!!!!

[gracey520]

Just thought I would check in and see if TFG had posted anything. We had a huge blowout Friday a.m. and I spent most of the weekend in bed with the worst bout of depression I have had in years.

 

Gracey

[Thankful for Gracey]

Just thought I would check in and see if TFG had posted anything. We had a huge blowout Friday a.m. and I spent most of the weekend in bed with the worst bout of depression I have had in years.

 

Gracey

 

Gracey, I haven’t posted for the reason of wanting to think about what transpired. I was selfish and uncaring of your feelings. I was more concerned about how I was going to communicate with you. I was angry about my promises that I had broke and losing out all the way around. I was ill because M had made a mess and tried to hide it. I blew up at him and for that I am very sorry. I apologized to him and talked to him today. That will not happen again. I know I upset him and he was devastated. For him, I know that hurt. He wrote me a note to me that he had heard us arguing and he was upset at that also. When I do the things I do, I upset everyone and for this I am very sorry.

As I mentioned to you I think this all goes back to how my father was about money and how I am concerned about paying the bills. I am not going to volunteer for any more OT but as they schedule, I have no control over that. The almighty dollar isn’t worth the pain and the agony that the whole family has undertaken, especially you. You have too much on your plate as it is and don’t need me to add to what you have already. You do not deserve what I have put you through. My request for attention from you is a selfish request and for that, I am very sorry. From this point forward, when you are busy at the computer, I will not disturb you. I will hold on to what I have to say till later.

When I was doing my Bible study, I ran across this saying from Proverbs 29:20. “There is more hope for a fool than for someone who speaks without thinking” this rang a bell with me and as I have said before that it’s what comes out of the mouth that is unclean….I am so sorry for my hurtful words as if you haven’t worked as hard as I have on our marriage. That was a stupid remark on my part. You have worked on me for 17 years. It has been me that has been the catalyst of our problems. I have made a vow to become even more spiritual in our relationship and let God do his thing with me. I may not like what He does, but I know the outcome will be well worth anything He has planned for me.

Another passage from Proverbs 17:27, 28 say “A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue” This make me understand to myself that I need to be even more involved in the Word than what I am today. I need God to reveal to me BEFORE I go off like I did. I should be dying to you everyday and to be seeking His wisdom everyday also. For my lacking in doing so, I ask your forgiveness. I am aware that it isn’t hard for me to ask this but I do know it’s hard for you to accept. This is something I can be patient with. It didn’t take overnight to get myself in this mess and I realize it won’t be overnight till your heart is healed. I am not going to give up on our marriage by no means. I will be there whenever you need me or want me no matter what!! My heart is with you and this ordeal has been another eye opener for me that I will not soon forget. It is said people learn from their mistakes. I can’t stand too many more of these. I don’t like them nor do I like being the cause of them. As I mentioned before, I must stay in the Word and practice what God has said for me to do as a husband.

You are my world

 

I am

TFG

[JoelandKathy]

Update from Gracey!

 

Yes, we are together and doing better, praise GOD! We might get back on the forum. We did use many of your "methods" to get to a better place. It is his bday today and I was able to get a card that said he is a wonderful husband, and I meant it. Blessings!