JJ

TNM and I just talked and he is changing his tune. He finally listened without correcting me and started to take responsibility without blaming me. That has lifted the negative feelings and if he continues in a positive direction hopefully that will restore the positive feelings.

Kay and Abigail, Thank you for your encouragement. I'm not sure yet how to proceed but appreciate your support. Joel, In May I told TNM that I felt like the forum was taking too much time away from our time together and would rather talk with him than both of us sit in the same room on separate computers using the forum. Also I was hurt by how he would post things to other men that were so good but then he would not follow his own advice. It was just like listening to his sermons and wishing he would apply his own teaching as I have done for so many years. Maybe I made a mistake in saying those things and discouraged him too much. He did say to Jeff and Heather that he thought I needed to control him concerning posting on the forum. They told him that wasn't the right way to look at it but when we talked about it later he maintained his point that it is control. I do not want to talk to him about it again because it will lead to another argument. In fact I am afraid of what his reaction to all of these recent posts on his thread will be. The pattern for our entire marriage has been when I bring up a problem or hurt in our relationship TNM would refuse to discuss that topic and then blame me for not saying "I love you" and not saying positive words of encouragement. Sometimes he would tell me that when I began to love, honor and cherish him as I should then we would have a good relationship. At one point he let me know that if I said "I love you" in response to his saying it then it didn't count because I did not initiate it. So from that point on it became painful for me to hear him say "I love you" because every time I would feel this terrible sense of failure because I had not initiated the words and if I said it back it didn't count. It was so terrible. Another experience with the words "I love you" has been that in the early months of our marriage TNM would say the words "I love you" many times a day. One day I told him that I didn't need to hear the words, I needed him to show me that he loved me with his actions. What good are the words if the actions don't match up. From the beginning of our marriage what he wanted was what mattered most. Listening my feelings was important in dating but not after marriage. I discovered last year that for many years he was upset with me saying, "Don't just tell me you love me, show me." I wasn't talking about gifts either, just kind, decent treatment. Hearing those three words is associated with so much pain. I hate that. When I tried to talk about our intimate relationship in the past he was not interested. He considered my needs in that area "hoops to jump through" and said that to me more than once. Today it seems that I am the only one that has needs for physical intimacy and discussing it does not go well to this day. I am at a loss as to how to approach this problem. When I say things that he thinks are unfair or not accurate or cause him pain, then he cuts me off and does not want to listen. Last night at one point we were headed for an argument about something I said that he did not agree with my perspective. I clearly and calmly said, "You have two choices- You can listen to how I see this and try to understand or you can try to make me understand how you see it." I repeated this to him, it was so clear to me how he didn't like what I was saying but had the opportunity to gain understanding and allow me my perspective. He said, "No, there is another way." and went on to explain his perspective. How much longer can I do this? I am no longer his essential ally, but someone he considers to be a foe.

Peter, I heard you on the call last night and would like to share a couple of thoughts with you that might help you make progress in healing your wife. Your wife began by sharing how scared she was when you stayed outside of the house when you dropped off the children, it was creepy and threatening to her and her friend. At the point she tells you something like that it is vitally important that you listen and begin to try to understand why she feels that way. If you continue the pattern of trying to explain and defend your behavior she will not continue to share with you and you will continue to put your feelings first and the healing will not come. Also at the end she shared that she felt as if she had no choice to marry you because you were so compelling. Again at that point it is your job to find out why she felt that way and not defend yourself against her feelings that are causing you pain. If you will work to understand her and put her before yourself you will begin to grow. Yes, it will help you mature and bring you out of the state of self-focus that you have been living in. The way you reacted to those two statements made by your wife made it very clear that you didn't understand why she felt the way she did and that it was most important to you to defend yourself, this is your opportunity to become the man God is calling you to be . It is good to see that you are committing yourself to the process of bringing healing to your wife and marriage. It will be challenging, but call on God for help so that you can be a safe place for your wife to share and you will grow.

We are in the middle of a huge conflict. I am struggling with how to explain it. Today TNM told me that we are having trouble because I am so arrested that I will not allow success. I told him that he is not listening or valuing my thoughts and feelings. He gets so concerned with how what I say hurts his feelings and can't be compassionate towards me because he thinks what I am saying is not accurate. It is so difficult for me to talk to him, it keeps turning into a lecture about how I am mistreating him or making judgmental statements. He has changed so many outward bad behaviors and wants me to only look at that. When it comes to how he treats me emotionally it's back to the same old ways. He blames me for not responding warmly, for not letting two out of three go, for not saying "I love you" to him and one more thing that I can't remember right now. This is the same old thing of the last 22 years! It all comes down to what I am doing or not doing. I don't know how much more I can take. I have taken my dreams off the shelf and opened myself up to love him and have a one flesh relationship and what I get is rejection! I want to run away!!!!! But he told me if I leave he will not keep working on our marriage, that it is over. I just need a safe place, time to recover. I don't know what to do.

Purple, It's good to hear your positive report. There is hope. I am praying for you and your family.

JakeG, I agree with Sunshine, the generalities of the letter are good but specifics would be better. One other point I would add is that the first part sounds like you are telling her how she has to respond. I don't believe that is your intention but how it might come across. Probably the last thing she wants to hear from you is how she should feel or what she should think so eliminating that part or changing it to not sound directive could help. I pray she will receive your apology and that you will be able to live it as well.

August, Perhaps the reason you are not looking forward to Father's day is because you are focused on yourself, how you feel and what you want. Yes it is a day to honor fathers but you are in the process of learning to become the man God has called you to be and that means for a time you have to focus on the needs of your ex-wife and children and forget about your own needs. The reason your marriage ended up in the pain and problems it did is because from the beginning you let your feelings become more important than your wife's. You probably did not know that it was important that you learn to meet her needs and listen to her heart to develop a good relationship. Now you know and need to work at becoming Christ-like and that begins with being concerned with the well-being of your ex-wife and children before yourself. This is not a quick process and because you are divorced it is extremely challenging. However focusing on learning new thought patterns and behavior will benefit your children and make your ex-wife easier to communicate with and perhaps heal your relationship. Your post from about a week ago concerning the text messages about insurance payments reveals why you are having difficulties communicating with your wife. The quotes that Purple pointed out to you are all things that will drive your ex-wife away and convince her that you have not changed at all. You communicated to her that you feel you are doing great things for her and not getting the recognition you deserve. It was about you getting the response from her that you expected instead of you agape loving her without expectations of reward or recognition. You have indicated that you continue to pray for your family and that is great. Are you studying Joel and Kathy's books and scripture concerning marriage? Continual study is very necessary. Also listen in on the calls to keep learning. Back to Father's Day...what a privilege it will be to spend time with the blessings God has given you, your children. You will have that time to share experiences with them, teach them a new skill, love them. You don't need to spoil them, but truly be interested in and active with them. Satan uses our self-centered thoughts to distract us into worrying about what isn't fair while we lose sight of what is truly important. Don't let that happen, take this opportunity to show your children what it means to be Christ-like.

wm, Your post above to purple shows the attitude of a husband who is learning and growing. The post you made that was deleted from your wife's thread shows the attitude of an immature child. Your wife will struggle to feel safe with you when you have emotional outbursts such as that. I am not trying to scold you but let you know that your choice of words and sarcasm affect your family and others in ways you may not be aware of. Pure in Heart has a good point. This doesn't mean that wives should not respond positively, but that you need to avoid pointing a finger at her when you think it is her turn. Just keep seeking God and His direction for you.

ulysee, A couple of thoughts for you. When you say things like this your wife feels pressure from you to do what you want her to and then makes her feel as if she might not be able to trust you. We are working on using validation in our family and one thing I am realizing is that I don't have to agree with what the other person is saying but try to understand their feelings. It is about letting someone share their emotions and learning to care about how they feel. We learn from it as well. Painful feelings that are expressed, acknowledged and validated by a trusted listener will diminish. Painful feelings that are ignored will gain strength. That is likely the reason your wife is struggling with depression. Purple said: Purple is right on...crazy things in a woman's head, that's true. And who can your wife talk to? Ultimately she needs to talk to you about it and you need to begin to understand the tremendous hurt this has caused. When she does talk to you about it you will need to validate all of her feelings and not give any explanations but take full responsibility for your neglect. Sad thing is not only has this caused your wife great emotional pain, but you have also missed out on this important bonding experience which has also created distance between the two of you. It is good to see you learning and growing, keep it up.

lbf, It is good that you posted your real struggle on the forum because that will allow you to face it and get good help. You said: It is likely your wife feels this way because it is how you have been treating her. If this is true it is also likely that you are unaware of it but she can help you identify your self-centered behaviors if you will listen to her heart. (You have probably heard that before.) There is a great resource here on the forum that can help you with learning how to listen to your wife's heart. Go to the Forum Index and near the bottom is a section titled "Various Life Issues..." In that section you can find threads on "Validation" and "Invalidation" probably on the second page. Read both of them to learn about those concepts, then print off the Validation section to study EVERY DAY. When my husband validates what I say to him our conversations are calm and rational. When my husband invalidates what I say to him we end up in conflict, the habit that we have had for many years. When your wife shares a hurt with you and you reply with comments such as, "I didn't mean to hurt you." or "That wasn't my intention." or "You misunderstood." you are INVALIDATING her feelings and essentially telling her that her perceptions are wrong and therefore she doesn't matter because you understand the reality of the situation. Also you have gained no understanding in the situation but certainly devalued her once again. IT IS NOT ABOUT WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG, WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS GAINING UNDERSTANDING. As the husband lead the way to understanding, you don't have to agree with your wife's perceptions but you must learn to value them. While doing this you value her and you will learn things that will help you grow as well. Keep posting your struggles so you can receive help from others who are on this journey with you. Sometimes we hesitate to post negative things because we are embarrassed but this is a deception of the enemy. If we avoid seeking help he is better able to discourage us. Go look up validation and begin to learn.

That's it! Seek to win her back by listening to her heart. Quit trying to convince her of how wrong divorce is or of other options. Continue learning to value her as your equal. She is your essential ally, the one you cannot do battle without. In some ways she is more valuable than you. Keep seeking God and His wisdom.

hw 22, It's so good to see you posting here! It is great that your husband is willing begin the process of becoming the man God has called him to be. You have just begun to learn what it means to be the true help meet that God created you to be. You are your husband's essential ally, the one he cannot do battle without. You recognized that your marriage was not the way it should be. You found God's truth in Joel and Kathy's books, and told your husband it was time to learn how to have the marriage God intended from creation. The answers to your problems are now in front of you both and the journey to restoration is beginning. The progress you make may be slow but that can be good because often that is more enduring than changes that happen too quickly. The most important thing is to keep going in the right direction and don't become discouraged when it isn't as fast as you would like. It is often two steps forward, one step back and when that happens it feels like it might never get better. Don't allow yourself to lose sight of the goal and continue on. Kathy advises a wife to keep a journal of the positive changes she sees so when it seems your husband is not making progress she has something to remind herself of the good that has happened. Because of the way you were both raised, you and your husband have a lot of learning and growing to do. Just keep moving in the right direction and do not give up. Eventually your husband will thank you and your daughter will benefit greatly.

posyplanter, You said It is likely that you are functioning this same way in your relationship with your husband and the reason you are so exhausted. Many of us have operated this way with the same depressing results. Pebbles said Satan has deceived many of us in subtle ways, he takes truth and twists it slightly so we try so hard to live by his lies thinking it is truth. Many of us wives have believed that if we submitted enough or prayed and fasted enough then our marriages would improve. Ephesians 5:23 tells us the husband is the "head" which means life source (not big boss.) The life of the marriage is initiated through the husband as the life of the church is initiated through Christ. In Ephesians 5:33 wives are told to respect their husbands, so women focus on that. Of course just before that that the husband is told to love his wife as he loves himself. And also note that the preceding eight verses tell the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Go back to verse 21 of the same chapter where we are told to submit to one another. Verse 24 tells wives to submit to their husbands as the church does to Christ. What did Christ do first? Lay his life down for the church. We women put so much effort into trying to make ourselves good enough wives, praying that God will change us so we can have a good marriage. But Satan has had us deceived, our husbands must love us as Christ loved the church, the respect of the wives is to follow, not the other way around. First things first, when we try to do it backwards it doesn't quite work properly, or maybe not at all. If your husband will initiate things that nurture your relationship then you will experience a fulfilling marriage. God created woman to complement man and it is a very good thing when we function by His design. We were made to be different and work together in harmony. (The definition of Complement- a thing that completes or brings to perfection. Isn't that great?) We must learn Truth, we must no longer try so hard to live according the the twisted lies that "the father of lies" uses to keep us bound and ineffective. It is time to begin living in God's Truth.

SW, Give your husband the Validation information printed out on paper. It gives instructions on how he can learn to listen to your heart. He can use it to build a better relationship with your son as well. I realize this is one simple little suggestion in a complex problem, but if your husband is willing it can help make a positive change.

Ulysee, You said: I agree with MaryJane. Your wife is hurting so much more than a man can understand, but many of us wives have been in a similar place and know why she could get to this place of seeking a divorce that is out of character for her. My husband was studying to be a pastor when we married. I knew that life would be full of challenges but believed that with a man who was committing his life to serving God we could conquer anything that came our way. What I did not understand then, but is clear to me now, is that Satan craftily used a subtle lies in our minds and lives that put a division between us from the first day of our marriage. My husband did not believe in "wife only" submit and so never required that of me. But at the same time he did not ever value me as much as he valued himself. He did not see me as the essential ally God had given him. That has been a very painful, destructive attitude to live with for all of these years. If I shared a hurt with him he always found a way to blame me for it or change the subject to something else. When I needed him to care for me or give support, when I needed him to be on a team with me, when I needed a partner in life he was always busy. He made things look good on the outside and in public but when we were alone it was a different story. We did not have a positive spiritual or emotional connection. He did not yell at me or physically hurt me, he just always disregarded my thoughts, feelings and perspective. Sometimes we did things "my way" but it was always clear that he didn't like it. Sometimes we would agree to do something, perhaps a budget or an activity. When it came time to follow through with that agreement if he didn't feel like it then he did as he pleased. There would be no discussion just him doing as he desired and then treating me like I was unreasonable to be upset. I was always wondering how he would react to things. He left me to care for our children on my own while he spent many extra hours in his office, with his hobbies, or maybe sleeping in. His part in the family was making money for us to live on and after that I was "lucky" if I got his help. When someone once asked him about why I seemed depressed he scolded me for it and offered no help, physically or emotionally. I felt like I was losing my mind. I couldn't understand why I was struggling so badly while I had a husband who was serving God, healthy children, and a nice home. I lacked nothing physically but was going crazy. I questioned where God was in all of this. Why was there so much pain in serving Him? Why couldn't I be more positive? Why couldn't I be more encouraging? Why couldn't I be a good enough wife? Why couldn't I be a good enough christian and trust God to take care of me? Why was life such a struggle everyday?!!! Who am I and what is my purpose in this life? Ulysee, your wife has similar questions and has not found you to be one to help her discover the answers. Instead, you have been the source of much of her pain and self doubt. She now questions God and her faith because she has not found love and peace in her marriage to a minister husband. "Where is God in all of this?" she wonders. She needs your selfless love more than ever. She needs you to seek to listen to what she says and seek to understand her. She needs you to validate her feelings whether you think they are right or wrong. She needs you to care about her more than you care about yourself and she needs you to do this for a long time. The wounds will take time to heal. There is a great resource here on the forum that you can begin using when your wife is home tomorrow. It is in the section titled "Various Issues of life..." The thread is titled "Validation" and was at the end of the second page last time I looked. If you can learn to validate what your wife says to you then she will find healing. It can even help you avoid needing that stapler for your mouth.

Ulysee, Is it that she wants to hurt you and the others or is it that she is struggling to break free of the mistreatment she has endured all her life? You are the one who pledged to love, honor and cherish her but instead cared more for yourself, lived a self-centered life and ignored her needs. You clearly communicated with your actions that she was of little value to you and subjected her to more pain and a burden you can't begin to understand. Perhaps the others have had some influence in the struggles your wife is having but as her husband you have the greatest influence at this time. Do you want to play the role of an observer who, along with others is being hurt by your wife? Or do you want to play the role of husband who brings healing to his wife by learning to love her and lay his life down for her as Christ did for the church?

SW, There are two articles here on the forum that you might find helpful. You can find them in the "Various issues of life..." section and right now they are near the bottom of the second page, titled "Validation" and "Invalidation." This information could help you with your son and your marriage.

Key words in your sentence above are "I WILL." You must hear what Eeyore is saying when she says "shovel" and then you WILL make the choice to do what you ought to be doing; that would be treating her with kindness, consideration, and respect. It will be your choice that makes all the difference. You can do it!

Isn't it great when the family works together as a team especially with Husband/Dad leading the way. I'm happy for you! Praise God for these blessings.

Miss Jane, Here is the post from TNM's thread that you were looking for.

Miss Jane, The "Essential Ally" post is at the bottom of the first page of this thread. Let us know if you can't find it.

Mary Jane, Just wanted to stop by and offer some encouragement. That is good to hear. We need to remember the positive progress we make on this journey and not let Satan distract and discourage us from continuing that progress. Kathy told me to keep a journal of the good things that happen and the positive changes, that way we can see how much better things are from the past in the times we are feeling weak and discouraged. Proverbs 15:4 "The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life" I believe as you continue to learn God's truth about marriage and speak that truth from a position of strength to your husband it will bring healing and life to your marriage. Continue seeking God and His truth. I am praying for you.

Carnine, I have been struggling with being able to appreciate the good changes that Todd and I have experienced because I too get tired of prompting him to do what needs to be initiated by him. The solution I am not sure of but I do realize that I need to take time to be thankful for the good there is and then not be discouraged by the lack of progress. After all it took us over 20 years to get into this mess and it will take time to work out of it. Don't you think Satan would like nothing more than to discourage us and watch us give up the hope of seeing God's truth lived out in our marriages? We must continue to pray and move forward even when it isn't as we want it to be. A time of struggle and trials are our opportunity to seek God more urgently. Proverbs 2:3-6 "and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for hidden silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God." Last year my husband treated me with disregard and neglect. I was desperate for a solution and was searching for answers as for hidden treasure. I found this ministry and began to study these "new" biblical principles for marriage. At first I had to argue with my husband about them and that made me stronger, I had to defend this new truth. Now he has accepted God's truth and our marriage is better, we are able to communicate and even come to peaceful understandings. I guess I was hoping for an instant and total transformation at the same time. Well at one point is was instant and I thought total but total is not the case, we have some work to do. Ah life, it's never as easy as we hope for. So today I will be thankful for the good there is and commit myself to working toward the continued transformation with out giving up. Galatians 6:9 "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." This encouragement is for myself as much as for you. We must not give up or we will not reap the harvest of what has already been sown into our marriages. I will be praying for you.

Jaya, This is so good that Sozo acted in a mature way. It is a good sign even if everything isn't perfect. One step at a time. I know what you feel like here. It is so easy to get impatient when progress isn't happening as fast as we would like. Kathy says slow and steady is best, it is more enduring. So we need to focus on the positive. I believe God will not punish someone who is determined to serve him but is yet imperfect. Perhaps the best practical thing you can do is find biblical teaching on finances such Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace or something similar. Their is a book titled "Bondage Breaker" by Neil T Anderson that has a forgiveness exercise around chapter 11 or 12. A friend showed me this and helped me with it and I found it very helpful. She told me depression often can be relieved with going through a process of forgiveness. Finally I would encourage you to pray in the name of Jesus that the lies and deception of satan would be bound and that God's truth would be revealed. Satan discourages us with his lies such as "We aren't making enough progress." or "Getting out of debt is hopeless." Continue to pursue truth and draw strength from that truth. One extra thought- I often read in Proverbs in the chapter that matches the day of the month. There is much to learn there when it is difficult to know where to study in the Bible. Galatians 6:9 Do not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Knight, I have some thoughts to share with you about something you said in your post. You realize that you are clueless and that is the first step. The next step is to learn how to understand. When Damsel let you know she wasn't going to the event it wasn't up to you to try to convince her to go with you. It it was the perfect opportunity for you to ask her to tell you why she felt so strongly about not going. My guess is that it has not been safe for her to express her thoughts and feelings to you because much of the time you just do what you want to do or get frustrated with her because you don't know why she feels or thinks as she does. Now is a good time to begin to learn how to listen to her and how to value what she thinks and feels. The best way for this to happen is to make it safe for her to share with you. Have you seen the L.O.V.E. acrostic for listening? L listen O offer an apology V validate her feelings E embrace if she allows This is a valuable tool and will help you learn to listen to your wife and value her perspective. Many husbands have a difficult time putting their own thoughts aside long enough to hear what their wives are saying. It definitely takes practice, but if your willing to use this tool it can help you learn to understand your wife. Ask Damsel what she thinks.